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[Rubicon] Rapid Missile Launchers - v2

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Klister Ethelred
Parallax Shift
#3661 - 2013-12-23 17:34:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Klister Ethelred
Quote:

Activision time for missile Launcher T2 at level five: 4.74 seconds
Caldari Navy Scourge, Max Velocity 9675/second, Max range 94,3 Km
Scourge Precision heavy missile Max Velocity 9675/second, Max range 41,3 Km

Meaning 94300/9675 = 9.75 seconds of travel time to max range + 4,74 seconds launcher rof
= 14,49 seconds from one shot fired to the next one reaches the same max range.
MWD activation time 10 seconds see a connection?



It takes about 9.75 seconds for the first volley to arrive at max range. Each additional volley arrives 4.74 seconds later.

Bad math is bad.



Activision {Noun} A video game publisher that makes Tier 2 missile launchers for ships in the Eve universe. See also: activation.

"I'd rather be pissed off then pissed on"

"This is one of those times when it's important to know the difference between 'then' and 'than'."
Chrom Shakiel
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#3662 - 2013-12-23 19:49:02 UTC
Klister Ethelred wrote:
Quote:

Activision time for missile Launcher T2 at level five: 4.74 seconds
Caldari Navy Scourge, Max Velocity 9675/second, Max range 94,3 Km
Scourge Precision heavy missile Max Velocity 9675/second, Max range 41,3 Km

Meaning 94300/9675 = 9.75 seconds of travel time to max range + 4,74 seconds launcher rof
= 14,49 seconds from one shot fired to the next one reaches the same max range.
MWD activation time 10 seconds see a connection?



It takes about 9.75 seconds for the first volley to arrive at max range. Each additional volley arrives 4.74 seconds later.

Bad math is bad.



Activision {Noun} A video game publisher that makes Tier 2 missile launchers for ships in the Eve universe. See also: activation.


I never claimed to be good at english but point is target can still pulse its MWD where the only affected weapon system is missiles in that situation.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#3663 - 2013-12-24 01:00:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Bouh Revetoile
Remember destroyers : they are the frigate klling weapon of choice, not RLML on a cruiser.

@Sgt Ocker : I'm not saying you should use HAML the way you used RLML, I'm saying the regular medium missile systems are HAML and HML, not RLML which are a specialized weapon system designed to kill frigates. You picked a short range turret as example because that's the main turrets people use most of the time. When fitting turrets, you use LR turrets only when you need range. And you picked this one because, I guess, in your mind, RLML was the standard medium missile launcher.
But RLML aren't the standard missile launcher, they are a specialized weapon system designed to kill frigates.

And as it have been showed, RLML do kill frigates, even if it's not good enough for the adept of the old version which was OP. Remember : destroyers should be the best weapon to kill frigates, not a cruiser.

Chrom Shakiel wrote:
I never claimed to be good at english but point is target can still pulse its MWD where the only affected weapon system is missiles in that situation.
Your "trick" will only work for the first volley and will probably be more harmful than anything else in the long run. HML are a long range weapon system and these are rarely useful when you are alone.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#3664 - 2013-12-24 01:11:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitch Kaneland
Sgt Ocker wrote:

53% EXP resist is a gaping resist hole when getting hit with EXP ammo. I won't undock a ship with a single resist below 60 and that is on the low side.


No, 53% is not gaping. Its 50%, or HALF of the damage reduced.

Don't undock below 60% you say? So.. whats this?

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=21333702

And wait, that was 3 days ago! So you will undock a pvp frigate with resists below 60%... like 85% of every other person who flies a t1 frigate. Again, nice try at trying to to skew the arguement. I also see you have no kills, at all. 1 Death. And you're trying to lecture me on missiles and how they hit when i've lost and killed ships with and against missiles.. what?

Sgt Ocker wrote:

You have 1 unverifiable kill on a rookie toon frigate and are so up in arms about how good RLMLS are. I have to wonder what your motivation here is?
Prove your point on how usable they are, put a few verifiable kills on the kill board.


Are you blind? Do you type by braille? I've only posted the 2 "verifiable" KM's i recently got with RLML about 4-5 times in the past few pages.

And in those KM's i linked, when you click on them, its right in the middle of the screen, It says API verified.

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=21316480
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=21290751

Are you wanting me to just go out and kill people with my ship because you said so? How bout you get your high SP missile toon out there, and start trying to prove me wrong or right, by linking your KM or DM.

My motivation? Its to help keep the information clear, so a weapon system isn't buffed into OP or nerfed into Oblivion. But there needs to be a balance.

Sgt Ocker wrote:

CCP Rise, posted and told us how useful and how much fun he is having with RLML.
Sorry but I don't believe him either.


