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[NEWS] Further Highlander Leaks Implicate Federation In Illegal Border Breaches

Author
Marnian Veroe
National Republican Party
#81 - 2013-12-23 15:24:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Marnian Veroe
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:


You have the Black Eagles. The only difference between the two organisations that I can see is that one is of the past and the other very much active, still.


Right. The Black Eagles obviously control the senate as well as the executive, and enforce their military might where they see fit.


Agiri Falken wrote:

Heh, you're cute. Never said anything about Provists hon, that's all you. And trust me... Everybody plays the black bag game, even if you'd love to believe otherwise. To their credit, the Fed is usually pretty good at it. This whole thing may very well be arranged.


As much as the kind of things you refer to happens everywhere, I do not see the point in discussing conspiracy theories anymore than pointing that your fairy tale only tromps the gullible and amateurs for everything sensational. I am not much into tinfoil hats myself, fortunately.

But if you really insist, please show us the proofs behind your story.
Anslo
Scope Works
#82 - 2013-12-23 15:29:23 UTC
Secret police with political agendas don't exist! We live in a free democracy, it isn't allowed! They're just reminding people how awesome freedom and democracy is and that we shouldn't take it for granted...because bad things happen when you do.

Right?

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]

Rinai Vero
Blades of Liberty
#83 - 2013-12-23 22:12:29 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:


You have the Black Eagles. The only difference between the two organisations that I can see is that one is of the past and the other very much active, still.


Oh really? I expected you to be a better observer.

Blaque and his Black Eagles have never come anywhere close to the level of influence and control over the Federation that Tibus Heth exerted through the CPD. Furthermore, the Black Eagles don't enjoy the slavish public support capsuleers like yourself heaped on the Provists for so long.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#84 - 2013-12-23 22:57:50 UTC
That jibe might hit home harder if I hadn't been one of the first capsuleers to take a public stand against the Provists and the CPD over the New Caldari Prime incident with the civilian freighters.

Again. We overthrew Heth, disbanded the CPD and put all the Provists out of public office.

Since the Eagles are Mentas Blaque's personal black bag and party van squad, and since Blaque is the number two man in the Federation, it's a little naive to say that they don't have far reaching influence in the Federation. If you observe carefully for awhile, you might find that the difference is simply in who they pretend to be subservient to, and by how much.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#85 - 2013-12-24 00:30:29 UTC
In response to Mademoiselle Vero:

Firstly, you should be commended for your stalwart defense against what is no doubt perceived as the pernicious assaults against your lawfully elected government and its chosen Executive representative, President Jacus Roden. I will admit to having been initially disingenuous, for my thoughts were not my own but rather taken almost ad verbatim from what I would describe as the typical diatribe from the Federal liberal media -- indeed, enemies abound in the Federation these days and the flawed bias of the liberalists, the leftists, and the secret socialists form nothing more than unpatriotic thought inimical with the defense of freedom and democracy.

You are correct, the errant thinking of the liberal-left in the Federation is often prone to wild speculation with no basis in factual evidence and often when all else fails in their assaults (some might even call it perilously close to sedition) upon the Federation's Manifest Destiny, its Freedoms, and its Democracy, they can and will resort even to slander, propaganda and wild conspiracy theories. Their lies even cross borders: Even I have been the victim of their erroneous speculation and conspiracy theories constructed out of nothing more than coincidence.

As if the fact that your organization, the Villore Accords, before it was an alliance was an initiative initially proposed by an avowed Social Democrat and Blaqueist before I acquired the stocks in his company; stocks previously held by Ishukone and then Roden Shipyards; that prior to his appointment as CEO of the company he was associated with a mercenary organization known as Privateers along with Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United who would later prove instrumental in the capture of all Federal systems in the initial stages of the war; that such occupation of Federal territory were contributing factors to the resignation of Suoro Foiritain and the election of Jacus Roden; that they all form the basis for one conspiracy or another in the minds of liberals in the Federation, but always failing to recognize the fact that I am nothing more than a humble soldier of the State and Kaalakiota.

