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Crime & Punishment

 
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High sec pirates and mission runners, be aware of this tactic.

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Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#61 - 2014-01-02 18:29:05 UTC
Pontianak Sythaeryn wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
No it's spectacularly sensible, and full credit for CCP on not compromising on this core principle.

What would be spectacularly dumb would be "fixing" this feature and treating mission runners as some kind of special chosen-kind who may not be touched or interfered with, unlike every other profession in EVE.


So... if the pirate can pretty much screw over the mission runner without any risk, why is the reward in ransoming and tears so great? I only see risk for the mission runner. Doesn't the scenarios laid above conflict with the greater risk, greater reward thing CCP likes? I mean, from my point of view the pirate gets to have a grand ol time with pretty much very little risk, and the mission runner gets kinda hosed for a LOT of risk.

With that said, I've not done any of the cosmos missions, so maybe there is something I'm just missing.



What you are missing is the fact that the 'pirate' is taking a risk, he's betting against the mission runner having friends cloaked in the mission waiting for him to go suspect if he does the wrong thing.

Its not the pirates fault that most COSMOS (and regular) mission runners are asocial 'solo players' who can't even make (or hire) video game friends long enough to secure a BILLION ISK item.
Logical 101
PowerCow Farm
#62 - 2014-01-02 18:33:22 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
EVE is a game of skullduggery. If you want to be safe and left alone, dock up

You would think after 10 years of this reality that people would have woken up to it and would stop whining like little bitches every time their carebearing gets **** on by someone.

It is impossible to drive home the point to some people that the environment here is meant to be brutal, competitive and, at times, downright unfair. They just can't process it. They want their game, not EVE.

And frankly, I am disappointed that people indulge them these days. "Sociopaths". Yes, we're all a bunch of sociopaths, but at least we know what we're doing. So we're competent sociopaths.

And that's good enough for me.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#63 - 2014-01-02 18:34:05 UTC
Carnaby Wakefield wrote:
Pontianak Sythaeryn wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
No it's spectacularly sensible, and full credit for CCP on not compromising on this core principle.

What would be spectacularly dumb would be "fixing" this feature and treating mission runners as some kind of special chosen-kind who may not be touched or interfered with, unlike every other profession in EVE.


So... if the pirate can pretty much screw over the mission runner without any risk, why is the reward in ransoming and tears so great? I only see risk for the mission runner. Doesn't the scenarios laid above conflict with the greater risk, greater reward thing CCP likes? I mean, from my point of view the pirate gets to have a grand ol time with pretty much very little risk, and the mission runner gets kinda hosed for a LOT of risk.

With that said, I've not done any of the cosmos missions, so maybe there is something I'm just missing.


No your pretty much right, the mission in question spawns in a static system and is 5 deadspace rooms, considered to be the hardest of all Cosmos missions npc wise.

All the pirate needs to do is shadow the mission runner until he hits the last room and everything aggro's onto the mission runner and then the pirate just jumps in and either kills the named npc or loots the npc's wreck while the mission runner is been attacked by a host of npc's.

The mission in question semi-completes when the spawn is killed so you can't even respawn the mission again and your locked out of the chain and the mission runner takes a substantial negative standings hit.

While robbing misson drops and salvaging mission wrecks is all fine and dandy stealing specific mission loot to prevent people completing the mission smacks of griefing.


What whacky definition of griefing do you use. Stealing in EVE is not greifing any more than contesting an incursion site (ie 'stealing' the site from another fleet) is If you can't defend your loot, it's not your loot, even in high sec.

The real problem here is high sec itself. It provides players not only with a false sense of security, but it also bolsters they're belief that they are something entitled to perfect protection in a game where there is no perfect protection other than staying docked.

I say bravo to this princess person for bringing to light the reality of EVE online, one whiny Nerf Burger at a time.
Carmen Electra
AlcoDOTTE
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#64 - 2014-01-02 18:36:47 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
I say bravo to this princess person for bringing to light the reality of EVE online, one whiny Nerf Burger at a time.


I think you're just jelly of carebears.

Bacon makes us stronger
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#65 - 2014-01-02 18:38:10 UTC
Logical 101 wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
EVE is a game of skullduggery. If you want to be safe and left alone, dock up

You would think after 10 years of this reality that people would have woken up to it and would stop whining like little bitches every time their carebearing gets **** on by someone.

It is impossible to drive home the point to some people that the environment here is meant to be brutal, competitive and, at times, downright unfair. They just can't process it. They want their game, not EVE.

And frankly, I am disappointed that people indulge them these days. "Sociopaths". Yes, we're all a bunch of sociopaths, but at least we know what we're doing. So we're competent sociopaths.

And that's good enough for me.


"Sociopath" is the new troll or griefer ie it's the word that gets slung at you for simply being better at things than some people. The "pirates" the op is complaining about is no more sociopathic than the gang member slappin Hoes in Grand Theft Auto (or as i like to call it, EVE with cars). It's just that the Hoes in EVE are called 'mission runners' and have access to the forums.
Tesco Ergo Sum
#66 - 2014-01-02 18:43:23 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Victoria Sin wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Nerf Burger wrote:
"Please note that the possibility of losing mission items through theft, damage, sale, or other means is considered an inherent risk in accepting work from agents"-GM


I realise that this is new and shocking to you, but this has been common knowledge since forever.

