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Discovery Scanner / Sensor Overlay - remove from wormhole
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Mr D Williams
ROOKS AND KRAKENS
#1 - 2013-12-25 21:04:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr D Williams
Please remove the overlay from wormholes, it was added without much thought behind it, it has ruined a lot for capsuleers who live inside wormholes.
Daenika
Chambers of Shaolin
#2 - 2013-12-25 21:21:09 UTC
Might what to expand upon that a bit if you want CCP to listen. How has it ruined WH life? What facet of it is problematic?
Mr D Williams
ROOKS AND KRAKENS
#3 - 2013-12-25 22:00:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr D Williams
The fundamental nature of w-space is the unknown. The space is unknown, the wormholes are unknown, the pilots in the system are unknown. If you wanted to know something about the system you had to uncover it, either through careful monitoring of the directional scanner or through the use of scanning probes. Now the discovery scanner shows you every signature, every site in the system within seconds of entering, and any new signature the moment it spawns. Even with probes launched and inactive, new signatures will be added to the scanning interface. Now there are fewer unknowns.

Fewer unknowns makes for less threat. Fleets engaging Sleepers in a fully scanned and secured system can now take a passive approach to safety. Just watch the scanning interface for new signatures and retreat if any spawn. There's no need to update the directional scanner, and the discovery scanner is already dynamic. You can't sneak up on even mildly experienced pilots through a new wormhole. And if the wormhole is old, well, mildly experienced pilots aren't likely to run sites in an insecure system.

http://www.tigerears.org/2013/07/04/keep-the-unknown-unknown-deactivate-the-discovery-scanner-in-w-space/

And a good suggestion in my opinion:

Restrict the discovery scanner's ability to detect sigs to ships with a probe launcher. This does not solve anything fundamental, but it means that at least one person in a fleet needs to use a high for a probe launcher, and that that person needs to pay attention to the discovery scanner. The average grunt in a warship should not get all that free information.
Mr D Williams
ROOKS AND KRAKENS
#4 - 2013-12-26 16:57:04 UTC
bump
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#5 - 2013-12-26 17:05:20 UTC
post with your main if you're going to talk about W-space being ruined.

Personally, restricting cosmic sigs to ships with probes would help me, as it would make it less obvious when I'm running a plex in a system. Still, I'm not convinced this is something that needs to be reversed or modified.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
#6 - 2013-12-26 21:01:48 UTC
Mr D Williams wrote:
bump


Quote:
14. Bumping outside the EVE Marketplace and Alliance & Corporation Recruitment channels is prohibited.
The bumping of posts to alter the order of the thread listing on a forum is prohibited outside the EVE Marketplace and Alliance & Corporation Recruitment forum channels. Within the EVE Marketplace section of the forums, each forum category has its own rules regarding acceptable bumping for sales threads clearly listed in the stickies.


Also, Wormhole elitist thread detected.

Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?
Mr D Williams
ROOKS AND KRAKENS
#7 - 2013-12-27 14:38:47 UTC
bump is my main, which was the answer to his question.. stop spamming in this thread it would be appreciated.

I think it would be best that if you don't dabble in wormholes, your opinion on this is not justified. Smile
TurboX3
Pulling The Plug
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#8 - 2013-12-27 15:36:36 UTC
You have a valid point, I personally think it should be reset when you have to have scan probes out to scan for that new sig... He's right wormholes were meant to be the unknown!

It has it's pros and cons, but the carebears have it too easy!

Bump!
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#9 - 2013-12-27 15:45:25 UTC
Mr D Williams wrote:
bump is my main, which was the answer to his question..


I don't believe you.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Chris Winter
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#10 - 2013-12-27 17:43:22 UTC
People who are paying attention don't get caught. People who aren't paying attention get caught.

It's the same as it always has been.

Also, if the discovery scanner gets nerfed in WH space, ore sites need to get put back as sigs instead of anoms so you'll need to scan them down. Discovery scanner working always was the tradeoff for ore sites becoming anomalies.
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#11 - 2013-12-27 18:14:49 UTC
Chris Winter wrote:
People who are paying attention don't get caught. People who aren't paying attention get caught.

