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Armor Resistance Plating - Worst Skill evva
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Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#21 - 2013-12-19 15:17:20 UTC
Motorbit wrote:

right now rah are (almost) unusable on friggates due to the cap usage. "fixing" this however would make rah - and therefore armor tanking - on friggates completely overpowered. especially in 1:1 engagements.


Not if you think about it for more than 5 seconds. The RAH is bad on frigs for all kinds of reasons, and the cap use is prohibative even without the increased usage from the skill.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Destination SkillQueue
Doomheim
#22 - 2013-12-19 15:23:17 UTC
When training a skill higher means you make the module worse it's bad game design. I don't care how you balance it, but higher skill level should never be a direct handicap. The problem really is, that how the skill works is in direct conflict with how the module is designed to work. The entire module is relient on being kept on the whole time or it loses its entire purpose, so the skill should reflect that design and not increase the cap cost/second. This isn't a hard concept to understand. Either change the skill or change the module.
Remy Nolen
Sama Guild
#23 - 2013-12-19 15:31:29 UTC
for subcaps, yeah it does suck ass. Cap pilots otoh, would be foolish not to use it.
Grenn Putubi
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#24 - 2013-12-19 15:37:07 UTC
Well, the idea isn't that the module is bad or isn't worth using. Clearly it's a good thing even though it's expensive.

The issue is that training the related skill that's meant to improve the module's function makes it harder to use not easier.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#25 - 2013-12-19 15:46:18 UTC
I got the skill at level V and I find the adaptation time very useful, and in general the cap usage is not an issue at all on cruisers neither in PVE or PVP.

I still do agree with OP, skills shouldn't generally have such adverse effects.

.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#26 - 2013-12-19 16:00:50 UTC
+1

the fact that it can be neuted off just compounds the modules popularity along with the specific skill training time and excessive cap need.. no wonder people just prefer too use the EANM II mod

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#27 - 2013-12-25 02:18:57 UTC
Destination SkillQueue wrote:
When training a skill higher means you make the module worse it's bad game design. I don't care how you balance it, but higher skill level should never be a direct handicap. The problem really is, that how the skill works is in direct conflict with how the module is designed to work. The entire module is relient on being kept on the whole time or it loses its entire purpose, so the skill should reflect that design and not increase the cap cost/second. This isn't a hard concept to understand. Either change the skill or change the module.


You do know that it's also this way with armor repairers? The higher your repair systems skill the faster they cycle and the more cap they use.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#28 - 2013-12-25 03:51:38 UTC
IIshira wrote:
Destination SkillQueue wrote:
When training a skill higher means you make the module worse it's bad game design. I don't care how you balance it, but higher skill level should never be a direct handicap. The problem really is, that how the skill works is in direct conflict with how the module is designed to work. The entire module is relient on being kept on the whole time or it loses its entire purpose, so the skill should reflect that design and not increase the cap cost/second. This isn't a hard concept to understand. Either change the skill or change the module.


You do know that it's also this way with armor repairers? The higher your repair systems skill the faster they cycle and the more cap they use.


It makes sense to train Repair Systems higher, because the shorter cycle time makes your tank that much better. Just as training Rapid Firing to V is good because it increases your DPS. On the other hand, the OP's point is that Training Armor Resistance Phasing does not really make the module substantially better.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Xe'Cara'eos
A Big Enough Lever
#29 - 2013-12-25 04:03:08 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:
Increasing a skill should always make you a better pilot.

There should never be a skill that has some sort of trade-off where you wonder if skilling it higher will make you a worse pilot.

Never, ever.

Poorly designed skill, and needs to be reworked.

After all, they are called skills, not disabilities.


THIS
+1

For posting an idea into F&I: come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it..... If your idea can be abused, it [u]WILL[/u] be.
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#30 - 2013-12-25 04:07:19 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
IIshira wrote:
Destination SkillQueue wrote:
When training a skill higher means you make the module worse it's bad game design. I don't care how you balance it, but higher skill level should never be a direct handicap. The problem really is, that how the skill works is in direct conflict with how the module is designed to work. The entire module is relient on being kept on the whole time or it loses its entire purpose, so the skill should reflect that design and not increase the cap cost/second. This isn't a hard concept to understand. Either change the skill or change the module.


