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Dev blog: CSM8 - 1st Summit Minutes Published

First post First post
Author
Ali Aras
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#101 - 2014-01-03 18:05:56 UTC
Soldarius wrote:

To the members of the CSM: Thanks for the notes. Please don't continue with the wierd and difficult to read test transcript. My eyes are bleeding. I cannot begin to express how much of a loss it will be for all of us if Trebor decides not to run again. Having someone with his experience and background on the CSM is a god-send.

Bizarrely, the rest of us are all getting a great deal of experience and background on how to do the whole CSM thing Blink It's a learning process for sure, but rest assured that should Trebor depart, the whole thing wouldn't go down in flames.

http://warp-to-sun.tumblr.com -- my blog

Ravcharas
Infinite Point
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#102 - 2014-01-03 19:11:25 UTC
Quote:
Mynnna relayed an anecdote from lunch about how it would be ten programmers working for six months for 15 seconds of payoff for the players.

Is there any data on how many times a day a character swap even happens? I do it maybe once a day on average, probably way less. I might be an edge case and people are furiously logging out one char and logging in another and I'm just playing the game completely wrong, idk.

Ten programmers working full time for half a year means you would break even at 2.3 million charswaps, if 15 seconds is the average time it takes a player to do it. Is that a wise allocation of effort? I guess that depends on what else they could be doing, and what risks breaking in the process, and a bunch of other factors. Sparing your users even one second of waiting or busywork can be an absolutely massive gain if that second happens frequently enough, but without data on it it's a guesstimation at best.
Akrasjel Lanate
Lanate Industries
#103 - 2014-01-03 19:22:25 UTC
CCP Dolan wrote:
Freelancer117 wrote:
Since the CSM is the New Eden's society representation of between 50k to 60k voters,
will we capsuleers have any influence how the CSM summit minutes will be overhauled ?



Yup, I'm gonna post a ~thing~ pretty soon. It will be amongst a lot of things I am gonna be posting in the coming days. Fear my reign of terror.

It beter be good

CEO of Lanate Industries

Citizen of Solitude

Zircon Dasher
#104 - 2014-01-03 20:03:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Zircon Dasher
Just completed a skim, so maybe I missed the relevant info, but I had two initial questions:

1) RE: Player Retention- Was there some attempt at distinguishing between players and accounts? Starting up an account for some specialized purpose, then dropping it once it is no longer needed/wanted, is pretty common and potentially distorts the picture the data paints. I probably already know the answer, but it is better not to assume things!

2) RE: QEN data- Are the roadblocks to putting the in-house QEN-like data in a public facing location primarily time related? Or do the roadblocks revolve around concerns about putting that information into the hands of players?

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.

MailDeadDrop
Archon Industries
#105 - 2014-01-03 20:17:18 UTC
CCP Dolan wrote:
Yup, I'm gonna post a ~thing~ pretty soon. It will be amongst a lot of things I am gonna be posting in the coming days. Fear my reign of terror.


Reign? Reign? That's hardly even a drizzle, let alone a rain. More like a "faint misting".

MDD
Celia Therone
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#106 - 2014-01-03 21:02:56 UTC
Soldarius wrote:
If you don't like it, do something about it.

They do do something about it.

They un-sub and play a game that caters to their interests instead of giving money to CCP.
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#107 - 2014-01-03 21:25:48 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
mynnna wrote:
Ali Aras wrote:
Honestly, even if nobody from highsec is interested in running, y'all could form a union / voting bloc. With enough power, especially with some demonstrated ability to move votes (in the last election, delivering 3000 first places would have been a "seat"; delivering 1000 would have been Very Useful), you will be courted by *someone*.


Elaborating on this, a fact that is perhaps known & out there but not much commented on is that eight candidates - Ali, trebor, mike, malcanis, ripard and three of the others (I don't remember all who) all cross-endorsed and encouraged their supporters to vote for the others. In this way, they formed a bloc of sorts.

There is nothing, strictly speaking, stopping anyone else from doing this. Just need the willingness to run, willingness to cooperate with some other like-minded candidates and, most importantly, the willingness to reach out and get people who might not normally vote to get engaged.


Here again we run into the shameful inability of deomocratic voting systems to represent idle sacks of fat who can't even be bothered to spend 2 minutes per year clicking a "vote" button


As I've pointed a few times, people leaving the game rather than bothering to have their woes adressed is CCP's problem, not ours.

It is CCP who risk something if they fail to communicate effectively with their customers, and it is them who think that a meritocratic election system systematically ignored by 85% of their customers is the best way to engage the masses and adress their issues before they leave... which I disagree.

