These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
123Next pageLast page
 

Would a more powerful server fix tidi?
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Amarr Citizen 1312151005
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1 - 2013-12-26 10:37:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Amarr Citizen 1312151005
Just wondering would a more powerful server fix tidi? Or is it more of a coding issue? Just wondering this because I got bored and started looking up super computer's. The two fastest in the world run at about 20 and 40 petaflops.

And I thought I had read somewhere that tranquility runs at like 300-400 teraflops. Could one of these super computers handle large eve battles without tidi? This is of course hypothetical.

But just curious if it would ever be possible to see the end of tidi. I am thinking hardware wise the tech is out there while not realistic for a small company like ccp to obtain and maintain.

I would think if one if those super computers where designed with the purpose of running eve they could more than handle the processing needs. And in time I think we could see an end to tidi.

However if tidi is related to some deeply coded issue I think we may never see its end..

TL:DR. Could tidi be fixed with pure power or is it a coding issue that may never be fixed?
Xercodo
Cruor Angelicus
#2 - 2013-12-26 10:39:06 UTC
Nope, CCP's pretty much already using the most advanced stuff they can afford. It's really a coding problem that will simply take time to work out.

They gave TiDi as a band aid to the problem until such a time as they have the ultimate solution.

The Drake is a Lie
Amarr Citizen 1312151005
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#3 - 2013-12-26 10:40:22 UTC
Xercodo wrote:
Nope, CCP's pretty much already using the most advanced stuff they can afford. It's really a coding problem that will simply take time to work out.

They gave TiDi as a band aid to the problem until such a time as they have the ultimate solution.

I know they are using the most advanced stuff they can afford but could of of the top 2 super computers run it?
Ibrahim Vaughn Holtzman
the holtzman experience
CAStabouts
#4 - 2013-12-26 10:47:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Ibrahim Vaughn Holtzman
Supercomputers only work great if they can compute massively parallel.

Eve's backend, however, is mostly single-threaded and scales terribly with number of cores and/or threads. It is basically from a time when Intel kept promising us that 10GHz-CPU's (single core) are right around the corner. Which didn't happen due to exponential thermal output.
Lors Dornick
Kallisti Industries
#5 - 2013-12-26 10:49:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Lors Dornick
Amarr Citizen 1312151005 wrote:
Just wondering would a more powerful server fix tidi? Or is it more of a coding issue? Just wondering this because I got bored and started looking up super computer's. The two fastest in the world run at about 20 and 40 petaflops.

And I thought I had read somewhere that tranquility runs at like 300-400 teraflops. Could one of these super computers handle large eve battles without tidi? This is of course hypothetical.

Those 20-40 petaflops aren't getting that performance from a single core.

The current 'mega nodes' are amongst the most powerful single core rigs that money can buy (actually, there's been some hardware in use that money couldn't buy at that time).

So, it's mostly down to code.

Amarr Citizen 1312151005 wrote:

But just curious if it would ever be possible to see the end of tidi.

It's unlikely that any solution will ever see the end of TiDi.

Like nature abhors vacuum, gamers tend to fill every free gap of processing power, and then grab some more.

Recoding of vital parts of the server code in combination with clever use of hardware will push the limit for when TiDi kicks in, but it'll will never removing it totally.

CCP Greyscale: As to starbases, we agree it's pretty terrible, but we don't want to delay the entire release just for this one factor.
Dante Chusuk
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2013-12-26 10:50:36 UTC
Amarr Citizen 1312151005 wrote:
Xercodo wrote:
Nope, CCP's pretty much already using the most advanced stuff they can afford. It's really a coding problem that will simply take time to work out.

They gave TiDi as a band aid to the problem until such a time as they have the ultimate solution.

I know they are using the most advanced stuff they can afford but could of of the top 2 super computers run it?


From memory no, if I remember correctly the underlying Python aspects are not multi-threaded in a way that allows you to split a solar system across more than one CPU so the "best" granularity you can have is one solar system per core on a CPU. So you'd need a super computer with in excess of 5000 cores for the galaxy alone plus the login and DB computers which sit as separate blades.

It's possible with one of the top super computers I guess but given the number of systems that likely sit empty or low load you would have a lot of spare processing power that you couldn't resource elsewhere due to the one solar system per core "best" limit
Amarr Citizen 1312151005
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#7 - 2013-12-26 10:50:51 UTC
Ibrahim Vaughn Holtzman wrote:
Supercomputers only work great if they can compute massively parallel.

Eve's backend, however, is mostly single-threaded and scales terribly with number of cores and/or threads. It is basically from a time when Intel kept insisting that 10GHz-CPU's are right around the corner. Which didn't happen due to exponential thermal output.

So a coding issue in other words? Same reason my I7 is worthless for eve client side.
Amarr Citizen 1312151005
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#8 - 2013-12-26 10:56:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Amarr Citizen 1312151005
Dante Chusuk wrote:
Amarr Citizen 1312151005 wrote:
Xercodo wrote:
Nope, CCP's pretty much already using the most advanced stuff they can afford. It's really a coding problem that will simply take time to work out.

They gave TiDi as a band aid to the problem until such a time as they have the ultimate solution.

I know they are using the most advanced stuff they can afford but could of of the top 2 super computers run it?