Still, congratulations on expanding your understanding of the game.


So? That doesn't mean it isn't spectacularly dumb in terms of game design, like quite a few things in Eve. THIS is what the OP is suggesting.


No it's spectacularly sensible, and full credit for CCP on not compromising on this core principle.

What would be spectacularly dumb would be "fixing" this feature and treating mission runners as some kind of special chosen-kind who may not be touched or interfered with, unlike every other profession in EVE.


Station trading isn't a profession then?
Carmen Electra
AlcoDOTTE
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#67 - 2014-01-02 18:49:48 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
"Sociopath" is the new troll or griefer ie it's the word that gets slung at you for simply being better at things than some people.


Um, no. Lots of "l33t PvPurs" are some of the most risk-averse people I've ever encountered. EVE inevitably encourages players to be sociopaths and griefers, but there's still a wide spectrum of this behavior.

When I'm roaming with my gang, it's not like we pass on easy kills. (Except miners and haulers. Anslo, Y U DO DIS? Sad). But we also are happy to engage even when the odds are against us. Many players in this game will not "play" the game unless the deck is mercilessly stacked in their favor.

What's being described in this thread I think easily qualifies as being "griefing" even if it is "legitimate". Just like the anti-ganker who sits on the Urlen gate in his Onyx exploiting the unholy hell out of the game mechanics.

Bacon makes us stronger
Logical 101
PowerCow Farm
#68 - 2014-01-02 19:00:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Logical 101
Carmen Electra wrote:
Many players in this game will not "play" the game unless the deck is mercilessly stacked in their favor.

There is a difference between bravery and idiocy. Engaging a gang that can clearly wipe you out because it has a format that you can't counter, either mathematically or tactically, is a dumb idea. Engaging a larger but structurally weaker force is a show of good decision making on your part. This has nothing to do, however, with the topic at hand.

Carmen Electra wrote:
What's being described in this thread I think easily qualifies as being "griefing" even if it is "legitimate".

If by "legitimate" you mean "not against the rules", then there is no debate to be had. If you are unable to learn from (and compensate for) grief tactics, then the failing is ultimately yours, as it has always been.
Pontianak Sythaeryn
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#69 - 2014-01-02 19:04:06 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
What you are missing is the fact that the 'pirate' is taking a risk, he's betting against the mission runner having friends cloaked in the mission waiting for him to go suspect if he does the wrong thing.

Its not the pirates fault that most COSMOS (and regular) mission runners are asocial 'solo players' who can't even make (or hire) video game friends long enough to secure a BILLION ISK item.


So... by your own words, the pirate is taking a risk... a small one, because most mission runners don't run with a compliment of friends.

While it's not the pirates fault, it's something the pirate knows is true and thus once again... small risk vs great reward.

With all of this said, knowing the pirate will be counting on my doing this solo, when I decide to do this mission, I'll be sure and bring some friends cloaked and pop the weasel. Pirate tears are best tears.
Carmen Electra
AlcoDOTTE
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#70 - 2014-01-02 19:04:41 UTC
Logical 101 wrote:
There is a difference between bravery and idiocy. Engaging a gang that can clearly wipe you out because it has a format that you can't counter, either mathematically or tactically, is a dumb idea. Engaging a larger but structurally weaker force is a show of good decision making on your part. This is nothing to do, however, with the topic at hand.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sportsmanship

Logical 101 wrote:
If by "legitimate" you mean "not against the rules", then there is no debate to be had. If you are unable to learn and compensate for grief tactics, then the failing is ultimately yours, as it has always been.


Why does everything have to be about "fail" and it's opposite? It's a game for crying out loud.

Bacon makes us stronger
Logical 101
PowerCow Farm
#71 - 2014-01-02 19:08:23 UTC
Carmen Electra wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sportsmanship

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_sense

Carmen Electra wrote:
Why does everything have to be about "fail" and it's opposite? It's a game for crying out loud.

And a damn good one, because it does not pander to the lowest common gaming denominator.

Again, if you fail to recognize the nature of your environment, you are doomed to lament your lack of success therein.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#72 - 2014-01-02 19:10:25 UTC
Pontianak Sythaeryn wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
What you are missing is the fact that the 'pirate' is taking a risk, he's betting against the mission runner having friends cloaked in the mission waiting for him to go suspect if he does the wrong thing.

Its not the pirates fault that most COSMOS (and regular) mission runners are asocial 'solo players' who can't even make (or hire) video game friends long enough to secure a BILLION ISK item.


So... by your own words, the pirate is taking a risk... a small one, because most mission runners don't run with a compliment of friends.

While it's not the pirates fault, it's something the pirate knows is true and thus once again... small risk vs great reward.

With all of this said, knowing the pirate will be counting on my doing this solo, when I decide to do this mission, I'll be sure and bring some friends cloaked and pop the weasel. Pirate tears are best tears.


