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Replacing Caldari Kinetic Damage Bonuses

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Meyr
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
OnlyFleets.
#61 - 2013-12-20 14:09:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Meyr
The Cyclone has 6.875 (according to the post above) effective BONUSED launchers.

The Drake has 9 effective bonused launchers.

That means that the Cyclone does 76% of the damage of a bonused Drake. It also means that the Drake, UNBONUSED, still does 87% of the damage of a BONUSED Cyclone.

Seems pretty fair to me.

In addition, for those of you attempting to compare turrets and missiles, food for thought:

When was the last time you MISSED with missiles? Target in range, and not moving fast enough to outrun your missiles.

After the last patch, when they got rid of the "X amount of hull damage = destroyed target" coding, missile-boat pilots were complaining that it altered their shot count, that some targets took an extra salvo to kill.

Think about that for a moment; missile damage is so consistent that pilots are able to determine precisely how many shots it takes to kill a target, and develop a shot pattern/pace for optimal ammo usage.

Drone pilots can't do that. Turret pilots can't do that. Pilots with bonuses to both can't do that. Turret and drone damage are nowhere near as consistent as missile damage.

PLUS, you get to select optimal damage type, although, having flown a Drake in Level 3 missions, you don't need to. It's damage bonus is so big, it simply clobbers every rat it comes across. PVP is a different story, I understand, but this is a way to make a consistent comparison.

So, trying to complain about turrets being buffed (which, in all honesty, they desperately needed) in a thread about (some) Caldari hulls being bonused for a single damage type is, at best, completely misunderstanding turret, and, to a lesser extent, drone, dynamics.
Dav Varan
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#62 - 2013-12-20 14:15:04 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Dav Varan wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Dav Varan wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
What buff will amarr and gallente gunboats, and T2 projectile ammo, receive to go along with this? They're all limited in damage types too...


Amaar and gallente have had there buffs , massive range and damage boosts for amarr a couple of years back , massive damage boosts and tracking for gallente not long ago.

Compared to those boosts this request is modest.
and also needed.

Kin only bonuses are amongst the weekest given out to ship hulls.
If you do the maths a 5% kin bonus works out to roughly the same as a 1.6%Damage boost.

This is calculated from max damage to all target types at lvl 5 as against lvl 0

For spending time training hulls cal pilots get very little back in terms of increased dps.


A maxed trained cal pilot in a hull getting a 5% per level kin bonus does 6.5% more dps when using optimal ammo ( ammo switching to most damaging type in each case ) than a level 1 pilot

This compared to 25% for straight damage bonuses , 37.5% for rof and 50% for most drones

Lasers and blasters get muchg greater raw dps to compensate for lack of damage type switching.




Ok... then you wil expende the same level of damage bonuses for the minmatra missile ships? Because they susually have far inferior bonuses to keep the all damage types available.


Just comapre missile damage between drake and cyclone...


The clone is not a pure missile boat so here is the full damage comparison
cyclone
6.875 effective launchers
2 effective turrets
2 effective drones

for a total 10.875 effective damage dealers

drake has
7.5 effective launchers
1 effective drones

for a total of 8.5 effective damage dealers.

clone is faster and has a better solo tank bonus
drake has better slot layout and better group tank.

looks like the drake could do with a proper missile bonus
lets go with 10 damage to all

that would then be

9 effective launcher + 1 effective drone for a total of 10 total effective damage dealers
Still behind the clone but close enough.





You are mixing guns and drones. That completely negates your argument about beign able to deliver pure damage type. Not to forget range and the fact aht the turrets and droens will not bennefit from the damage mods that will be for missiles.

Again. MISSILE DAMAGE. Compare both.

*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal



You choose the ships.
I'm sorry if the results were not what you were expecting.

Clone has more base damage potential than a drake even if the drake had 10% bonues to all missile types.

Thats fairly damning evidence in favour of the post imo.


I'd really love cal ship to get decent bonuses I might start flying them again
until then I'll stick with the insane amounts of applied damage I seem to get from Gal/Mini
Dav Varan
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#63 - 2013-12-20 14:23:58 UTC
Meyr wrote:
The Cyclone has 6.875 (according to the post above) effective BONUSED launchers.

The Drake has 9 effective bonused launchers.

That means that the Cyclone does 76% of the damage of a bonused Drake. It also means that the Drake, UNBONUSED, still does 87% of the damage of a BONUSED Cyclone.

Seems pretty fair to me.


Drake does not have 9 effective launchers.
That was a hypertheitcial what if number base on a 10% damage bonus.

ALso what happened to drone and gun damage in that analysis ?

Are you really that desperate to make a point you have to pretend something does not exist ?
Niena Nuamzzar
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#64 - 2013-12-20 14:27:30 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:

You need to bring up the broken stupid RLML that get ultra bennefit form the base damage bonus on the scythe being large. THat is an anomaly due to the broken weapon system that should NEVEr be taken seriously in a balance discussion. The fault of this is a bad designed mechanic on the launcher.

Rapid light missile launchers were perfectly fine before the nerf and now they are broken. Heavy missiles, also broken, leaving Caldari pilots with only one weapon system and even that one is barely working. You can't simply compare what you want, exclude things you don't want and pretend to discuss about balance seriously.
Meyr
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
OnlyFleets.
#65 - 2013-12-20 14:29:38 UTC
Dav - some basic math...