It's the same as it always has been.

Also, if the discovery scanner gets nerfed in WH space, ore sites need to get put back as sigs instead of anoms so you'll need to scan them down. Discovery scanner working always was the tradeoff for ore sites becoming anomalies.


The ore sites should be returned to being sigs in anycase as the one's that form in highsec are just bonus asteroid belts for miners who no longer need to scan them down. They are not even conflict drivers as mining barges just warp straight to them and start mining stuff that is normally only available with risk in 0.4 or lower. If you ask me this makes high sec less dependent on low and null sec which is wrong and should be corrected. Wasn't it exactly for this reason that lowsec minerals got removed from highsec mission sites such as the L4's being filled with roids of Jaspet and Hemorphite etc.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#12 - 2013-12-27 18:18:44 UTC
Chris Winter wrote:
People who are paying attention don't get caught. People who aren't paying attention get caught.

It's the same as it always has been.

Also, if the discovery scanner gets nerfed in WH space, ore sites need to get put back as sigs instead of anoms so you'll need to scan them down. Discovery scanner working always was the tradeoff for ore sites becoming anomalies.

the rpoblem is NOW, its "oh hey lok,t hat si almost most DEFINETELY a wormhole rigth there in space, now the guys on the other side havent found it, but i know its there and dotn even have to scan for it, PERFECT SAFETY"

its worse than local in null
Daenika
Chambers of Shaolin
#13 - 2013-12-27 18:31:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Daenika
Sigs don't get automatically added to the scanner interface, at least in anything like a timely manner. If a new sig spawns, it'll take 2-5 minutes for that sig to show on anyone's interface passively.

You can force the system to show you new sigs by ticking and then unticking the "show anomalies" option, but that's little different than hitting the "scan" button on the dscanner (still requires active effort), and takes twice as many clicks.

Still, it's not the perfect passive intel you're claiming it to be. I could see disabling the automatic passive adding of sigs to the interface at all in WH space, but force-refreshing it via the anoms tickbox should still discover any new sigs. Having someone who's sole job for the entire night of running sites is to have probes out, running a scan every 10 seconds, is mind-bogglingly boring.

Quote:
the rpoblem is NOW, its "oh hey lok,t hat si almost most DEFINETELY a wormhole rigth there in space, now the guys on the other side havent found it, but i know its there and dotn even have to scan for it, PERFECT SAFETY"


See above. Also, a new sig won't spawn in your system until the wormhole that is spawning it in the other system is warped to. Wormholes don't automatically connect. Once they spawn, they are just protowormholes. They lead nowhere until they are warped to.

Think of wormholes as a doorway. When a wormhole spawns, the doorway is closed. The other side doesn't even exist yet, the server has not even picked a destination for that wormhole. When you warp to it, you open the door. The server selects a destination, spawns a K162 there, and the two connect. Now the wormhole can be traversed from either side, and the connection starts counting down to it's standard expiration.

Until the warp happens, though (and all that's needed is for someone to initiate warp, not even actually enter warp or land on grid with the WH), the wormhole functionally does not exist. No one can enter your system from the other side. If you close all of the wormholes in a system, including the static, a new static will spawn, and it will be the only WH in the system. If no one warps to it, the system is effectively closed until that happens, or until someone else rolls into you. However, if someone else rolled into you, it's because they warped to their wormhole, so you've got hostiles en route. None of this "they haven't found it yet".
Malcolm Shinhwa
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2013-12-28 03:34:32 UTC
Chris Winter wrote:
Also, if the discovery scanner gets nerfed in WH space, ore sites need to get put back as sigs instead of anoms so you'll need to scan them down. Discovery scanner working always was the tradeoff for ore sites becoming anomalies.