Well.. you just sit there and pout then.

Sgt Ocker wrote:

Just saying they are fun does not make it so, just saying I did this does not mean you will be able to do it again ( it might as it seems to be a 1 off, make you lucky)


Oh, that theory, right. Probability is not in your favor. You, speaking to me like you know what your talking about, does not mean, you know what you're talking about.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Maxor Swift
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#3665 - 2013-12-24 01:27:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Maxor Swift
Really does any more need to said other than 40 seconds to reload LOL there is no justification for that even if the damage was 10 times as much RLMLs/RHMLs would still suck like a catholic priest at cub scouts.

And as for CCP rise having fun with them all i can say is he must be VERY easy to please

"What you talking about willis"
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#3666 - 2013-12-24 01:32:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Maxor Swift wrote:
Really does any more need to said other than 40 seconds to reload LOL there is no justification for that even if the damage was 10 times as much RLMLs/RHMLs would still suck like a catholic priest at cub scouts.

Nope.

Quote:
And as for CCP rise having fun with them all i can say is he must be VERY easy to please

Maybe he's enjoying our torment... Twisted

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Drake Doe
88Th Tax Haven
#3667 - 2013-12-24 02:18:35 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Remember destroyers : they are the frigate klling weapon of choice, not RLML on a cruiser.

@Sgt Ocker : I'm not saying you should use HAML the way you used RLML, I'm saying the regular medium missile systems are HAML and HML, not RLML which are a specialized weapon system designed to kill frigates. You picked a short range turret as example because that's the main turrets people use most of the time. When fitting turrets, you use LR turrets only when you need range. And you picked this one because, I guess, in your mind, RLML was the standard medium missile launcher.
But RLML aren't the standard missile launcher, they are a specialized weapon system designed to kill frigates.

And as it have been showed, RLML do kill frigates, even if it's not good enough for the adept of the old version which was OP. Remember : destroyers should be the best weapon to kill frigates, not a cruiser.

Chrom Shakiel wrote:
I never claimed to be good at english but point is target can still pulse its MWD where the only affected weapon system is missiles in that situation.
Your "trick" will only work for the first volley and will probably be more harmful than anything else in the long run. HML are a long range weapon system and these are rarely useful when you are alone.


What's the point of rlmls if they can't kill frigates decently? Rlml caracals/Cerberuses weren't even the best frigate killing platforms, just the longest range ones, talwars and coraxes still have more alpha, and no caracal could ever break an active tanked frigate like a dragoon can. However rlmls opened up a niche for ships thar can keep up with most frigates. As for long range weapons being useless alone, tell that to the rail thorax.

"The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! pops more corn" ---Evernub--
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#3668 - 2013-12-24 05:49:24 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
[quote=Sgt Ocker]

Oh, that theory, right. Probability is not in your favor. You, speaking to me like you know what your talking about, does not mean, you know what you're talking about.
I agree, so lets just leave it here..

Your happy to say killing 2 low tanked frigates with ships that have relevant bonuses (Navy Scythe, Bellicose) to do that job makes RLML viable. Maybe your right, a Caldari weapon does indeed work more effectively when fitted to Minmatar ships with relevant bonuses. (Shame no Caldari ships have those bonuses, or in fact any relevant bonuses for that matter)
I've tried them and for me they don't work.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#3669 - 2013-12-24 06:03:10 UTC
Klister Ethelred wrote:
Quote:

Activision time for missile Launcher T2 at level five: 4.74 seconds
Caldari Navy Scourge, Max Velocity 9675/second, Max range 94,3 Km
Scourge Precision heavy missile Max Velocity 9675/second, Max range 41,3 Km

Meaning 94300/9675 = 9.75 seconds of travel time to max range + 4,74 seconds launcher rof
= 14,49 seconds from one shot fired to the next one reaches the same max range.
MWD activation time 10 seconds see a connection?



It takes about 9.75 seconds for the first volley to arrive at max range. Each additional volley arrives 4.74 seconds later.

Bad math is bad.



Activision {Noun} A video game publisher that makes Tier 2 missile launchers for ships in the Eve universe. See also: activation.
Yes bad math is bad but tell me.. after 9.75 seconds (plus lock time) would you expect the target to still be there or already in warp?
I can't find 1 frigate that would take that long to get into warp, so once locked and 1st volley released he has (allowing for a little hesitation) 6 seconds to hit warp and be gone while your missiles are still on their way to where he was. Even if he hesitates a little too long, your only going to land 1 volley, so long range sniping with missiles is pretty much mute. That would also make the bonuses on a lot of caldari missile boats mute

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#3670 - 2013-12-24 06:34:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Seriously… who's trying to sell who on these? They're just not that good - otherwise most wouldn't need convincing. You'll be further ahead with Javelin HAMs if you need the range or Rage HAMs if you need the extra hitting power. This is a light-class weapon on a medium-class ship, and if you run into anything bigger than a frigate and get pointed - you're screwed.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
I am disposable
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#3671 - 2013-12-24 06:40:18 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Remember destroyers : they are the frigate klling weapon of choice, not RLML on a cruiser.