If they were engaged enough to vote, they would be less likely to leave. So in that aspect, the CSM doesn't serves to gain nor retain the average player, which is neither engaged enough to cope with EVE's flaws nor find a voice at the CSM to voice his woes before CCP.

"Huh, EVE suxx, I quit" is CCP's issue to resolve, and it can't be resolved by expecting that the exact same guy will do: "Oh dear, EVE is in a unpleasant state, so I will start a campaign to have a candidate elected as CSM so he can say to CCP that EVE needs improvements, and i wil do it because I totally love this game and I would rather do that than just play something else". Roll

Call me blunt, but if I wanted to know what my customers think, I would invite them to a private chat via mail, poll them and give them a meaningful reward for their time. I also would do that a few hundred times each semester and across a demographically meaningful section of the population as determined from my data on unique users.

But hey, that's me. I don't feel a need to brag about how precious is my algorythm to democratically and accurately represent the little minority who bothers to take my elections seriously... Ugh

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you

Chan'aar
State War Academy
Caldari State
#108 - 2014-01-03 21:46:57 UTC
Quote:
Trebor continued, stating that he did not in any way intend to cast aspersions on the PvE content team because they were, after all, dealing with legacy issues. That said, he counseled being a little bit bolder -- instead of small tweaks, perhaps they should go away for 9 months or a year and come back with a good system for doing procedural dungeons.


THIS
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#109 - 2014-01-03 22:04:06 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
mynnna wrote:
Ali Aras wrote:
Honestly, even if nobody from highsec is interested in running, y'all could form a union / voting bloc. With enough power, especially with some demonstrated ability to move votes (in the last election, delivering 3000 first places would have been a "seat"; delivering 1000 would have been Very Useful), you will be courted by *someone*.


Elaborating on this, a fact that is perhaps known & out there but not much commented on is that eight candidates - Ali, trebor, mike, malcanis, ripard and three of the others (I don't remember all who) all cross-endorsed and encouraged their supporters to vote for the others. In this way, they formed a bloc of sorts.

There is nothing, strictly speaking, stopping anyone else from doing this. Just need the willingness to run, willingness to cooperate with some other like-minded candidates and, most importantly, the willingness to reach out and get people who might not normally vote to get engaged.


Here again we run into the shameful inability of deomocratic voting systems to represent idle sacks of fat who can't even be bothered to spend 2 minutes per year clicking a "vote" button


As I've pointed a few times, people leaving the game rather than bothering to have their woes adressed is CCP's problem, not ours.



And CCP have addresed this by giving people the opportunity to be represented (or run as reps themselves).

The "If you loved me, you'd know what I want" line is laughably passive-aggressive when it comes from a teenager in their first relationship. From a (presumably) adult such as yourself it's simply pathetic.

Leaving aside the fact that after 3 years of your futile whining, you're still here.


Maybe think about your own communication deficit?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#110 - 2014-01-03 22:39:27 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
mynnna wrote:
Ali Aras wrote:
Honestly, even if nobody from highsec is interested in running, y'all could form a union / voting bloc. With enough power, especially with some demonstrated ability to move votes (in the last election, delivering 3000 first places would have been a "seat"; delivering 1000 would have been Very Useful), you will be courted by *someone*.


Elaborating on this, a fact that is perhaps known & out there but not much commented on is that eight candidates - Ali, trebor, mike, malcanis, ripard and three of the others (I don't remember all who) all cross-endorsed and encouraged their supporters to vote for the others. In this way, they formed a bloc of sorts.

There is nothing, strictly speaking, stopping anyone else from doing this. Just need the willingness to run, willingness to cooperate with some other like-minded candidates and, most importantly, the willingness to reach out and get people who might not normally vote to get engaged.


Here again we run into the shameful inability of deomocratic voting systems to represent idle sacks of fat who can't even be bothered to spend 2 minutes per year clicking a "vote" button


As I've pointed a few times, people leaving the game rather than bothering to have their woes adressed is CCP's problem, not ours.



And CCP have addresed this by giving people the opportunity to be represented (or run as reps themselves).

The "If you loved me, you'd know what I want" line is laughably passive-aggressive when it comes from a teenager in their first relationship. From a (presumably) adult such as yourself it's simply pathetic.

Leaving aside the fact that after 3 years of your futile whining, you're still here.


Maybe think about your own communication deficit?


I think of it as "if you want my money, you must earn it". That may be a revolutionary concept in your peculiar world, but that's not my fault.