You do know that it's also this way with armor repairers? The higher your repair systems skill the faster they cycle and the more cap they use.


It makes sense to train Repair Systems higher, because the shorter cycle time makes your tank that much better. Just as training Rapid Firing to V is good because it increases your DPS. On the other hand, the OP's point is that Training Armor Resistance Phasing does not really make the module substantially better.


The whole point of a Reactive Armor Hardener is it reacts to the incoming damage type. Hence the name.

Having that skill at level 5 means it's going to "react" twice as fast to the incoming damage type. I'm not sure what yours or the OP's idea of "substantially better" is but working twice as fast sure qualifies in my book.
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#31 - 2013-12-25 04:11:45 UTC
One might have a valid argument that the module uses too much cap but I don't see any argument about how this skill works. It makes the module change resists faster at the cost of more cap. Exactly the same as repair systems makes an armor repper repair more armor at the cost of more cap.

How is it worse to have it change resistance faster? Yes it uses more cap but it works BETTER doing so.
Daenika
Chambers of Shaolin
#32 - 2013-12-25 05:49:30 UTC
IIshira wrote:
One might have a valid argument that the module uses too much cap but I don't see any argument about how this skill works. It makes the module change resists faster at the cost of more cap. Exactly the same as repair systems makes an armor repper repair more armor at the cost of more cap.

How is it worse to have it change resistance faster? Yes it uses more cap but it works BETTER doing so.


Problem is the timing. A repair system works faster for the entire fight. A turret works faster for the entire fight. A RAH only works faster until its at optimal resists, at which point it's nothing more than a hardener tailored to those resists.

If you're taking variable damage over the course of a fight, sure, it's fantastic, but if it's just there to tailor your resists to your single opponent, that skill only benefits you for the first ~minute of the fight, after which it's purely a penalty. The same cannot be said of repair, boost, or turret systems.
Sarah Nahrnid
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#33 - 2013-12-25 12:37:29 UTC
Destriouth Hollow wrote:
I am a heavy user of the "Reactor Armor Plating" in small-scale/solo PvP.
These fights usually last several minutes, because that's how long the cap-boosters last. Once you run out of cap-boosters however your dead!

:words:

The skill is therefore for most uses really bad for smaller ships and needs fixing, to bring the cap-need in line with the cycle time.


As I literally JUST checked that very same skill here is what I was greeted with:
Reduces duration time of Reactive Armor Hardeners by 10% per level and capacitor need by 5% per level.

Now, on the attributes page, we're greeted with the following:
Capacitor Need Bonus -5 %

So, fixed long ago friend +1 though
Xe'Cara'eos
A Big Enough Lever
#34 - 2013-12-25 13:56:31 UTC
Sarah Nahrnid wrote:
Destriouth Hollow wrote:
I am a heavy user of the "Reactor Armor Plating" in small-scale/solo PvP.
These fights usually last several minutes, because that's how long the cap-boosters last. Once you run out of cap-boosters however your dead!

:words:

The skill is therefore for most uses really bad for smaller ships and needs fixing, to bring the cap-need in line with the cycle time.


As I literally JUST checked that very same skill here is what I was greeted with:
Reduces duration time of Reactive Armor Hardeners by 10% per level and capacitor need by 5% per level.

Now, on the attributes page, we're greeted with the following:
Capacitor Need Bonus -5 %

So, fixed long ago friend +1 though


I'm sorry - the attributes of what?

from what I'm seeing - your cap need is going up by 25% a level still

For posting an idea into F&I: come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it..... If your idea can be abused, it [u]WILL[/u] be.
TeeKay Latef
Seraphim Ltd
#35 - 2013-12-25 14:33:58 UTC
+1 to op

Best thing to do atm is to train the skill to 2 or 3 and overload the module at the beginning of the fight for 2 or 3 cycles.