What the liberals of the Federation will continue to fail to understand, as they no doubt engage in political fiction devoid of any true fair and balanced opinion, is that Jacus Roden is a man to be admired. I certainly can admire a man, who in his own way, defended the true libertarian ideal just as the Caldari people and the Megacorporations once defended it, and continue to defend it to this day. President Roden's defense of private property rights and free enterprise against the attempts at nationalization by a liberal and socialist in Foiritain. Indeed, if history had taken a different turn and the Caldari had remained in the Federation, I would be more than willing to support the Roden campaign through a Political Action Committee for in Jacus Roden would have been a President willing to defend the Free Markets against the intercessions of Big Government liberals, uphold private property rights, and stimulate economic growth by lowering corporate taxes and reducing the overheads of government regulation in the markets to ensure the natural creation of jobs by businesses no longer stifled by undue red tape.

Indeed, if there had been more true libertarians such as Jacus Roden two hundred years ago instead of liberals and socialists seeking to use the Federal Government to oppress that greatest of freedoms: to participate in a free market without restrictions upon equality and through ones own talents and merits be rewarded with prosperity for ones labours, then there would have been little need to even consider the Caldari secession. The coming weeks and years ahead may very well be what future generations will see as the beginning of a New Order between the State and Federation where the mistakes of the past are rectified and the vagaries of both liberalism and socialism are effectively ameliorated to provide the foundations for true accord and understanding.

To that end, I would suggest you and yours in the FDU continue to fight for the same reasons that President Roden pinned his medal to your chests: Pride. Recognition. Respect. Or perhaps tell yourselves it truly is a just cause for freedom and democracy against an evil foe -- really, whatever you need to achieve that required state of blissful cognitive dissonance.

Personally, I have no further need to perpetuate the particularly predictable and asinine little blame games and partisan propaganda for why should I? I have already accomplished the goals I had set for myself years ago, that now I can simply enjoy watching events unfold as they should and as they must be with calm grace and satisfaction at least for awhile. As for peace, I think it will come in time, just not in the form some might think it should take.

Kurilaivonen|Concern

Constantin Baracca
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#86 - 2013-12-24 01:13:54 UTC
I think it might not be so easy, Veikitamo, as one of those things you come to terms with in the Federation is the wild fluctuation in policy. While today Roden reigns, he could be voted out of office in a breath and a liberal government may be swept in. While that isn't so often the case on the federal level, planet- and system-side governments will sometimes take radical swings in either direction for some demonizing video or a phrase said the wrong way. It's simply the way their space is, and it's what they value more than anything else in the world.

I think it took me some time to realize that the Gallente people, in a way, aren't fighting for a government they support but for the government that the Gallente people elected. That's why plenty of people in those more liberal blocs are still often fighting in space in defense of Roden, even if they hate his guts. I've always assumed people did that simply because they had to; I certainly haven't always agreed with every decision a superior above my head has made. It's simply my task to do as I must. The Gallente, on the other hand, are perfectly happy to hope Roden is ripped in half by a warp shell breach and would still die defending his administration.

So while Roden may more suit your political tastes, he is always just a bad publicity photo with the wrong people away from being exiled from office and replaced by a socialist. Perhaps Gallente government isn't precisely consistent, but it tends to average out in the long term. It is wildly unpredictable, and no sooner have you found some level of federal interference you're comfortable with than it's replaced by something else.

As such, I simply see Roden's administration continuing until the economy contracts, at which point his war expenditures will be compared to the income generated by it. Once that swings into negative numbers, public pressure will either force him to consolidate a peace process or may see him removed from office in favor of someone who will.

Unfortunately for him, war economies cannot survive in perpetuity; the CEWPA warzone isn't magically gaining more resources to fight over and it will eventually cost more to fight there than you'll receive from the systems to pay for it. At that point, Gallente populism being what it is and Caldari economic politics being so applicable, you'll probably see a peace process develop from that.

