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[request] kronos blaster fit for 4s
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hmskrecik
TransMine Group
Gluten Free Cartel
#21 - 2013-12-21 08:37:29 UTC
The Djego wrote:
hmskrecik wrote:
The Djego wrote:
As for blaster fittings, it couldn't even compete against a proper rail fitting before the patch in applied dps over a bigger sample of missions,

My ticks tell different story.


That's funny because mine didn't. It is noticeable slower with rails(speed to reposition, sentry dps) and it lost tons applied dps at close and the anti frig option(snipe frigs at 18km with a overheated web, never wast time with light drones). Many npc hulls orbit at 37-50km, what the rail Kronos could deal with far better, most Cruisers and BCs die in 2 volleys, no matter if you use blasters or rails(rof is not that different after adding input lag) and even in Angel space I found the 90% web + 425mm more relay able compared Neutrons with Null for damage application across the board(because it is a a lot slower than my mach).

That leaves me following possibility's:

- I'm super bad flying a mobile hull watching range, ammo choice, transversal and optimizing my movement(what I doubt since I fly my navy Apoc and Mach in the same fashion with quite good times for L4)
- I'm super good with rail/sentry fittings while other people are bad it(unlikely, however whenever I see people suggesting blasters outside very very specific pve scenarios I could scream)
- People get better results by the massive range buff of blasters and the much higher tracking compared to rails, what is a lot less punishing for sub optimal positioning, ammo choices and piloting, while being not more effective overall if you get this right with rails(honestly I think it is this)

There are two other possibilities:
- I fly so bad that this rebalance superficially improved my performance.
- Due to gaining experience and having skills trained I fly better and better over time and this improvement has nothing to do with what ship I'm using.

The fact remains, right now from blaster Kronos I'm getting ticks at similar level I used to get from Mach and Vargur. And now I fly Kronos in super lazy mode thus I'm confident there is quite a lot of room for improvement.

Reading your post I got impression you compare railguns with blasters and Null. If you used this ammo in all engagement ranges there your problem might have been. For targets at 20km and closer I switch to Void, for tracking at ranges 10-35 (blapping frigs) I switch to antimatter and for 40km and beyond I consider changing position or switching to railguns (you took the Mobile Depot with you, did't you?). The numbers are crude but easy to remember.

Also when drone killing frigs aren't an issue, you get much more dps from full flight of mediums instead of sentries.
Gujolais
Universal Moose Federation
Moose Alliance
#22 - 2013-12-23 11:41:58 UTC
hmskrecik wrote:
... and for 40km and beyond I consider changing position or switching to railguns (you took the Mobile Depot with you, did't you?).

You mean you switch guns in the middle of shooting targets? I tried using the mobile depot to switch fits during a mission, but i couldn't make the whole 'load fitting' in the saved fittings window to work. And I didn't want to manually switch out all the modules in every room of the mission so i dropped the idea. Did any of you make 'load fitting' work?
chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#23 - 2013-12-23 14:08:30 UTC
The main reason I wanted blasters is because I want to be within the 48km tractor range when stuff dies. If I plan on being that close anyway, I might as well use blasters.
hmskrecik
TransMine Group
Gluten Free Cartel
#24 - 2013-12-23 16:51:01 UTC
Gujolais wrote:
hmskrecik wrote:
... and for 40km and beyond I consider changing position or switching to railguns (you took the Mobile Depot with you, did't you?).

You mean you switch guns in the middle of shooting targets? I tried using the mobile depot to switch fits during a mission, but i couldn't make the whole 'load fitting' in the saved fittings window to work. And I didn't want to manually switch out all the modules in every room of the mission so i dropped the idea. Did any of you make 'load fitting' work?

You do not have to switch off all modules, only guns, and as far as I could tell, load fitting doesn't work so yes, you have to switch them manually. It's a bit tedious but can be done. That said, I very rarely change them during the fight but still, sometimes I do.
hmskrecik
TransMine Group
Gluten Free Cartel
#25 - 2013-12-23 16:53:12 UTC
chaosgrimm wrote:
The main reason I wanted blasters is because I want to be within the 48km tractor range when stuff dies. If I plan on being that close anyway, I might as well use blasters.

There's wisdom in it and blasters won't disappoint you when used this way.