This is dumb. If RLMLs aren't an optimal choice for killing frigates they have no reason to exist. Obviously they need to be balanced against destroyers, but intentionally making them outright worse? Yeah that's dumb.
I am disposable
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#3672 - 2013-12-24 06:45:21 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Seriously… who's trying to sell who on these? They're just not that good - otherwise most wouldn't need convincing. You'll be further ahead with Javelin HAMs if you need the range or Rage HAMs if you need the extra hitting power. This is a frigate-class weapon on a medium-class ship, and if you run into anything bigger than a frigate and get pointed - you're screwed.


Yeah reading through a few pages of this thread has been a bizarre experience. All these turret users trying to convince missile users that the pile of **** in the corner is a bouquet of roses...
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#3673 - 2013-12-24 11:02:55 UTC
I am disposable wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Remember destroyers : they are the frigate klling weapon of choice, not RLML on a cruiser.
This is dumb. If RLMLs aren't an optimal choice for killing frigates they have no reason to exist. Obviously they need to be balanced against destroyers, but intentionally making them outright worse? Yeah that's dumb.
A Caracal have three times the ehp of a destroyer and is faster than them. Making RLML worse than destroyers to kill frigate is the bare minimum to expect.

And yes, RLML shouldn't exists in the first place (they come from a time when the game was too different for this question to mater), that's why Rise came with a new mechanic which is still effective to kill frigates, even if you don't like it.

@Drake Doe : whatever destroyers could have, old RLML Caracal was faster, had three times the ehp and more dps. When all destroyers but the dragoon are not completely worse because of special EWAR bonus, that's not a niche.

@Sgt Ocker : missiles are not a caldari weapon per se, they are just missiles. Caldari have hybrid turrets too, and a lot of non caldari ships use missiles. The problem is that you don't like caldari warfare and lack the determination to make them work in the situations you fall in, not that they aren't good. In other words, you would like caldari to be minmatar instead of learning the caldari way of fighting.

What would be the point if caldari and minmatar missile ships were the same ?
I am disposable
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#3674 - 2013-12-24 11:37:15 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
I am disposable wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Remember destroyers : they are the frigate klling weapon of choice, not RLML on a cruiser.
This is dumb. If RLMLs aren't an optimal choice for killing frigates they have no reason to exist. Obviously they need to be balanced against destroyers, but intentionally making them outright worse? Yeah that's dumb.
A Caracal have three times the ehp of a destroyer and is faster than them. Making RLML worse than destroyers to kill frigate is the bare minimum to expect.

And yes, RLML shouldn't exists in the first place (they come from a time when the game was too different for this question to mater), that's why Rise came with a new mechanic which is still effective to kill frigates, even if you don't like it.


I tend to think the crap destroyers (ie the Corax) needed to be buffed more than the RLML needed to be completely ruined (this was not a nerf, it was a complete wreck job). But I've read enough of your posts in this thread to see clearly that you are just a turret user who has an agenda against missiles, so we'll have to agree to disagree.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#3675 - 2013-12-24 11:39:47 UTC
"No more Sticky" - This thread is officially dead.

CCP Rise came and told us how much fun he was having with his half assed idea and the rest of us just have to suck it up.

Bitter about how this worked out, you bet.


Don't like it??

Bad F%#cking Luck

**Officially CCP declare EVE as a Sandbox, you can do whatever you want however you want.

Reality is, we all play the game the way CCP want us to, from ****** TIDI right down to a stupid niche weapon system..

Do we have a say in how our game is run? We are told we do but not really


My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#3676 - 2013-12-24 14:06:12 UTC
Oh well… here's hoping for some improvements to missiles in 2014.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#3677 - 2013-12-24 17:40:37 UTC
I am disposable wrote:
I tend to think the crap destroyers (ie the Corax) needed to be buffed more than the RLML needed to be completely ruined (this was not a nerf, it was a complete wreck job). But I've read enough of your posts in this thread to see clearly that you are just a turret user who has an agenda against missiles, so we'll have to agree to disagree.
I don't have an agenda against missiles, but some missiles are OP and missile users tend to not be happy when their missiles are not OP.

The Corax for example being plain worse than the Talwar, but that's only because of light missile explosion velocity being useless most of the time because LM will hit their target for close to full damage in most cases.