From memory no, if I remember correctly the underlying Python aspects are not multi-threaded in a way that allows you to split a solar system across more than one CPU so the "best" granularity you can have is one solar system per core on a CPU. So you'd need a super computer with in excess of 5000 cores for the galaxy alone plus the login and DB computers which sit as separate blades.

It's possible with one of the top super computers I guess but given the number of systems that likely sit empty or low load you would have a lot of spare processing power that you couldn't resource elsewhere due to the one solar system per core "best" limit

The titan super computer has over 516000 cores. So it seems they can make one with enough cores. And I understand that tidi is leaps and bounds better than years ago I started in 2009. But I just can't personally stand it..

While I am grateful for it as is allows my alliance to be active in past big wars. I just can't bring myself to participate in tidi..
crononyx
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2013-12-26 10:57:05 UTC
Amarr Citizen 1312151005 wrote:
Ibrahim Vaughn Holtzman wrote:
Supercomputers only work great if they can compute massively parallel.

Eve's backend, however, is mostly single-threaded and scales terribly with number of cores and/or threads. It is basically from a time when Intel kept insisting that 10GHz-CPU's are right around the corner. Which didn't happen due to exponential thermal output.

So a coding issue in other words? Same reason my I7 is worthless for eve client side.

Well, it allows you to run multiple clients smoothly. And other software as well.
flakeys
Doomheim
#10 - 2013-12-26 11:03:43 UTC  |  Edited by: flakeys
Short answer : No because any barrier that is being set will be the new norm for engagements.

If they cap it at X pilots or as seen lately X drones+pilots then the new cap will be the new norm within a few months.It's been like that since i joined eve allmost 10 years back.


Blob > hardware Lol

We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
Dante Chusuk
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2013-12-26 11:03:52 UTC
crononyx wrote:
Amarr Citizen 1312151005 wrote:

So a coding issue in other words? Same reason my I7 is worthless for eve client side.

Well, it allows you to run multiple clients smoothly. And other software as well.


This, I remember getting one of the first AMD X-2s when they came out (rather than an Intel "virtual" core), made a fair amount of difference to three accounts running ... but this was back in deepest, darkest 2004/05 ...
Amhra Rho
Accujac Elimination
#12 - 2013-12-26 12:34:57 UTC
A big part of the genius of the game is that its back-end is run on a single monster server. No other gamer really does it this way, and while it's ingenious in many ways, that single server is also Eve's biggest constraint.

From what I've read (extensively, btw), I'm pretty satisfied that CCP has thought of just about everything at this point with regards to maximizing that single server's potential. Prognosticators are saying that 2014 will be a huge year for server technology, though, (here and here for instance), so maybe we'll soon see some changes and upgrades.

There's real reasons why your Eve character doesn't do /dance.
ElQuirko
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2013-12-26 12:37:30 UTC
Amarr Citizen 1312151005 wrote:
Xercodo wrote:
Nope, CCP's pretty much already using the most advanced stuff they can afford. It's really a coding problem that will simply take time to work out.

They gave TiDi as a band aid to the problem until such a time as they have the ultimate solution.

I know they are using the most advanced stuff they can afford but could of of the top 2 super computers run it?

IIRC they're already using at least one supercomputer combined with the node system. Their tech is seriously advanced.

Dodixie > Hek
Sentient Blade
Crisis Atmosphere
Coalition of the Unfortunate
#14 - 2013-12-26 12:44:27 UTC
As far as I know, they're not using a "supercomputer" to run specific nodes, at least under any accepted terminology I have seen. Instead, their super-RF nodes are extreme-level chip with most of their cores turned off, to act as heat sinks for the individual cores which run at very-high overclocks to get ultra-high speeds, but still put through less computations a second than your high-end home PC running off all its cores at once.

The problem is in the coding architecture and its single threaded nature. Although CCP has said they have made some steps towards parallel offloading it seems the nature of the beast remains that it's single-threaded. Until this changes CCP is hamstrung - although they're doing a damn fine job of working with what they've got.

It's going to take a massive amount of work... but the other question is, is it worth it? Do we necessary want 3,000 people on a node, or should the game mechanics be altered so it's not beneficial / required to do so.
Azami Nevinyrall
172.0.0.1
#15 - 2013-12-26 12:51:09 UTC
Optimized coding would fix TiDi, but that's too hard. Here's a bandaid....

...
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#16 - 2013-12-26 12:52:14 UTC
Aside from the answer of “no” that people have already given, you don't really want to fix tidi anyway. Tidi itself is a fix for a problem; you don't want that fix removed because then the problem comes back.
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#17 - 2013-12-26 12:56:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Robert Caldera
you guys are just looking at CPU load which grows linear but ignore network load completely, which however increases quadratically with the number of clients on grid. Assuming server architecture scales perfectly (it doesnt) and you can stuff more and more CPUs into the cluster, you cant extend your network bone infinitely, things have physical limits.
Logan Revelore
Symbiotic Systems
#18 - 2013-12-26 13:03:32 UTC
It could also be a bandwidth limitation.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#19 - 2013-12-26 13:09:28 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
Logan Revelore wrote:
It could also be a bandwidth limitation.

No. The amount of bandwidth used by EVE is really, really small.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#20 - 2013-12-26 13:13:21 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Logan Revelore wrote:
It could also be a bandwidth limitation.

No. The amount of bandwidth used by EVE is really, really small.

As in playable over 56k Dialup IIRC, I've played over a 3G connection with no problems.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
123Next pageLast page