(though, funny fact, you can still kill stuff even at 80km distances)
Kenpo
The Guardians of the Beam
#26 - 2013-12-23 19:58:38 UTC
hmskrecik wrote:
chaosgrimm wrote:
The main reason I wanted blasters is because I want to be within the 48km tractor range when stuff dies. If I plan on being that close anyway, I might as well use blasters.

There's wisdom in it and blasters won't disappoint you when used this way.

(though, funny fact, you can still kill stuff even at 80km distances)


Nothing wrong with waiting until everything is within 48km for easy tractoring afterwords, and yes you can definetly reach out to 80km and smack someone Big smile

Caution, rubber gloves and faceshield required when handling this equipment.
The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
#27 - 2013-12-27 02:49:43 UTC  |  Edited by: The Djego
hmskrecik wrote:

Reading your post I got impression you compare railguns with blasters and Null. If you used this ammo in all engagement ranges there your problem might have been. For targets at 20km and closer I switch to Void, for tracking at ranges 10-35 (blapping frigs) I switch to antimatter and for 40km and beyond I consider changing position or switching to railguns (you took the Mobile Depot with you, did't you?). The numbers are crude but easy to remember.

Also when drone killing frigs aren't an issue, you get much more dps from full flight of mediums instead of sentries.


I might have used over 10k of void and antimatter on my test sessions on sissi(a couple of hours mind you). Summery, dps that doesn't effect volley count is pointless(if a cruiser/BC dies to 2 volleys of Null using Void/Antimatter in the same scenario with the same volley count is pointless). Keep in mind a 425mm rail Kronos will kill the target also in 2 volleys, at what point the use of blasters is questionable at best(in combination with the web bonus is was even at point blank). Even worse with the reduction of sentry dps the new blaster Kronos is plain bad capitalizing heavy hits or adjust for bad hits(targets in 10% structure after the 2. shoot), finishing targets off with sentry's(what the old Kronos could do ok, and what works like a charm on my mach) while moving on with the turret dps to the next target, avoiding wasting dps. As for the stunning dps at point blank, the old rail Kronos with a 90% did just the same, simply because the applied damage and optimal damage where a lot more similar, thx to a 400% better tracking within 18km(yes a ******* 400% tracking buff, the stuff what made blaster ships actually useful back in the days, as high skilled solo option, even during the nano age, because you actually had your eft dps on the target and the effect was quite devastating). This was actually one of the features that made it ok, even compared to my mach(and we are talking about a maxed out max gank armor mach). While the max dps of a rail Kronos was below, the applied dps was actually ok(from the pov of a person that flown all the hulls with all 5 in bling fits, set up for max gank), because it could be applied both at point blank as well as extreme long range giving you a very favourable window of engagement and efficiency.

As for drones, medium drones generate a lot of agro and got shot by a lot of stuff(what means you lose the theoretical damage advantage even before flight time, just by playing scoop and re-deployed games). This makes them tedious at best and just bad in practice(hilarious bad when multi boxing, where everything but sentry's is plain useless). It even flows bad with a gank setup, since you park the hull like 30km in front of the spawn, your guns are way more efficient vs frigs at this point and medium drones with the travel time are far less efficient to finish stuff off, while her dps gets tanked to 50-80% when you not put them on your gun target(what again means lots of travel time and lost dps).

As for the mobile depot, I think it was one of the biggest mistakes on CCP part ever, watering down the choices you make when you fit your ship and penalizing the player for bad moves.

Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
Inir Ishtori
Perkone
Caldari State
#28 - 2013-12-27 14:39:54 UTC
The Djego wrote:
I flown mine like this before the changes:

[Kronos, L4 Rails]
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
True Sansha Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
True Sansha Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Core C-Type Large Armor Repairer

Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed Script
Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed Script
Federation Navy Stasis Webifier
Gist A-Type 100MN Microwarpdrive

425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Drone Link Augmentor II
Centum A-Type Medium Remote Armor Repair System
Small Tractor Beam II

Large Hybrid Burst Aerator II
Large Anti-Explosive Pump I


Hobgoblin II x5
Salvage Drone I x5
Garde II x3

DPS at 40km was 1060, including 3 garde II. 1149 at 30km, both numbers with my SS-906(I haven't used the slot 10 for hybrid dps since 2010).