If LM weren't that good at applying damage, the Corax wouldn't look that bad. Because Talwar excepted, the Corax is very good at killing frigates already, so why should we buff something already very good at doing its job ?
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#3678 - 2013-12-24 17:43:54 UTC
Quote:
I agree, so lets just leave it here..


You agree you don't know what you're talking about? Good. Stop talking. Now, if you were trying to be witty, and spin my statement. Then you failed miserably. You have not provided any evidence, just emotional dribble. You have clearly lied to try and disprove my arguments, just to favor your scenarios. Seems to me you're just talking out of your ass to make missiles look as weak as possible, so as to help push your own agenda's.


Sgt Ocker wrote:

Your happy to say killing 2 low tanked frigates with ships that have relevant bonuses (Navy Scythe, Bellicose) to do that job makes RLML viable. Maybe your right, a Caldari weapon does indeed work more effectively when fitted to Minmatar ships with relevant bonuses. (Shame no Caldari ships have those bonuses, or in fact any relevant bonuses for that matter)
I've tried them and for me they don't work.



Hm.. so the Caracal doesn't get doesn't get a RoF bonus, like a bellicose? The bellicose may get a TP bonus, but for LM's is only slightly useful. I've already proved that a caracal with RLML and a TP does more missile dps than a belli with TP, and projects it so much better. So, if i managed to kill an average frigate, meaning, ones you come across under a typical scenario, with a RoF bonused ship, why can't you?

How are the Caldari at a disadvantage, when they share the same RoF bonuses? In fact, i would much rather have the velocity bonus than TP bonus. Means precisions can reach out to 32KM, and with TP, i can do max damage regardless of what the frigate does. With the belli I have to be closer, risking taking more damage. Kind of coming back to what a few of us have been saying for the past 20+ pages. Caldari are a range bonused, tanky faction. Minmatar are the fast and versatile faction. Your ONI at least gets 2 missile bonuses. Where as the ScyFI gets 1 (ONI still gets 50% for kin, and 25% dmg for everything else). You get an extra mid and are still respectably quick. I would happily fly a caracal/ONI if i was spec'd Caldari, as those are ships to get easy fights in. People would fight those, as most aren't aware of the ONI's potential.

The only minmatar hull, that is better than caldari hulls, at least when dealing with RHML, is the Typhoon FI. Caldari don't have any damage bonused battleship hulls that I can think of.

Not entirely sure what you're trying to accomplish here. Do you enjoy making someone repeat themselves on every page? For RLML/RHML, damage bonus is king. You have an ONI with a damage bonus, 25 or 50%, respectable regardless, and a velocity bonus and 6 mids, for tank or utility. Minmatar have scyfi, 50% damage bonus, thats it. Weaker tank, but is faster. So.. do you not understand what pro's and con's are?

They both have 5 mids, 100 m/s speed apart, caracal has 5 launchers, belli 4. Bellicose has 3 more drones. You could mirror my belli fit on a caracal, and have more missile dps, more tank, same damage application (MAX) and more range. Also, the caracal is more agile than the bellicose. But, somehow, Caldari are at a disadvantage how again?

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
I am disposable
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#3679 - 2013-12-24 23:48:20 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
I am disposable wrote:
I tend to think the crap destroyers (ie the Corax) needed to be buffed more than the RLML needed to be completely ruined (this was not a nerf, it was a complete wreck job). But I've read enough of your posts in this thread to see clearly that you are just a turret user who has an agenda against missiles, so we'll have to agree to disagree.
I don't have an agenda against missiles, but some missiles are OP and missile users tend to not be happy when their missiles are not OP.

The Corax for example being plain worse than the Talwar, but that's only because of light missile explosion velocity being useless most of the time because LM will hit their target for close to full damage in most cases.

If LM weren't that good at applying damage, the Corax wouldn't look that bad. Because Talwar excepted, the Corax is very good at killing frigates already, so why should we buff something already very good at doing its job ?


Precision light missiles only apply 80% of their damage to the average AB frigate on a Talwar, and have terrible paper DPS, so no, damage application is not pointless with light missiles. But again your post reveals that you have little understanding of missiles or missile boats, and that you are an exclusive turret user. The Corax's issues have to do with terrible fitting limitations and putrid speed, not its weapons or damage application. You would know that if you had even a rudimentary knowledge of missile PVP, but you clearly don't. So keep posting your anti-missile propaganda about them being overpowered if you like, just know that you post from a place of ignorance.
Maldad Asesino
Failed Diplomacy
#3680 - 2013-12-27 07:35:02 UTC
40s reload is a crock of sh*t!

RLML = garbage status. Thanks CCP Rise, I am NOT a fan of your "fixes" or ideas.
Quit dumbing down our game by killing solo.