In the end, I think the fact that Roden is so much like the Caldari (which you very eloquently summarized) is actually going to carry the war farther rather than reduce tensions sooner. Roden and the CEP presently have no reason to stop fighting until there is a practical reason why they should stop. It may be a long way away that they have one, as well. In fact, one of Roden's great political boons is that the CEWPA conflict is limited. Only those few systems which are under contention suffer from the effects of the war. Those outside it don't often have a reason why they should stop fighting if they could possibly one day own just a little bit more Caldari space (at which point, of course they would support a peace process).

The only non-economic reason to stop would be a conscientious humanitarian campaign, one that says fighting is wrong and we could all share. The very thing a liberal bloc would bring to the table if they could possibly manage it. That said, one thing liberal parties often have a problem doing is telling people why they should care about what is happening to people a million AUs away. One of the reasons Roden and your favored parties are so effective is because it's very easy to understand a practical breakdown of costs versus benefits.

For now, that calculation favors war. I'm not sure that a confluence of political ideas will bring peace. We Amarrians have been trying that for countless millenia, and even we haven't gotten it to work completely. You may be right that such things occur concurrently, but it may be that peace tends to force people to confront each others' views and come to some kind of rational arbitrary decision, hence the confluence of ideas. What tends to stop wars is when one side simply runs out of bullets before they run out of targets.

"What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?"

-Matthew 16:26

Rinai Vero
Blades of Liberty
#87 - 2013-12-24 03:00:18 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
That jibe might hit home harder if I hadn't been one of the first capsuleers to take a public stand against the Provists and the CPD over the New Caldari Prime incident with the civilian freighters.

Again. We overthrew Heth, disbanded the CPD and put all the Provists out of public office.

Since the Eagles are Mentas Blaque's personal black bag and party van squad, and since Blaque is the number two man in the Federation, it's a little naive to say that they don't have far reaching influence in the Federation. If you observe carefully for awhile, you might find that the difference is simply in who they pretend to be subservient to, and by how much.


Yes, eventually after he had done all the damage he possibly could to both the Federation and your own State... Heth was finally overthrown. And that last part I genuinely do admire. However, I balk at letting your claim of being "among the first" pass without comment. Heth's policies had critics within the State from his first assumption of power. Some of it was of the cautiously guarded criticism and biding of time variety Ishukone's loyalists were prone to. Other critics were being placed under arrest, disappeared, or even bombarded from orbit by the Provists while you and others quibbled on the IGS about Corporate Citizenship.

Be cautious in forgetting how long you let that madman abuse his power. It wasn't as if your friends in the Federation or Ishukone didn't tell you where he was leading.

Now, I don't mean to derail this topic from the subject of my own government's debatable misdeeds. There are those in the Federation who would goose-step their way happily to exactly the same destination Heth led the Caldari State. I only hope that my countrymen are less eager to follow than yours were.
Rinai Vero
Blades of Liberty
#88 - 2013-12-24 03:19:25 UTC
Ms Geskaarin and Mr Baracca; both of you provide interesting analysis and perspective. As it relates to shady corporate dealings or higher social and economic predictions, I'll cede those subjects as outside my area of expertise.

I will say that I find nothing wrong with attacking the policies or motivations of Gallente leaders. It is the very nature of our Democracy to be strengthened by open exchange of ideas and honest debate, not weakened by it. Unfortunately many of my countrymen follow the example amusingly put forward by Anslo earlier. A true Gallente patriot knows that questioning one's government, even defying it at times, is crucial to defending a free society.
Constantin Baracca
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#89 - 2013-12-24 04:28:09 UTC
Rinai Vero wrote:
Ms Geskaarin and Mr Baracca; both of you provide interesting analysis and perspective. As it relates to shady corporate dealings or higher social and economic predictions, I'll cede those subjects as outside my area of expertise.

