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[Rubicon 1.1] Sisters of EVE Battleship

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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1601 - 2013-12-21 20:13:40 UTC
Savira Terrant wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Savira Terrant wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Question on the issues with RR, is it just the range that makes it unattractive for that purpose or something else? BS mobility? Cap considerations?


If you mean for a pure RR-bs fleet, the fact that it is a Domi without a rangebonus on the drones makes it unattractive and uninspired. Doubling the RR range and effectively add a repper to this "Domi" is not a gamechanger.

If you mean as pure Logistic replacement, mobility and signature radius and scan resolution plays a big role for a BS hull being nonsensical for Logistics in the first place. Add to that much less range for the same rep amount than the cruiser and more mass in case of wormholes and you have your answear. And no, doing dps with sentries does not offset the drawbacks in my eyes. Making 3 meta reppers (same repamount as T2 repper 4/2 guardian) capstable requires 5 capreacharger and gimps drone dps severly anyway. Or gimps the the tank too much for PVP situations since it needs much more EHP than the Guardian because of the huge signature.

I was mainly looking at the implications of spider tanking a group of these, in which you do bring up a good point with the domi's bonuses, though, and not being sure here is why I ask, I would have thought there would be some novelty in the idea of the fact that with 4 reps this ship outreps a T2 logistics ship, granted at much lower range, leaving 3 highs open for other things. I'll grant it's not a "gamechanger" in itself, but fundamentally doesn't seem like a bad idea, offensive inferiority to the Domi aside.


That is not going to happen. If you want the same damage the Domi has, you need 4 energy transfers and 2 reps (same as domi, only you effectively have 3 reps). But without the bonus of the Domi, the application is so bad that I predict that no one is going to bother with it.

I don't say it should get the bonus. My idea for the Nestor is quite different anyway.

Question further as I'm confused. Why would you need 4 energy transfers? Especially when running only 2 reps (most RR domi fits I've seen run 2 of each)? And how does this affect damage? Also do you consider the domi the only useable drone BS?
Savira Terrant
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1602 - 2013-12-21 21:44:21 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Savira Terrant wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Savira Terrant wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Question on the issues with RR, is it just the range that makes it unattractive for that purpose or something else? BS mobility? Cap considerations?


If you mean for a pure RR-bs fleet, the fact that it is a Domi without a rangebonus on the drones makes it unattractive and uninspired. Doubling the RR range and effectively add a repper to this "Domi" is not a gamechanger.

If you mean as pure Logistic replacement, mobility and signature radius and scan resolution plays a big role for a BS hull being nonsensical for Logistics in the first place. Add to that much less range for the same rep amount than the cruiser and more mass in case of wormholes and you have your answear. And no, doing dps with sentries does not offset the drawbacks in my eyes. Making 3 meta reppers (same repamount as T2 repper 4/2 guardian) capstable requires 5 capreacharger and gimps drone dps severly anyway. Or gimps the the tank too much for PVP situations since it needs much more EHP than the Guardian because of the huge signature.

I was mainly looking at the implications of spider tanking a group of these, in which you do bring up a good point with the domi's bonuses, though, and not being sure here is why I ask, I would have thought there would be some novelty in the idea of the fact that with 4 reps this ship outreps a T2 logistics ship, granted at much lower range, leaving 3 highs open for other things. I'll grant it's not a "gamechanger" in itself, but fundamentally doesn't seem like a bad idea, offensive inferiority to the Domi aside.


That is not going to happen. If you want the same damage the Domi has, you need 4 energy transfers and 2 reps (same as domi, only you effectively have 3 reps). But without the bonus of the Domi, the application is so bad that I predict that no one is going to bother with it.

I don't say it should get the bonus. My idea for the Nestor is quite different anyway.

Question further as I'm confused. Why would you need 4 energy transfers? Especially when running only 2 reps (most RR domi fits I've seen run 2 of each)? And how does this affect damage? Also do you consider the domi the only useable drone BS?


