EVE General Discussion

Time to go off to F&I then!

Thanks to whoever moves us there.

I take it SMA runs tons of production jobs in factory outposts

And has plenty of miners, of course

The whole point to the game having different rocks spawn was so that you could actually do some browsing when mining and match it to your production needs. That is exactly why the ihub anom system is broken, because you never can.

Besides, you prioritize the rocks that bring you the most income.

Unless somehow the parts of the ships that you mine yourself are ... you know. Without opportunity cost.


Free

As I have said a number of times, the vast majority of players consider null sec industry broken for a large number of reasons.

I was very happen when the Mittani raised the issue during his period on the CSM.

The fact that every alliance who lives in null is 100% reliant on HS is a indicator on how bad Industry is in null.

Even for a alliance like the goons who have now lived in null for years, have most likely the best logistical setup of any alliance, have the most members of any alliance, are still reliant on HS which shows how broken null sec industry is.

A null sec alliance should be able to live in null sec for months at a time without having to ever visit HS.

You can make as many claims as you like that null sec industry isn't worthless but when every alliance in null is 100% reliant on HS for 95% of what it needs to live then how can you claim otherwise?

Also another thing, at the moment their are hundreds, sometimes thousands of ships being destroyed each week in the current null war.

Industrialists should be flocking to null in their hundreds to build ships + mods + ammo but their not. Why, because its easier and more importantly, more isk efficient to do so in HS.

I mean do you really believe that all these ships + mods + ammo are being built in null?

In an ideal world they should be but I bet that only a tiny % are, the rest are all being important from HS.

The Farms and Fields idea is still one the best ideas I have ever seen put forward in all my years of playing Eve yet the chances of it ever happening are virtually zero which is a crying shame as it would benefit so many different style of players.

Every CSM should be pushing CCP to implement this idea yet my faith in the CSM concept is not at zero, not because of the people involved, I actually believe for the most they do the best job that they can, but because CCP simply do not listen or care about them.

Massive buff to null sec industry you say and yet nothing has changed.

The vast majority of miners still prefer to stay in HS, The vast majority of Ships / mod builders still prefer to stay in HS, Null Sec Alliances are still 100% reliant on HS.

Tell you what, I will set you a challenge, to get 20 guys who currently mine in HS and see if you can convince them to move to null.

You try and convince them that Player Owned Stations are better then NPC Stations or that living out of a PoS is fun.

You try and convince them that having to dock up every time a red comes into a system, not to mine when their is a afk cloaky camper in system, never to go afk when mining, to jump into their PvP Ships (if they can fly any) for home defence fleets, to take abuse of the PvP'ers in their corp / alliance because they prefer to mine over fight is better then sitting in HS where there only worry is getting ganked.

The golden rule when it comes to Industry is isk efficiency and when you factor in everything, in most cases HS (LS for dreads / carriers etc) will win over null.

Changing the value of minerals on few rocks is not going to change that.

You say its better, prove it.

Show me how it is better building say 100 Fitted Domi's like this in a 5 days in null then it is in HS.

Dominix

Drone Link Augmentor I
Drone Link Augmentor I
Drone Link Augmentor I
Drone Link Augmentor I
Drone Link Augmentor I
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I

Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I
Heavy Capacitor Booster II
Omnidirectional Tracking Link I

Armor Thermic Hardener II
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
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Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Armor Explosive Hardener II
Damage Control II
Armor Kinetic Hardener II

Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I

Sounds like you've had a hard time.

Nice loaded question, but it depends on how you are talking. If you are talking mining for it only, then high sec cannot build it at all.

If you are talking generating the isk to buy the components though mining, then null set miners could mine higher end ore, thus making isk faster to by the additional materials faster.

If you are talking from a standpoint of you already have the isk and just need to buy the minerals and put it together, then yes, high sec will be better.

But that's not because high sec industry is better than null sec industry, that's because the market is considerably larger in high sec as everyone can trade there. A null sec industrialist would generally keep enough minerals on had to produce large batches of whatever their alliance needs. If they don't, that's bad planning, not a sign that industry is dead.

Consider the exact same build requirement, but set the scenario to test industry rather than the health of the market. A high sec player and a null sec player. Both with the BPO set to make this build, 0 isk and a Mackinaw. Both all skills level 5, and only allowed to perform industry and trade tasks. I'm fairly sure the high sec player would lose on that one.