Exactly how much risk is the mission runner doing a billion isk mission in high sec taking vs the reward?
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#73 - 2014-01-02 19:11:39 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Pontianak Sythaeryn wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
What you are missing is the fact that the 'pirate' is taking a risk, he's betting against the mission runner having friends cloaked in the mission waiting for him to go suspect if he does the wrong thing.

Its not the pirates fault that most COSMOS (and regular) mission runners are asocial 'solo players' who can't even make (or hire) video game friends long enough to secure a BILLION ISK item.

So... by your own words, the pirate is taking a risk... a small one, because most mission runners don't run with a compliment of friends.

While it's not the pirates fault, it's something the pirate knows is true and thus once again... small risk vs great reward.

With all of this said, knowing the pirate will be counting on my doing this solo, when I decide to do this mission, I'll be sure and bring some friends cloaked and pop the weasel. Pirate tears are best tears.

Exactly how much risk is the mission runner doing a billion isk mission in high sec taking vs the reward?

MAXIMUM RISK from gankers

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Pipa Porto
#74 - 2014-01-02 19:11:59 UTC
Nerf Burger wrote:
No, it wouldn't because pirates could still steal mission loot.

Next fail argument.

Try again. Why should pirates be allowed to steal/blow up your required mission items in high sec with zero risk and zero cost to themselves if they should fail? What does that bring to the game?


Every other profession in the game can have its progression entirely disrupted by other players. Why should mission running be special?

Failure is a cost, so... there you go. It's not risk or cost free.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Nerf Burger
Doomheim
#75 - 2014-01-02 19:13:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Nerf Burger
Jenn aSide wrote:


What you are missing is the fact that the 'pirate' is taking a risk,



Jenn aSide wrote:

"Sociopath" is the new troll or griefer ie it's the word that gets slung at you for simply being better at things than some people.





The things you tell yourself seriously makes me laugh. Lol

Would you really say that EVE has no game mechanics that would attract sociopaths?

Actually, don't answer that. We have heard enough of your non-sense.
Logical 101
PowerCow Farm
#76 - 2014-01-02 19:19:05 UTC
Nerf Burger wrote:
The things you tell yourself seriously makes me laugh. Lol

Your thread has produced more than a few chuckles thus far.

PS - Your head is too small for those sunglasses.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#77 - 2014-01-02 19:19:12 UTC
Carmen Electra wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
"Sociopath" is the new troll or griefer ie it's the word that gets slung at you for simply being better at things than some people.


Um, no. Lots of "l33t PvPurs" are some of the most risk-averse people I've ever encountered. EVE inevitably encourages players to be sociopaths and griefers, but there's still a wide spectrum of this behavior.

When I'm roaming with my gang, it's not like we pass on easy kills. (Except miners and haulers. Anslo, Y U DO DIS? Sad). But we also are happy to engage even when the odds are against us. Many players in this game will not "play" the game unless the deck is mercilessly stacked in their favor.

What's being described in this thread I think easily qualifies as being "griefing" even if it is "legitimate". Just like the anti-ganker who sits on the Urlen gate in his Onyx exploiting the unholy hell out of the game mechanics.


Nonsense, greifing is simply harrassing another player. By definition, you can't be griefed by having an item stolen from one mission. By your definition the guy who warped into my mission in Osmon last night tryign to bait me into getting killed was griefing me. He wasn't, he was just playing the game like I was.

The difference between me and the OP is that I understand the game. When I did the Caldari Cosmos missions a few years ago I saw combat probs on scan while doing the last mission to get the Michi implant. I just hurried up and finished, got out as the bad guys were warping in. I wasn't so lucky while doing Minmatar cosmos a couple times.

It never once occurred to me to run to mommy (ccp) with a petition or forum post, the win/lose nature of EVE was understood before I downloaded it.

The problem is the game mechanics, it's unreasonable and unrealistic expectations from some who play in high sec.
Nerf Burger
Doomheim
#78 - 2014-01-02 19:23:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Nerf Burger
Logical 101 wrote:
Nerf Burger wrote:
The things you tell yourself seriously makes me laugh. Lol

Your thread has produced more than a few chuckles thus far.

PS - Your head is too small for those sunglasses.


Try not to be so obviously mad and maybe someone will take you seriously if in the unlikely event you ever come up with a decent argument.
Logical 101
PowerCow Farm
#79 - 2014-01-02 19:25:22 UTC
Nerf Burger wrote:
Try not to be so obviously mad and maybe someone will take you seriously if you ever come up with a decent argument.

An excellent retort.

And I like how you greased over the multitude of decent arguments presented.

Revisionism is a wonderful thing, isn't it?
Nerf Burger
Doomheim
#80 - 2014-01-02 19:26:05 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Nerf Burger wrote:
No, it wouldn't because pirates could still steal mission loot.

Next fail argument.

Try again. Why should pirates be allowed to steal/blow up your required mission items in high sec with zero risk and zero cost to themselves if they should fail? What does that bring to the game?


Every other profession in the game can have its progression entirely disrupted by other players. Why should mission running be special?

Failure is a cost, so... there you go. It's not risk or cost free.


Try harder with your hair slicing Pipa. You are pathetic.