Well, if you think you don't need to be stable or have implants you can get away with two.
For RR fleets, basicly yes. This particular argument was how this ship is like the Domi. Which has best bonuses for RR fleet use.

.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1603 - 2013-12-21 22:10:28 UTC
Savira Terrant wrote:
Well, if you think you don't need to be stable or have implants you can get away with two.
For RR fleets, basicly yes. This particular argument was how this ship is like the Domi. Which has best bonuses for RR fleet use.
I guess I'm still confused then as per what you are saying a 2 rep/2 cap xfer RR domi group doesn't work, also that doesn't really answer the question of damage and the need for cap xfers to get it. So long as we are simply looking at the RR abilities this ship are obviously superior and leave room unless you for some reason feel the need to double the cap xfers on the Nestor compared to a typical Domi fit unless I'm wrong and RR domi's always work under 60km due to never fitting DLA's.
Savira Terrant
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1604 - 2013-12-21 22:15:37 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Savira Terrant wrote:
Well, if you think you don't need to be stable or have implants you can get away with two.
For RR fleets, basicly yes. This particular argument was how this ship is like the Domi. Which has best bonuses for RR fleet use.
I guess I'm still confused then as per what you are saying a 2 rep/2 cap xfer RR domi group doesn't work, also that doesn't really answer the question of damage and the need for cap xfers to get it. So long as we are simply looking at the RR abilities this ship are obviously superior and leave room unless you for some reason feel the need to double the cap xfers on the Nestor compared to a typical Domi fit unless I'm wrong and RR domi's always work under 60km due to never fitting DLA's.


My argument here is that it already reps enough and has a good range. The Nestor reps more but does not have enough range.
There is also a "DLA-rig" so that it is enough control range. If it is not enough 1 DLA is. You'd have to manage your cap better in that case.

.
XAJIRBA Darth
All Your Wrecks Are Bolong To Sith
#1605 - 2013-12-21 22:56:53 UTC
Im sure that no one in this thread has seriously considered puting lasers on this boat.
On other hand no one has a working EFT for this blender. And one HUGE issue got overlooked.

Lets consider fitting lasers on it (just for a sec):
1. if we fit Beams - 5 Tachyons II = 5 * 3700 powergrid
2. if we fit Pulses - 5 Megas II = 5 * 2750 powergrid

The blender base powergrid is 11250 PWG. Even with skills applied you can hardly fit the 5 Pulses (Beams are impossible). And after fiting those stupid Pulses you get problems with fitting prop modules, 1600 plates or those uber buffed RRs.

CPP if you seriously consider this to be a laserboat give it a powergrid of a laserboat, othervise replace this laser range bonus with something else.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1606 - 2013-12-22 00:28:47 UTC
XAJIRBA Darth wrote:
Im sure that no one in this thread has seriously considered puting lasers on this boat.
On other hand no one has a working EFT for this blender. And one HUGE issue got overlooked.

Lets consider fitting lasers on it (just for a sec):
1. if we fit Beams - 5 Tachyons II = 5 * 3700 powergrid
2. if we fit Pulses - 5 Megas II = 5 * 2750 powergrid

The blender base powergrid is 11250 PWG. Even with skills applied you can hardly fit the 5 Pulses (Beams are impossible). And after fiting those stupid Pulses you get problems with fitting prop modules, 1600 plates or those uber buffed RRs.

CPP if you seriously consider this to be a laserboat give it a powergrid of a laserboat, othervise replace this laser range bonus with something else.


I agree but for a different reason. On the domi I fit medium rail guns because they have similar range to the gardes and hit more often than large guns. I'd be inclined to do the same here.

Same goes for the snipe fit on the stratios actually. You only lose about 10km range by fitting rail guns over beams, and they use a whole lot less cap.

Of course my gank straitos has light neutron blasters. The reasons why should be obvious.

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Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#1607 - 2013-12-22 06:14:36 UTC
XAJIRBA Darth wrote:
Im sure that no one in this thread has seriously considered puting lasers on this boat.
On other hand no one has a working EFT for this blender. And one HUGE issue got overlooked.