Customer feedback is a boon to CCP's business, and providing it should not be deemed a privilege to be earned... at least not for a company who deals with retail end customers and thus needs hundreds of thousands of them to be happy to give up their money to CCP and not someone else.

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you

Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#111 - 2014-01-03 22:42:55 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
I think of it as "if you want my money, you must earn it". That may be a revolutionary concept in your peculiar world, but that's not my fault.

And yet, you're still here.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.

Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#112 - 2014-01-03 22:43:06 UTC
Alot of disgusting themepark carebears crying, the minutes must be great for EvE Online. Keep up the good work CCP&CSM.

The Tears Must Flow

Mike Azariah
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#113 - 2014-01-03 22:46:57 UTC
Gonna turn the light back on you lot.

OK, so they came late but you HAVE managed to see the minutes before the next summit (coming soon)

What in the minutes would you like to see elaborated on? Iterated on? Dropped?

If we didn't represent you well last time let us know what you would like next time.

m

Mike Azariah  ┬──┬ ¯|(ツ)

Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#114 - 2014-01-03 22:50:41 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
I think of it as "if you want my money, you must earn it". That may be a revolutionary concept in your peculiar world, but that's not my fault.

And yet, you're still here.


I guess this makes me a very engaged player, doesn't it? Lol

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#115 - 2014-01-03 23:07:46 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Scatim Helicon wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
I think of it as "if you want my money, you must earn it". That may be a revolutionary concept in your peculiar world, but that's not my fault.

And yet, you're still here.


I guess this makes me a very engaged player, doesn't it? Lol


Do tell us some more about how you'll complain and moan and whine, but won't expend 1% of that time or effort on actually trying to do anything useful, and how it's somebody else's fault that you're not getting what you want because they should magically know because they're psychic or something.

I got Bad News for you, buttercup: If you want to get some **** shovelled, you're going to have to roll your sleeves up and get your hands dirty. Standing around and wrinkling your nose at the smell means that you've done nothing but suck farts.


"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Thead Enco
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#116 - 2014-01-03 23:09:13 UTC
Mike Azariah wrote:
Gonna turn the light back on you lot.

OK, so they came late but you HAVE managed to see the minutes before the next summit (coming soon)

What in the minutes would you like to see elaborated on? Iterated on? Dropped?

If we didn't represent you well last time let us know what you would like next time.

m



"POS's" and if CCP rebutes with the ole "resources" line well "business must be good because we keep seeing "community reps being hired All day eer'day"
Moretic
Casual Slackers
#117 - 2014-01-03 23:41:33 UTC
Mike Azariah wrote:
Gonna turn the light back on you lot.

OK, so they came late but you HAVE managed to see the minutes before the next summit (coming soon)

What in the minutes would you like to see elaborated on? Iterated on? Dropped?

If we didn't represent you well last time let us know what you would like next time.

m


1. Leave current pve alone or expand apon it without going into pvp like crap.
2. while I must admit ccp has given drones some love its not enough, give us more!!
Haplo Nex
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#118 - 2014-01-03 23:45:42 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Scatim Helicon wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
I think of it as "if you want my money, you must earn it". That may be a revolutionary concept in your peculiar world, but that's not my fault.

And yet, you're still here.


I guess this makes me a very engaged player, doesn't it? Lol


Do tell us some more about how you'll complain and moan and whine, but won't expend 1% of that time or effort on actually trying to do anything useful, and how it's somebody else's fault that you're not getting what you want because they should magically know because they're psychic or something.

I got Bad News for you, buttercup: If you want to get some **** shovelled, you're going to have to roll your sleeves up and get your hands dirty. Standing around and wrinkling your nose at the smell means that you've done nothing but suck farts.




Generally everyone can agree the PVE content of eve is lacking and years out of date, not even trying to fix these problems would be a mistake there are tons of threads on the forums of potential improvements that could be looked at.

The CSM is not the only forum for feedback it's not even the best platform to gauge customer approval and discuss potential change.
Yonis Kador
KADORCORP
#119 - 2014-01-04 03:45:08 UTC
After reading through these long-delayed minutes, I'm still wondering what was the holdup? Where are the landmines and dropping bombs? I'm even wondering if this version is as written originally, or is this a much-less redacted version since it is being released after the expansion it references? It seems to go into great detail about the features we have already received which isn't common in these minutes. It read as familiar - yet strange - because it was so overdue.