Even if cap was reduced, it would still eat enough and cycle to slow for frig battles.

Granted there are modules that need more cap with higher skills, but their bonus provided due to the higher cycle time is weights more than the disadvantage.

CCP please fix and give us a T2 version with 20% to make all shield users cry.
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#36 - 2013-12-25 15:00:29 UTC
Daenika wrote:
IIshira wrote:
One might have a valid argument that the module uses too much cap but I don't see any argument about how this skill works. It makes the module change resists faster at the cost of more cap. Exactly the same as repair systems makes an armor repper repair more armor at the cost of more cap.

How is it worse to have it change resistance faster? Yes it uses more cap but it works BETTER doing so.


Problem is the timing. A repair system works faster for the entire fight. A turret works faster for the entire fight. A RAH only works faster until its at optimal resists, at which point it's nothing more than a hardener tailored to those resists.

If you're taking variable damage over the course of a fight, sure, it's fantastic, but if it's just there to tailor your resists to your single opponent, that skill only benefits you for the first ~minute of the fight, after which it's purely a penalty. The same cannot be said of repair, boost, or turret systems.


You do have a valid point there. Maybe the thing needs to stop using cap once it stops changing resists. I would guess this would be too complicated on the server end though.

I would say that having it react faster would still outweigh the extra cap it uses. Of course everything is situation in Eve but most PVP fights I've been in went by in a few minutes. You either die horribly or you kill the enemy fleet. I do know some battles last longer so maybe in that situation a RAH isn't the best choice.
Sal Landry
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#37 - 2013-12-25 15:00:35 UTC
While we're at it can Tactical Shield Manipulation be changed to something that isn't counterproductive for actually tanking?
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#38 - 2013-12-25 15:03:38 UTC
Sal Landry wrote:
While we're at it can Tactical Shield Manipulation be changed to something that isn't counterproductive for actually tanking?


This is an interesting skill. You have to get it to level 4 for the T2 module but from what I've been told at level 5 it's actually worse on everything sub capital. I'm not sure if that's 100% true though.
Daenika
Chambers of Shaolin
#39 - 2013-12-25 16:16:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Daenika
Quote:
This is an interesting skill. You have to get it to level 4 for the T2 module but from what I've been told at level 5 it's actually worse on everything sub capital. I'm not sure if that's 100% true though.


It pretty much is. Thing is, if you're shield tanking, shield regen is still a respectable portion of your tank (and all of it, if you're a passive shield tank). Shield regen is at its maximum at 29.29%, and falls fairly sharply thereafter. Without Tactical Shield Manipulation, you effectively have a chance, as a shield-tank, for part of your damage to no be taken by the shield and instead be taken by the armor, allowing your shield level to remain higher and thus your shield regen to remain higher. Net result is more tank, even if it also means you have to repair your ship when you dock up next.

For an armor tank, it's an even bigger deal. That shield regen is basically throw-away damage reduction. The more damage that's absorbed by your shield, the less you have to repair in your armor. As a result, keeping your shield level higher is better, as it results in more shield regen, and thus more effective damage reduction as your shield eats part of the incoming damage. The beautiful part of this is that you can never overdo this effect. If your shield regen is higher than the damage the shield is taking, your shield will exceed 25% and suddenly start absorbing all of the damage until it drops back under 25% again.

Tactical Shield Manipulation kills this effect.

I guess that's something to be said, though. At least the RAH doesn't actually require Armor Resistance Phasing. You can leave it untrained or at 0. Shield tankers must train Tactical Shield Manipulation to 4 to even use T2 hardeners.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#40 - 2013-12-26 01:11:00 UTC
The key difference between repair systems that cycle faster as the skill level gets higher and the Adaptive Hardener that cycles faster as the skill gets higher is that armor repairers can be pulsed. This mitigates the effect partially, if not completely.

The Adaptive Hardener, as so many have said, cannot be pulsed and so you are forced to deal with the monumentally higher cap drain.

It should be -10% cap use per level, not -5%.
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