Lets consider fitting lasers on it (just for a sec):
1. if we fit Beams - 5 Tachyons II = 5 * 3700 powergrid
2. if we fit Pulses - 5 Megas II = 5 * 2750 powergrid

The blender base powergrid is 11250 PWG. Even with skills applied you can hardly fit the 5 Pulses (Beams are impossible). And after fiting those stupid Pulses you get problems with fitting prop modules, 1600 plates or those uber buffed RRs.

CPP if you seriously consider this to be a laserboat give it a powergrid of a laserboat, othervise replace this laser range bonus with something else.


Even if you get past the lack of grid and cap for the tachs ... you end up with a range bonused weapon on a ship with very ordinary target range meaning to take advantage of the bonus you need two sebos on a boat that needs all its mids for omnis just to even get close to an unfitted Domi in sentry range and tracking. So fitting beams to this ship is a fail fit.

I suspect a pulse fit will start to get tanking issues.

it's likely the only people fitting lasers to this boat will be the occasional obsessive Amarr laser fan that will fit lasers to anything and everything regardless of whether it is actually efficient or sensible.
MBizon Osis
Doomheim
#1608 - 2013-12-22 06:36:46 UTC
What is this spoused to be good at? 100% bonus to remote armor repairer range 8400mx2=16800m. This is less range than a navitas with a small remote armor repper! 16.8km is a sad joke. 84km would be more like a "logi BS" 1000% not 100%.

Please let this be the time I am completly wrong about the numbers here.
Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#1609 - 2013-12-22 07:42:55 UTC
MBizon Osis wrote:
What is this spoused to be good at? 100% bonus to remote armor repairer range 8400mx2=16800m. This is less range than a navitas with a small remote armor repper! 16.8km is a sad joke. 84km would be more like a "logi BS" 1000% not 100%.

Please let this be the time I am completly wrong about the numbers here.


You aren't wrong, and further improving the RR range of this thing is the opposite of what they need to do with it. They need to scrap the RR idea altogether and make the thing a proper exploration BS somehow. Otherwise it's an overpriced, underpowered Domi with weak RR bonuses and a bunch of other bonuses that are pretty much completely pointless.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#1610 - 2013-12-22 12:45:11 UTC
XAJIRBA Darth wrote:
Im sure that no one in this thread has seriously considered puting lasers on this boat.
On other hand no one has a working EFT for this blender. And one HUGE issue got overlooked.

Lets consider fitting lasers on it (just for a sec):
1. if we fit Beams - 5 Tachyons II = 5 * 3700 powergrid
2. if we fit Pulses - 5 Megas II = 5 * 2750 powergrid

The blender base powergrid is 11250 PWG. Even with skills applied you can hardly fit the 5 Pulses (Beams are impossible). And after fiting those stupid Pulses you get problems with fitting prop modules, 1600 plates or those uber buffed RRs.

CCP if you seriously consider this to be a laserboat give it a powergrid of a laserboat, othervise replace this laser range bonus with something else.


I agree,
the recent lasercide bugs me alot and I'd rather have three turret slots and a 150% laser damage and a 25% capacitor use bonus on the blender and we have a really nice Vexor-like laser+drone hybrid boat, that I also wanted to turn the Astero and Stratios out to be.

I hope that the Sansha line will get proper laser bonuses to scare all the shield fitted ships out there away or murders them Twisted

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This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#1611 - 2013-12-22 15:03:46 UTC
Well it looks like we already have a nickname for it! Cool

But to add to the above statements on lasers, yes: it needs more powergrid and possibly capacitor if it's supposed to be a viable laser ship. And without a damage bonus, it won't be unbalanced (although even if it did get one, it'd make sense with the price)!

Seriously, if it is designed to use lasers and drones, it should be able to use them both. This ship is like some sort of battleship-carrier hybrid- and it'll cost much more than a carrier, so it should really be worth it to use it.

I want a usable blender- a ship this cool deserves to be able to function better!