Imps:

NN-605(5% more base speed)
MR-705(5% more tracking)
Zor's Hyper Link(5% more mwd speed)
SS-906(6% more turret damage)
I currently use a FN mindlink for slot 10(the agility and armor bonus is however nice for dual boxing while moving BS around, while you don't need the extra armor while dualboxing it is nice to have vs suizide gankers)



Looking at your numbers i'm slightly puzzled why you would call the new bastion Kronos worse, as i can achieve somewhat better numbers at the same ranges and more up close with the following fitting(for cheaper, too):

[Kronos, FN mfs]
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Large Armor Repairer II

Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
100MN Microwarpdrive or MJD
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800

Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge L
Drone Link Augmentor II
Salvager II
Salvager II
Bastion Module I

Large Hybrid Burst Aerator II
Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I

Warden II x2

Implants: 5% ROF, 5% Hybrid damage, 5% Falloff

Other than Blaster Spec, all dps-relevant skills are at lvl 5.

DPS with Null L(/w drones): 1158(1248) EFT dps @ 0, 1135(1225) at 30km, 1024(1115) at 40km
DPS with FN AM L: 1453 at 0 with no drones, switch for Null at >23 km.

With Blaster Specialization 5, FN TC and one more FN MFS this fit would gain up to 40 dps at 30-50 km, though it might be a bit unreasonable for the amount of ISK and train time involved in that.
I run just a T2 fit currently and lack Trajectory Analysis 5 + 5% falloff implant, leaving me at about 90 dps less than the fitting above at 30/40/50km.

Your old 90% web was surely great, but so far i seem to manage killing frigs before they reach me or with some creative use of the MJD. On the other hand the sensor dampeners in some of the Serpentis oriented missions were the bane of my mission running at times and Bastion helps immensely with this, while your old fit would probably leave me waiting for a minute or two while i may finally lock on to something. Less reliance on drone damage is quite positive, too.

The only thing that annoys me so far is that i can't achieve those mythical 12 minutes completition times for the "big" missions. I manage to complete Angel Pirate invasion in less than 20 minutes etc, but some missions just won't finish under 20-25 minutes. I noticed that depending on mission there are certain spots to place your ship with MJD and certain tricks to shorten up mission times substantionally, but i don't run them often enough to always remember doing it right for every mission Ugh

So this might be the issue with your new Kronos: maybe you tried to run the missions your old way instead of developing - and, most important, finding - new strategies?
hmskrecik
TransMine Group
Gluten Free Cartel
#29 - 2013-12-28 09:44:40 UTC  |  Edited by: hmskrecik
The Djego wrote:
....

Interesting read.

The problem I have is that I cannot repeat your experience. To me blasters are consistently performing better than railguns. Just recently I've run Blood Raider Vengeance twice in short time so I did it with both types of guns with one minor difference that railguns were supported by 14km web. Still, when I used blasters I got 13 mil in the first tick, and I have feeling I can do better, while railguns netted me only 9, without much room for improvement since I've been already shooting exclusively in optimal range (CN Anti by default, Javelin when applicable).

Now a bit of theorycrafting. I admit I have no habit of counting volleys, except for occasional "oh look, I have instapopped this (b)cruiser", but looking in EFT/PYFA I can't help but to notice that blasters still have bigger alpha, which may or may be not reduced by falloff. The thing is, ships which you don't one-volley are battleships, which are where the money is. So slight difference in volley means blasters may need less of them to kill bastards. And even if not so, let's not forget that blasters have better ROF so even if they need the same amount of shots, they still do it in shorter time.

The matter with drones is as you say and all I can add is the usual "learn and adapt, HTFU, etc". Though here blasters again have this slight advantage that due to better tracking they CAN kill those frigs which aggressed drones. In more cases than railguns anyway. That said, I've found myself sometimes not releasing my drones at all which, when you think about it, is a sad thing.

With the depot it's where you've lost me. How does it penalize players?
Sid Crash
#30 - 2013-12-28 10:24:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Sid Crash
I don't fly one myself but having a look at it (hadn't given it a glance since the changes) I came up with this, it seems to be the most dps focussed while still having enough tank.

[Kronos, lvl 4]
Core C-Type Large Armor Repairer
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Tracking Enhancer II
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer

Core C-Type 100MN Microwarpdrive
Large Micro Jump Drive
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script

Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L
Corpus B-Type Heavy Nosferatu
Corpus B-Type Heavy Nosferatu
Small Tractor Beam II
Bastion Module I

Large Hybrid Burst Aerator II
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I

Hobgoblin II x5
Hammerhead II x5
Warden II x2
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