I'm ok with this. The discovery scanner was a terrible idea that was a kick in the nuts to people who actually liked exploring. Now in whs it makes it so a K126 is a better option if you are looking to sneak up on people. Even then, its only the really dumb people who are going to be out doing much of anything with a K126. Any incoming hole gets picked up and broadcast to the inhabitants, even if not immediately, quickly enough that you are unlikely to mount anything close to a surprise attack. Outside of whs it makes everyone even in their pod an explorer. Leroy into system, oh signatures.. I'll scan! No longer is every system I enter a mystery. I can see it all and decide what I want to do.

The ore's being in anoms is the symptom of another problem related to how signatures are handled. Basically all of exploration has been dumbed down. Even the new sooper secreet "ghost sites" are anoms. Wander through system, oh... bacon! Instead of spending an hour or so scanning the signatures in the surrounding systems to get the good ore for your corpmates, just fly around in an interceptor. Done in 5min and you can go get the bacon. In whs it makes miners sitting ducks. You're right that the dumbscovery scanner is the only thing that makes it worth it... barely.

The auto populated dumbscovery scanner and ores into anoms should be rolled back for all of New Eden. I know that won't happen. But they should at least be done for wormhole space.


[i]"The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in defense. The sword is more important than the shield and skill is more important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental[/i]."
Mr D Williams
ROOKS AND KRAKENS
#15 - 2013-12-28 17:43:58 UTC
Malcolm Shinhwa wrote:
Chris Winter wrote:
Also, if the discovery scanner gets nerfed in WH space, ore sites need to get put back as sigs instead of anoms so you'll need to scan them down. Discovery scanner working always was the tradeoff for ore sites becoming anomalies.


I'm ok with this. The discovery scanner was a terrible idea that was a kick in the nuts to people who actually liked exploring. Now in whs it makes it so a K126 is a better option if you are looking to sneak up on people. Even then, its only the really dumb people who are going to be out doing much of anything with a K126. Any incoming hole gets picked up and broadcast to the inhabitants, even if not immediately, quickly enough that you are unlikely to mount anything close to a surprise attack. Outside of whs it makes everyone even in their pod an explorer. Leroy into system, oh signatures.. I'll scan! No longer is every system I enter a mystery. I can see it all and decide what I want to do.

The ore's being in anoms is the symptom of another problem related to how signatures are handled. Basically all of exploration has been dumbed down. Even the new sooper secreet "ghost sites" are anoms. Wander through system, oh... bacon! Instead of spending an hour or so scanning the signatures in the surrounding systems to get the good ore for your corpmates, just fly around in an interceptor. Done in 5min and you can go get the bacon. In whs it makes miners sitting ducks. You're right that the dumbscovery scanner is the only thing that makes it worth it... barely.

The auto populated dumbscovery scanner and ores into anoms should be rolled back for all of New Eden. I know that won't happen. But they should at least be done for wormhole space.



Agreed, I can understand it will stay, but remove or adjust it for inside wormhole space at least.
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#16 - 2013-12-28 18:30:12 UTC
Daenika wrote:
Sigs don't get automatically added to the scanner interface, at least in anything like a timely manner. If a new sig spawns, it'll take 2-5 minutes for that sig to show on anyone's interface passively.

You can force the system to show you new sigs by ticking and then unticking the "show anomalies" option, but that's little different than hitting the "scan" button on the dscanner (still requires active effort), and takes twice as many clicks.

Still, it's not the perfect passive intel you're claiming it to be. I could see disabling the automatic passive adding of sigs to the interface at all in WH space, but force-refreshing it via the anoms tickbox should still discover any new sigs. Having someone who's sole job for the entire night of running sites is to have probes out, running a scan every 10 seconds, is mind-bogglingly boring.

Quote:
the rpoblem is NOW, its "oh hey lok,t hat si almost most DEFINETELY a wormhole rigth there in space, now the guys on the other side havent found it, but i know its there and dotn even have to scan for it, PERFECT SAFETY"


See above. Also, a new sig won't spawn in your system until the wormhole that is spawning it in the other system is warped to. Wormholes don't automatically connect. Once they spawn, they are just protowormholes. They lead nowhere until they are warped to.