(and I'm still hoping for +15 virus strength and/or +2 warp core strength Cool)

"A City made of Dreams is built in heaven"
Savira Terrant
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1612 - 2013-12-22 18:47:22 UTC
You again with your virus strength. Roll

And it is not, by any means, anything like a carrier. Where do you get that from?

.
Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#1613 - 2013-12-22 22:15:11 UTC
Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci wrote:
Well it looks like we already have a nickname for it! Cool

But to add to the above statements on lasers, yes: it needs more powergrid and possibly capacitor if it's supposed to be a viable laser ship. And without a damage bonus, it won't be unbalanced (although even if it did get one, it'd make sense with the price)!

Seriously, if it is designed to use lasers and drones, it should be able to use them both. This ship is like some sort of battleship-carrier hybrid- and it'll cost much more than a carrier, so it should really be worth it to use it.

I want a usable blender- a ship this cool deserves to be able to function better!

(and I'm still hoping for +15 virus strength and/or +2 warp core strength Cool)


Why would a person want to hack with a 2 billion isk battleship? I'm puzzled...
Raeni Le'Sex
Doomheim
#1614 - 2013-12-23 02:37:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Raeni Le'Sex
Why not remove the bonuses to hacking and scanning and instead allow the fitting of a 3 warfare link modules. Then add a few different exploration themed warfare links and bonus them. One could increase the range of analyzer modules by t1/t2 10%/20%, one could increase virus strength by 5/10 and one could increase scan strength by 10%/20%. numbers are negotiable, Maybe there could be SOE mods aswell.

The Nestor could be more like an Exploration Command Ship. Give it a small Maintenance bay of about 200-250k m3. it could fit 2 Stratios and an Astero at 250k or one Stratios and several Astero at 200k.

lower the armor rep bonus to 40% and keep the 100% range bonus.

give it a role bonus that negates the speed and scan resolution drawbacks of an improved cloaking device.
Remove the bonus to lasers

Change the sensors to Radar

Add new Leadership skillbooks: Explorer & Expedition Management

Explorer: increases the scan speed of fleet members probes by x% per level
Expedition Management: Can equip Exploration warfare links. boosts effectiveness by xx% per level.

so the new stats look like:

Quote:
Amarr Battleship Bonuses:
4% Armor resistances per level

Gallente Battleship Bonuses:
10% drone damage and hitpoints per level

Role bonuses:
40% bonus to remote armor repairer amount
100% bonus to remote armor repairer range
Multiplies cloaked velocity by 500%
increases scan resolution by 40% when a cloaking device is equipped.
Can use 3 warfare link modules simultaneously
10% bonus to exploration links.
Joelleaveek
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1615 - 2013-12-23 02:53:06 UTC
I don't like anything about this ship. Wish it was more like a Black ops.
Savira Terrant
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1616 - 2013-12-23 03:43:55 UTC
Well, after thinking about this matter a bit more, there is absolutely no reason not to use the next best battleship with the highest dps you can use.
I think even if this ship were to get a covert jump drive (with lacking range I bet) and a ship bay for a cruiser, I would still use a carrier as transport for jumprange and versatility. Nothing beats the jumprange argument, because it means you can cover more systems, thus find more sites and make more money while racing through 2 or 3 regions in a frigate.

Or does anyone see a benefit over a Marauder for combat exploration sites?

.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1617 - 2013-12-23 09:05:02 UTC
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Basically this ship is a huge success. Made the vast majority agree on something.. that it is UGLY as hell


And that it has no business being used to explore anything ever.



In fact it looks like a tool made to explore holes.. in a painful way.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1618 - 2013-12-23 10:42:23 UTC
Nestor bonus: When a Nestor is destroyed, 100 fireworks shoot in all directions and the in-game music is temporarily replaced with "Ode To Joy", for everyone on grid.