I will say that I find nothing wrong with attacking the policies or motivations of Gallente leaders. It is the very nature of our Democracy to be strengthened by open exchange of ideas and honest debate, not weakened by it. Unfortunately many of my countrymen follow the example amusingly put forward by Anslo earlier. A true Gallente patriot knows that questioning one's government, even defying it at times, is crucial to defending a free society.


Even we know that. We have a blacker spot than any other empire could dream of having in our history of leadership. A cautionary tale about trusting too implicitly in the Emperor's power.

No man's law should ever be allowed to subvert the Scriptures, even the most trusted position in our Empire.

"What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?"

-Matthew 16:26

Ollie Rundle
#90 - 2013-12-24 06:07:57 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
... and since Blaque is the number two man in the Federation, it's a little naive to say that they don't have far reaching influence in the Federation.


Blaque has no official position in either the legislative, executive or judicial branches of the Federation. He's certainly powerful in other ways, but I'm interested to know where the evidence to support your assertion that he is the 'number two man' in the Federation can be found?
Marnian Veroe
National Republican Party
#91 - 2013-12-24 10:40:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Marnian Veroe
Anslo wrote:
Secret police with political agendas don't exist! We live in a free democracy, it isn't allowed! They're just reminding people how awesome freedom and democracy is and that we shouldn't take it for granted...because bad things happen when you do.

Right?


Thank you for putting words in my mouth sir. Otherwise, could you tell me when we will stop playing charades and strawmen so that we can actually discuss the issue at hand ? Or is the point of the IGS to actually turn everything into schoolyard bickering ?

Pieter Tuulinen wrote:

Since the Eagles are Mentas Blaque's personal black bag and party van squad, and since Blaque is the number two man in the Federation, it's a little naive to say that they don't have far reaching influence in the Federation. If you observe carefully for awhile, you might find that the difference is simply in who they pretend to be subservient to, and by how much.


That is the perfect example of the colossal amount of sensationalist bullshit and strawman fallacies I tried to address in my initial by using the exact same rhetorics.

Personal black bag ? Party van squad ? Really ? Still debating applying for gutter press my good Caldari sir ?

I was rather more interested in what your keener CEO stated above as something more constructive and most importantly, ten time more sensible than your usual propagandist tripe.

Now that I think of it, I am always amazed when reading the IGS how aggressive and imperialist the Caldari loyalists can be here compared to the much - too much ? - quieter Federation supporters.

While I find rather sad to see how lethargic our own ostrich supporters can be, are not the Caldari supposed to behave in the exact opposite way ?
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#92 - 2013-12-24 20:15:56 UTC
Madam, you are the proof against your own arguments frequently, but never more so than now.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Desiderya
Blue Canary
Watch This
#93 - 2013-12-24 20:51:04 UTC
You should be sad that Heth is no more. All the easy targets are a thing of the past and suddenly you might be forced to look at your own mess.

Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise.

Agiri Falken
Akagi Initiative
#94 - 2013-12-27 04:34:16 UTC
Marnian Veroe wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:


You have the Black Eagles. The only difference between the two organisations that I can see is that one is of the past and the other very much active, still.


Right. The Black Eagles obviously control the senate as well as the executive, and enforce their military might where they see fit.


Agiri Falken wrote:

Heh, you're cute. Never said anythig about Provists hon, that's all you. And trust me... Everybody plays the black bag game, even if you'd love to believe otherwise. To their credit, the Fed is usually pretty good at it. This whole thing may very well be arranged.


As much as the kind of things you refer to happens everywhere, I do not see the point in discussing conspiracy theories anymore than pointing that your fairy tale only tromps the gullible and amateurs for everything sensational. I am not much into tinfoil hats myself, fortunately.

But if you really insist, please show us the proofs behind your story.