Here's a few of my initial reactions:

p.20 S4 EVE Economy - One of my favorite sections. I def. agree with the CSM here. I think a ton of players would appreciate more frequent updates on the health and growth of the economy as a whole as this affects all players. With graphs. Lots of graphs. Even if all we get is graphs. Give us graphs. The revelation that lots of "experienced players are leaving and re-entering," the game was particularly interesting as was the planned introduction of three-character training.

p.25 S5 EVE Economy Pt 2, Player Retention - This will probably be one of the more-controversial sections. How do you accurately measure player engagement? I would agree that you can assign values to certain activities and then run correlation models with long-term subscription rates and compare what most long-term players do/have done. But its a tough sell because there has to be numerous subsets of players who are also long-term and who will not have engaged in some/many/all of those activities too. They may represent a minority, but their value cannot be disregarded obviously and knowing what has kept them playing is equally useful info.

p.28 S6 ART - "new assets that will be included for winter." "First was a facelift for one of EVE's ugliest ships" "Next up were models for a new player weapon system" As these minutes were released post-expansion, if these changes are already on Tranquility, this section could have been edited to name these items. I spent too much time trying to figure out what was being discussed. I'm pretty sure the module was the RHML but which ship is being referenced? My opinion of which ship is ugliest didn't help much. All this guessing made me remember that the Absolution was gifted a Harbinger hull this release and I think my blood pressure briefly spiked when I revisited the blocked memory of one less Prophecy hull in game.

I'd also like to mention that I too remain anti-launcher and will forever mourn the old log-in screen. That thing needs its cinematic backdrop back. If you could move the features of the launcher to the old log-in screen, add an expansion cinematic, and overlay it all with the scrollbar and side info from CCP's Twitch feed, you'd have something visually stunning, useful, and engaging.

p.34 S8 Future Plans - "If all goes well, 2015 may well be the most exciting year in EVE's history." Tease much?

p.38-39 S12 TGoD - I'm opposed to requiring cross-training of all racial drone skills for ship masteries. I'll never train Gallente or Minnie Drones to V so ship mastery, for me, is forever out of reach. But I've got it easy. What about the poor Gallente folks who are being forced to train Amarr drones for their ship masteries?

p.45 S14 T Kuromako - Without adjusting the AI on npc mission rats at all, if the spawn triggers and auto-agressions were randomized it would minimize predictability and make mission guides useless. It seems to me that a simple change like this could start boiling the frog while CCP develops a more-engaging pvp-oriented rat type.

p.49 S17 Reasonable Things - Probably one of the more-useful and insightful sections. Full of goodness.

#5 I really like the idea of abandoned POS's being removable covertly. I can't wait for more real estate to open up in the busiest systems. People shouldn't be able to anchor unpowered towers at dozens of hi sec moons and hold them indefinately.

#7 I could write 4000 words just on my dislike of d-scan alone. It's like playing Asteroids on an ATARI in a PS4 world. Not only do I think it should auto-cycle, I think it should display in it's own resizable window appearing more like sonar or radar.

#12 Recoverable implants from corpses sounds great. Miners beware! It will incentivize podding, decrease afk everything, increase the clone isk sink, and probably lower the price of implants overall, thus further incentivizing pvp.

#14 I'd like just to have the ability to drag a bookmark to a jetcan and have it remain in my bookmarks. Currently if I do this, it's gone from my bookmarks when all I usually want to do is share it.

p.53 S18 PVE - I agree with Ripard here. With PVE running most-efficiently with fittings far removed from the fittings most-efficient in PVP, the game itself is setting up one group of players to be bait for another. We can do better than that. And I too have often wondered what happens to the damsel. We don't need tons of resources devoted to new missions, but how hard would it be to grow the list by even 1-2 a year?

Very interesting statements by Affinity and Rise here: "preferred activities and sociality were not correlated, and the most significant predictor of whether a new player was retained was the activities she engaged in."

And: "Those that follow the PvE/Builder path retain at a higher rate."

I can't answer why more PvP players don't PvE, but in the reverse case, I suspect the clone timer is a larger factor than implant cost. Most high-sec indy players are space rich. They don't care much about losing implants. They care more about devoting an entire 24 hrs to a clone that isn't beneficial to their primary playstyle. More of those guys would probably roam low sec for a few hrs at the end of a long day mining if it weren't for a next-day committment too imo.

Ok. I'm tired. And I ran out of characters. So this will have to do. lol

YK
DeeJ1
BetaMax Beta
#120 - 2014-01-04 12:59:42 UTC
Mike Azariah wrote:

What in the minutes would you like to see elaborated on? Iterated on? Dropped?

Drop the new style experimental format. It was really hard to read.
Also I hope the winter summit will have more Dust integration stuff ;)