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Dreadnoughts. Lost glory.

First post
Author
Alice Loreley
Citadel Technologies Unit
#1 - 2013-12-30 12:18:04 UTC
Once upon the time EVE was a shiny brilliant, created with an understanding of science fiction. Every detail was logical and well fitted to an entire mechanism.
But after the begining of new era we find ourself cutted of from old traditions. We lost our roots.

I don't know who is this new genius, who decide himself (or herself) clever enough to overwrite the laws of science fictions and basics of gamedesign. I don't want to know. And don't want to judge this person.

But i wish to ask you - what about his next step? We already have Bastion modules and Mobile depots working on "holy spirit". No fuel needed.
3000 m3 structure with 50m3 volume if packed. Foil?


And as the final mark - we have the mightiest capital ships completely defenceless against some sort of very fast and small enemies. Because they lost their dronebays. Explain me please - are the starship engineers complete idiots? In all 4 empires? Or maybe we should fit some space elves with mighty bows on their armor to oppose a stealthbombers?
If you're not able to follow a simple logic, maybe you should not design any games with scientific basement? Or maybe not? Who knows...

EVE Online: Black Hole. Coming really soon.

And... Oh, yeah, small secret - Drifters are Talocan.

Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#2 - 2013-12-30 12:30:39 UTC
Well after Sansha's Nation did their Incursion attack on the CONCORD base at Pearl Harbor ...

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0

Bruce Kemp
Suddenly taken over
#3 - 2013-12-30 12:43:58 UTC
Alice Loreley wrote:


And as the final mark - we have the mightiest capital ships completely defenseless against some sort of very fast and small enemies..


Just like the death star can destroy planets, it can be destroyed by a single small fighter. Big smile
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#4 - 2013-12-30 12:53:24 UTC
Dreads are still awesome, you just can't do silly things with them & bail yourself out with ECM drones anymore.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#5 - 2013-12-30 13:55:48 UTC
Alice Loreley wrote:
clever enough to overwrite the laws of science fictions


Which laws are these?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Oska Rus
Free Ice Cream People
#6 - 2013-12-30 14:59:59 UTC
You expected intuitivness and semblance to other franchises of sci-fi genere in Eve? Welcome to real Eve. Submarines in space. :D
Alice Loreley
Citadel Technologies Unit
#7 - 2013-12-30 15:07:42 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Alice Loreley wrote:
clever enough to overwrite the laws of science fictions


Which laws are these?


You actually are able to create something from nothing. Just because you can't find out what source gives you this "nothing" and how this "nothing" turns into "something". But anyway there are some rules to make this "wonder" work. You know - some specific machinery, some technical solutions, which are familiar to you in their concept.
Or as example some kind of well known technic, you're not able to make real. Dark energy power generator, railgun, antimatter bomb. You know what it is, but you don't know how to create a working prototype.

EVE Online: Black Hole. Coming really soon.

And... Oh, yeah, small secret - Drifters are Talocan.

Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#8 - 2013-12-30 17:29:52 UTC
Alice Loreley wrote:

But i wish to ask you - what about his next step? We already have Bastion modules and Mobile depots working on "holy spirit". No fuel needed.
3000 m3 structure with 50m3 volume if packed. Foil?

And as the final mark - we have the mightiest capital ships completely defenceless against some sort of very fast and small enemies.


1. They're fueled by the same magic that fuels your capacitor and your warp drive. What's the problem?

2. Regular containers are smaller when repackaged as well. 50m3 to 3000 m3 isn't a big deal. And the lunar lander was pretty much made out of foil as well. And these depots are cutting-edge technology.

3. There isn't much difference between insufficient point defenses and no point defenses. The mightiest battleship or carrier from the days of WWII could be rendered crippled or doomed by a single torpedo dropped by a 1-man fighter. Or a kamikaze strike. Also, the death star.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.

Maxor Swift
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#9 - 2013-12-30 17:33:01 UTC
The worst offender in this regard has to be missile explosions .In eve if you are small enough you can somehow be unaffected by explosions that have totally engulfed you interesting science for sure.

"What you talking about willis"

Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#10 - 2013-12-30 17:39:55 UTC
Maxor Swift wrote:
The worst offender in this regard has to be missile explosions .In eve if you are small enough you can somehow be unaffected by explosions that have totally engulfed you interesting science for sure.


This is just a result of it being more difficult graphically to have to missile miss and blow up near you. But yeah, lol.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.

scorchlikeshiswhiskey
Totally Abstract
O X I D E
#11 - 2013-12-30 18:47:42 UTC
Batelle wrote:
Maxor Swift wrote:
The worst offender in this regard has to be missile explosions .In eve if you are small enough you can somehow be unaffected by explosions that have totally engulfed you interesting science for sure.


This is just a result of it being more difficult graphically to have to missile miss and blow up near you. But yeah, lol.