Sorry sweetcheeks, been busy with work that actually means something to me, or I'd have gotten back to you sooner. Not much to say, really... If you're looking for amateurs, talk to most anyone here. It's pretty obvious you've got no experience yourself, honey. I've done my share of that sort of work, irregardless of whatever opinions are tossed my way, so I won't be all that bothered if you want to live in propaganda land under the assumption that Reasons make you an instant expert on the matter. That aside, i never said that it absolutely IS some sort of setup, just that the possibility exists, far fetched though it may be. Personally, I'll just out and say it... I think you're another Federation mouthpiece who doesn't care for much beyond her own opinions, so you'll understand if I chalk you up under "Waste of Time", just as you'll do with anything anyone who isn't toeing the Fed line says, and get on with more important things.
Erys Charantes
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#95 - 2013-12-27 06:47:04 UTC
Marnian Veroe wrote:
Anslo wrote:
Secret police with political agendas don't exist! We live in a free democracy, it isn't allowed! They're just reminding people how awesome freedom and democracy is and that we shouldn't take it for granted...because bad things happen when you do.

Right?


Thank you for putting words in my mouth sir. Otherwise, could you tell me when we will stop playing charades and strawmen so that we can actually discuss the issue at hand ? Or is the point of the IGS to actually turn everything into schoolyard bickering ?

Pieter Tuulinen wrote:

Since the Eagles are Mentas Blaque's personal black bag and party van squad, and since Blaque is the number two man in the Federation, it's a little naive to say that they don't have far reaching influence in the Federation. If you observe carefully for awhile, you might find that the difference is simply in who they pretend to be subservient to, and by how much.


That is the perfect example of the colossal amount of sensationalist bullshit and strawman fallacies I tried to address in my initial by using the exact same rhetorics.

Personal black bag ? Party van squad ? Really ? Still debating applying for gutter press my good Caldari sir ?

I was rather more interested in what your keener CEO stated above as something more constructive and most importantly, ten time more sensible than your usual propagandist tripe.

Now that I think of it, I am always amazed when reading the IGS how aggressive and imperialist the Caldari loyalists can be here compared to the much - too much ? - quieter Federation supporters.

While I find rather sad to see how lethargic our own ostrich supporters can be, are not the Caldari supposed to behave in the exact opposite way ?

Do you even bother to notice just how much you resemble the stereotypical mind pablum that you spew? Go to Jita, get some reality and a few clues, and get over the wonder of your own "wisdom".
Katrina Oniseki
Oniseki-Raata Internal Watch
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#96 - 2013-12-27 07:59:18 UTC
I do not think she would be interested in Jita, what with it being Caldari space.

Katrina Oniseki

Rinai Vero
Blades of Liberty
#97 - 2013-12-27 20:44:03 UTC
Marnian Veroe wrote:


Now that I think of it, I am always amazed when reading the IGS how aggressive and imperialist the Caldari loyalists can be here compared to the much - too much ? - quieter Federation supporters.

While I find rather sad to see how lethargic our own ostrich supporters can be, are not the Caldari supposed to behave in the exact opposite way ?


This part must have really hit a nerve. I'm rather sure we would disagree on a great many things, but as far as this subject goes you are right on target.
Anslo
Scope Works
#98 - 2013-12-27 22:28:23 UTC
First things first...Tuulinen your hair...

Now then, Marni-girl, I have no idea if you actually are agreeing with me or just being a sarcastic **** , but please know that I'm not here supporting the 'great Federation against the Imperialist Caldari.' Anyone with half a brain can see the hypocrisy in that. My comment is more of a jab to you U-Nats constantly bashing on the State instead of getting over yourselves.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]

Rinai Vero
Blades of Liberty
#99 - 2013-12-28 01:26:44 UTC
I took your comment more as a jab against the Ostrich types than the U-Nats. Portraying the Federation as the Last Free Beacon of Utopia doesn't really help drum up the kind of hate they thrive on. Dirty immigrants shooting all the jobs and the like is more their line. Gotta protect our Ladyfolk from those lusty Brutor savages, ect.
Anslo
Scope Works
#100 - 2013-12-28 01:56:18 UTC
Sarcasm don't work on the IGS...something I need to remember.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]