Uhhhhh. What?

Smaller markets are in fact a better target market for trading, since there's less competition. That's why people ship from Jita to other places. Manufacturing on site simply means you need to haul less, so while the cost to manufacture remains the same, your profit margins will be larger. Sure, your volumes will be smaller, but that's why you go for diversity rather than specialism.

People sell all the time in null. In fact it's so profitable to sell in null that some people use black frog, costing hundreds of millions of isk to ship items down to npc null for resale. So that's after a high sec players has built it and sold it at a hub for their profit, someone is buying it paying millions to ship it then reselling it at a profit.

Note, I'm not saying a null trader will make more isk than a high sec trader directly. High sec trade will move a lot quicker so you can cycle your isk faster. But we are talking industry, not trade, which was kind the point of what you quoted from me. Null industry has lower overheads and access to the highest end minerals. A pure industry character in high sec, while all their slots are running can mine a bunch of scordite and whatever lucky gravs they've got around. A null industrialist can rake in high end minerals or stock up on whatever mids they are running short on. Then once all is said and done the leftover high ends can get shipped up to high to be resold on the market.

Oh and as for big hubs, the 7th biggest station in the game is VFK, in sov null.

EDIT: By the way, where is this "95%" that keeps getting thrown about coming from?

So when someone's mackinaw gets ganked, of course not the nullsec one, because blue donut nullsec is safer than highsec

Several months ago I became involved in null sec industry. I came at it a different way than most in that I inherited this toon from my daughter and she was into industry. I haven't done it much but the skills were there. What we noticed is that newer people had a high attrition rate from our alliance due to not being able to make isk out in null...they could make more isk in hisec.

I checked it out and they were correct. The buy rates for minerals and salvage were much lower than Jita. Some alliance members even had mineral buying programs for 80% Jita and thought that they were being good Samaritans doing it.

So, to help try to keep newer people in null instead of the black hole of hisec, I started buying minerals, ore and salvage at Jita buy price. Then the minerals and salvage started coming in and I wondered if I didn't REALLY need to send it to hisec but could just use it to build stuff in null. So I started building. Here are my thoughts on this:

- Mineral bottlenecks. Some minerals, like Mex, are just naturally short in supply. Others, like Megacyte and Isogen, are more plentiful. In general, Trit and Mex hold things up and Mega and Iso pile up and still need to be shipped out to hisec. This didn't bother me overly much but I also don't have production goals of an alliance to meet. This instability would be a headache.

- Miners, particulary new ones, don't really want to mine the ores that are needed. Trit and Mex are what is needed but these ores are not 'glorious' enough I guess. For Pete sake you are already mining it is not like you aren't a peasant...mine what is needed :) This adds more to the instability of the previous point.

- You cannot sell what you make for much over Jita. If you try, your stuff will just sit. People will go through enormous effort and risk to bring stuff in from hisec just to avoid paying you 10% above Jita. Hell, one guy in my alliance lost a Rorq trying to bring it in rather than pay +10% Jita and then tried AGAIN but made it. This alone would cause me to flee null sec production except I have a goal of setting a market buying minerals at near Jita.

- Coincidentally, these same people want more isk than Jita for certain items, like salvage and PI. This raises hell for T2 production as you cannot make these items paying much higher than Jita and then turn around and having people refuse to buy them at an appropriate price. In addition, the bottlenecks and **** of dealing with T2 is a nightmare. T2 barges are a great example...takes huge amounts of exotic materials when you can fit a couple in a freakin Blockade Runner and just ship em in from hisec let alone zillions of them on a jump freightor.

So what happened? I make T1 ships and T1 rigs...that's about it. You can make some isk doing it, though I suspect I would make more running anoms...but it is different and variety is good plus I do make some isk. I don't make many items, just some stuff when I accumulate the materials. I have also noticed that most of the T1 ships, rigs and the few Carriers/Dreads I make do not go to my alliance but are bought by larger alliances.

For special requests and larger orders, I am, as another poster said, an 'Importer'. If I didn't have the goal of setting a buying market for mins and salvage, and I insisted on manufacturing I would set buy orders at 80% or so of Jita and import stuff to sell.