I don't understand why missiles, especially kinetic damage missiles, that are guided by quantum computers don't explode in contact with the target. Of course this would negate the explosion radius/velocity numbers and would create another mega-nerf aimed at missile pilots instead of just creating an innate missile tracking/agility factor that would make it difficult for cruise missiles to impact a moving frigate.
Just my thought
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2013-12-30 22:13:17 UTC
Batelle wrote:
Alice Loreley wrote:

But i wish to ask you - what about his next step? We already have Bastion modules and Mobile depots working on "holy spirit". No fuel needed.
3000 m3 structure with 50m3 volume if packed. Foil?

And as the final mark - we have the mightiest capital ships completely defenceless against some sort of very fast and small enemies.


1. They're fueled by the same magic that fuels your capacitor and your warp drive. What's the problem?

2. Regular containers are smaller when repackaged as well. 50m3 to 3000 m3 isn't a big deal. And the lunar lander was pretty much made out of foil as well. And these depots are cutting-edge technology.

3. There isn't much difference between insufficient point defenses and no point defenses. The mightiest battleship or carrier from the days of WWII could be rendered crippled or doomed by a single torpedo dropped by a 1-man fighter. Or a kamikaze strike. Also, the death star.



Well in the case of the battleships you needed a lucky strike.. or a crap ton of bombign attempts to sink one. They were not that fragile as airplane lovers alwyas protraied them. The fact was that they ccoudl never escape from more and more planes until they woudl eventually be sunk. But sinking one was not somethign easy.. specially with 1 plane.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#13 - 2013-12-30 22:15:07 UTC
Maxor Swift wrote:
The worst offender in this regard has to be missile explosions .In eve if you are small enough you can somehow be unaffected by explosions that have totally engulfed you interesting science for sure.



It show the game represent the fact taht if you try to shoot a jet sky with a cruise missile in real world you must be incredbly lucky to hit at all.

Same way if you try to shot down a butterfly with an AIM-9X

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#14 - 2013-12-31 01:24:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Lloyd Roses
Alice Loreley wrote:

[...][mobile depots:] 3000 m3 structure with 50m3 volume if packed. Foil? [...]


Ever bought furniture at ikea?

Alice Loreley wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Alice Loreley wrote:
clever enough to overwrite the laws of science fictions


Which laws are these?


You actually are able to create something from nothing. Just because you can't find out what source gives you this "nothing" and how this "nothing" turns into "something". But anyway there are some rules to make this "wonder" work. You know - some specific machinery, some technical solutions, which are familiar to you in their concept.
Or as example some kind of well known technic, you're not able to make real. Dark energy power generator, railgun, antimatter bomb. You know what it is, but you don't know how to create a working prototype.


My Bastionmod is fueled by Joy, according to the laws of science ficion. It says so between the lines.
Conservation of energy also says that *You actually are able to create something from nothing.* is not that accurate, and not even scifi authors do that on purpose. Perpetuum mobile is a no-go. Roll

Edit: Else I'd only be aware of creating something and an anti-something out of nothing.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#15 - 2013-12-31 04:03:49 UTC
Alice Loreley wrote:
I don't know who is this new genius, who decide himself (or herself) clever enough to overwrite the laws of ... basics of gamedesign.


Game design is a very broad topic. I'd say that the logarithmic power progression (in power vs time/cost) we tend to see in Eve is pretty good design. I'd also say that keeping track of edge cases that throw the power progression out of whack is good for the game. So, if game design dictates that dreads don't have drones anymore, I'm ok with that.

Though, at this rate I somewhat believe that the initial efforts to defang bigger craft to allow smaller craft to flourish may need rolled back some now that the smaller craft have been outright buffed. I bet CCP has some hard data on that though, and will get around to it when the balancing wheel comes around.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#16 - 2013-12-31 06:36:18 UTC
Designing a game by real life logic isn't really a good idea. It's prone to power creep obsoleting entire concepts eventually, plus there's everyone trying to create pwnmobiles which is only balanced by the fact that everyone can break rules and create another pwnmobile...
Dato Koppla
Spaghetti Militia
#17 - 2013-12-31 08:12:35 UTC
Barrogh has got it right. Trying to design Eve based around real-life logic or science is just straight up idiotic.
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
#18 - 2013-12-31 10:05:10 UTC
Alice Loreley wrote:
Explain me please - are the starship engineers complete idiots? In all 4 empires?

Yes, they are. Proof is pretty much obvious - freighters.

Opinions are like assholes. Everybody got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks.

Julie Arthie
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2013-12-31 20:08:27 UTC
Depots are just bigger from the inside.
Ireland VonVicious
Vicious Trading Company
#20 - 2014-01-02 00:30:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Ireland VonVicious
Didn't you know that all the ships and structures are made out of solar panels?

Only a few items need more fuel than can be gained in this manner.
POS Bubbles take a ton of energy.

Missile DPS is based on the power of the explosion as a total.
If you are only hit with part of the explosion v.s. all of it, it has a reduced effect on the max power created v.s what is effecting you.
Which is why the sig radius has such a huge effect on missiles compared to guns.

I see no issues with any of it.

As far as dread with drones they were over powered.
They used what little resources were used by the drone bay to improve other system functions.
Sorry you don't like the engineering of the 2011 civic? Roll
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