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Roy Alleyne
Dark Knowledge.
#1619 - 2013-12-23 10:50:10 UTC
Raeni Le'Sex wrote:
Why not remove the bonuses to hacking and scanning and instead allow the fitting of a 3 warfare link modules. Then add a few different exploration themed warfare links and bonus them. One could increase the range of analyzer modules by t1/t2 10%/20%, one could increase virus strength by 5/10 and one could increase scan strength by 10%/20%. numbers are negotiable, Maybe there could be SOE mods aswell.

The Nestor could be more like an Exploration Command Ship. Give it a small Maintenance bay of about 200-250k m3. it could fit 2 Stratios and an Astero at 250k or one Stratios and several Astero at 200k.

lower the armor rep bonus to 40% and keep the 100% range bonus.

give it a role bonus that negates the speed and scan resolution drawbacks of an improved cloaking device.
Remove the bonus to lasers

Change the sensors to Radar

Add new Leadership skillbooks: Explorer & Expedition Management

Explorer: increases the scan speed of fleet members probes by x% per level
Expedition Management: Can equip Exploration warfare links. boosts effectiveness by xx% per level.

so the new stats look like:

Quote:
Amarr Battleship Bonuses:
4% Armor resistances per level

Gallente Battleship Bonuses:
10% drone damage and hitpoints per level

Role bonuses:
40% bonus to remote armor repairer amount
100% bonus to remote armor repairer range
Multiplies cloaked velocity by 500%
increases scan resolution by 40% when a cloaking device is equipped.
Can use 3 warfare link modules simultaneously
10% bonus to exploration links.


I like the premise and basic idea of an exploration command ship but I think this approach is taking things a little outside of the relm of a single ship's balancing abilities. The ability to equip warfare links is pretty good as it give the ship a lot more versatility as a long range fleet support ship. Unfortunately, I think that even if this idea was accepted and put into implementation it would still be awhile before we saw those modules, maybe not even until the next expansion. Also, idk how adding a BS hull that can support warfare links while they have been restricted to BC hulls and specialty ships will affect the game so I will reserve judgement on the idea until we have discussed it more.

The explorer skill is interesting and will gain the favor of exploration and wh fleets everywhere. How it will screw up balancing I don't know but I'm sure someone will make a case against it. The down side is I fear it will need to wait until next expansion at the earliest if implemented at all.

The maintenance bay is a good idea and has been suggested before for long distance fleet operations and your suggested sizes make sense as to allow it to support a SoE fleet without having to much space. I assume that this bay would be accompanied by a small fleet hanger and fitting service to supplement the long term deployment role of the ship. This will, in turn, allow the ship to be valuable enough for an exploration fleet of mainly frigates and cruisers to slow down enough for this ship to lumber through wormholes and past gates.

Cloaked velocity is, of course, almost necessary for an exploration ship of this caliber. The scan res bonus, on the other hand, is interesting because it allows the Nestor to both equip a cloak and target something smaller than a carrier in a reasonable amount of time. The problem with it is that not even a BlOps has this bonus (unless they plan to add it when they visit the class in tieracide) and, as far as I know, the bonus isn't already in the game.

Overall I like it, numbers are malleable but the concepts are sound.
Roy Alleyne
Dark Knowledge.
#1620 - 2013-12-23 11:01:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Roy Alleyne
Savira Terrant wrote:
Well, after thinking about this matter a bit more, there is absolutely no reason not to use the next best battleship with the highest dps you can use.
I think even if this ship were to get a covert jump drive (with lacking range I bet) and a ship bay for a cruiser, I would still use a carrier as transport for jumprange and versatility. Nothing beats the jumprange argument, because it means you can cover more systems, thus find more sites and make more money while racing through 2 or 3 regions in a frigate.

Or does anyone see a benefit over a Marauder for combat exploration sites?


I think you're right. A carrier would be superior to the Nestor in every capacity for which you would use it. Even if the Nestor were to become a great long range fleet support ship, a carrier will always be able to travel faster and more safely, have more DPS and Logi capabilities (both traditional and RR), and will even be cheeper. I see the Nestor being used more as a Wspace flag ship than anything else. This is where it's mass reduction and exploration heritage will shine brightest, away from the light pollution cast by the capitol fleets of New Eden.