Think of wormholes as a doorway. When a wormhole spawns, the doorway is closed. The other side doesn't even exist yet, the server has not even picked a destination for that wormhole. When you warp to it, you open the door. The server selects a destination, spawns a K162 there, and the two connect. Now the wormhole can be traversed from either side, and the connection starts counting down to it's standard expiration.

Until the warp happens, though (and all that's needed is for someone to initiate warp, not even actually enter warp or land on grid with the WH), the wormhole functionally does not exist. No one can enter your system from the other side. If you close all of the wormholes in a system, including the static, a new static will spawn, and it will be the only WH in the system. If no one warps to it, the system is effectively closed until that happens, or until someone else rolls into you. However, if someone else rolled into you, it's because they warped to their wormhole, so you've got hostiles en route. None of this "they haven't found it yet".




Except generally in wormholes, even a large alliance only has 1 or 2 people scanning with no standing fleet until a target is located. This requires a cloaked scout to enter system, dscan for locals, and then either hope he knows ecatly which anon they are in and get tackle, or cloak up and wait for the people who now see the wormholes in their system to be stupid and leave their pos without a standing combat fleet
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#17 - 2013-12-28 18:36:08 UTC
Malcolm Shinhwa wrote:
Chris Winter wrote:
Also, if the discovery scanner gets nerfed in WH space, ore sites need to get put back as sigs instead of anoms so you'll need to scan them down. Discovery scanner working always was the tradeoff for ore sites becoming anomalies.


I'm ok with this. The discovery scanner was a terrible idea that was a kick in the nuts to people who actually liked exploring. Now in whs it makes it so a K126 is a better option if you are looking to sneak up on people. Even then, its only the really dumb people who are going to be out doing much of anything with a K126. Any incoming hole gets picked up and broadcast to the inhabitants, even if not immediately, quickly enough that you are unlikely to mount anything close to a surprise attack. Outside of whs it makes everyone even in their pod an explorer. Leroy into system, oh signatures.. I'll scan! No longer is every system I enter a mystery. I can see it all and decide what I want to do.

The ore's being in anoms is the symptom of another problem related to how signatures are handled. Basically all of exploration has been dumbed down. Even the new sooper secreet "ghost sites" are anoms. Wander through system, oh... bacon! Instead of spending an hour or so scanning the signatures in the surrounding systems to get the good ore for your corpmates, just fly around in an interceptor. Done in 5min and you can go get the bacon. In whs it makes miners sitting ducks. You're right that the dumbscovery scanner is the only thing that makes it worth it... barely.

The auto populated dumbscovery scanner and ores into anoms should be rolled back for all of New Eden. I know that won't happen. But they should at least be done for wormhole space.



Barring this. At least remove minigame and loot spew from sites. All it does is make every site take longer (roughly equivalent to how long it used to be with scanning for sites you cant see. Except now your decloaked for most of the time) and since everyone and their mother now an "Explorer", removing the purpose of the proffession, the value of the loot has crashed hard. Ran dozens ofsights over 6 hours in lowsec and made barely 100mil.
Penny Ibramovic
Wormhole Engineers
#18 - 2013-12-28 18:55:26 UTC
Chris Winter wrote:
People who are paying attention don't get caught.


They do sometimes, if the hunter is skilled. But definitely not with the discovery scanner enabled, which is the point.
Penny Ibramovic
Wormhole Engineers
#19 - 2013-12-28 18:57:02 UTC
Batelle wrote:
post with your main if...


He is. I, writer of the words he quoted, am someone completely different.
I am disposable
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#20 - 2013-12-28 21:48:38 UTC
Combat sites and ore sites would need to be changed to require scanning if they made the changes the OP wants. Right now gankers can warp to them freely without revealing themselves with probes. So to do what the OP wants would unnecessarily nerf wormhole PVE and mining.
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