Using kinetic missiles...

6 x 1.5 = 9

10% bonus per level to kinetic missile damage = 50% damage bonus, or 150% of unbonused damage. 150% = 1 x 1.5

Have I explained the basics of math to you clearly enough?
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#66 - 2013-12-20 14:34:39 UTC
It's funny… the players that are protesting the most are the ones enjoying current dominance with their preferred weapon system (lasers, hybrids, projectiles, drones, etc.) over missiles - and heaven forbid someone should actually bring the various hulls and missiles on par. Whatever would they do…
Roll

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Dav Varan
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#67 - 2013-12-20 14:34:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Dav Varan
Meyr wrote:
Dav - some basic math...

Using kinetic missiles...

6 x 1.5 = 9

10% bonus per level to kinetic missile damage = 50% damage bonus, or 150% of unbonused damage. 150% = 1 x 1.5

Have I explained the basics of math to you clearly enough?




so if the bonus of the drake was 10% per level to missile damage the maths would be

6 x 1.5 = 9

so 9 effective launchers if the bonus was on all damage types.

Absolutelly no change in damage output based on your argument.
Therefore you have no arguments against it !.


But something is wrong with your maths

You said 1.5 x 6 apples = 9 oranges.

You worked out how many effective kinetic launchers the drake has not how many effective launchers these are not the same thing.


Meyr - some correct maths...

If you want to do the maths correctly here it is.

To get effective launchers you need the mean average of effective em / them / kin and exp launchers

( 1 x 6 + 1 x 6 + 1.5 * 6 + 1 * 6 ) / 4 = 6.75



Thats 6.75 effective launchers not 9.


If you are going to do maths lessons please do it right to avoid looking stupid.

Consider yourself schooled.
Dav Varan
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#68 - 2013-12-20 15:10:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Dav Varan
Meyr wrote:
The Cyclone has 6.875 (according to the post above) effective BONUSED launchers.

The Drake has 9 effective bonused launchers.That means that the Cyclone does 76% of the damage of a bonused Drake. It also means that the Drake, UNBONUSED, still does 87% of the damage of a BONUSED Cyclone.

Seems pretty fair to me.

In addition, for those of you attempting to compare turrets and missiles, food for thought:

When was the last time you MISSED with missiles? Target in range, and not moving fast enough to outrun your missiles.

After the last patch, when they got rid of the "X amount of hull damage = destroyed target" coding, missile-boat pilots were complaining that it altered their shot count, that some targets took an extra salvo to kill.



Think about that for a moment; missile damage is so consistent that pilots are able to determine precisely how many shots it takes to kill a target, and develop a shot pattern/pace for optimal ammo usage.

Drone pilots can't do that. Turret pilots can't do that. Pilots with bonuses to both can't do that. Turret and drone damage are nowhere near as consistent as missile damage.

PLUS, you get to select optimal damage type, although, having flown a Drake in Level 3 missions, you don't need to. It's damage bonus is so big, it simply clobbers every rat it comes across. PVP is a different story, I understand, but this is a way to make a consistent comparison.

So, trying to complain about turrets being buffed (which, in all honesty, they desperately needed) in a thread about (some) Caldari hulls being bonused for a single damage type is, at best, completely misunderstanding turret, and, to a lesser extent, drone, dynamics.


No one tried to do a full comparision of guns v missiles
We just added up effective damage dealers on the high slots.

The reason to quote effective damage dealers is because a full analysis of target profiles / attack postures / cap / speed / resists / trasnversal of all possible targets at all possible ranges is a task thats immposible and is what would be required to get to a applied dps comparison.

Consider this when thinking of the gun/missile situation

What does a Gun pilot do to max damage on target ?

Reduce transversal and optimize range against target.
however difficult you consider this to be , hull bonues on gun ships are 100% compatible with these tactics by supplying 25-66% more raw dps.


What does a missile pilot do to max damage on target ?

Slow the opponent and anticipate the weekest resist.
however difficult you consider this to be , hull bonuses on Cal missile ships are not compatible with these tactics as you lose the bonus in 2/3rd of engagements giving a increase in deeps from beginner to fully trained of about 8%.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#69 - 2013-12-20 15:12:49 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
caldari get more dps focussed into a single damage type - other races get less dps, but more versatility.

I thought that was the point. I wanted caldari RoF bonuses too, but cant really complain when u get 10% damage bonuses.

as for dav's math where u divide the bonus by 4 because its only one damage type, i have never seen that before. u must be arthurs alt, because he is the only other person ive seen do math that bad.

should all laser and hybrid ships have their bonuses to effective turrets halved because they can only do two damage types? and theres only really 3 faction ammos u want to use with projectiles, so do they need their effective turrets reduced to 3/4?

*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Dav Varan
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#70 - 2013-12-20 15:52:50 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Daichi Yamato wrote:
caldari get more dps focussed into a single damage type - other races get less dps, but more versatility.

I thought that was the point. I wanted caldari RoF bonuses too, but cant really complain when u get 10% damage bonuses.

as for dav's math where u divide the bonus by 4 because its only one damage type, i have never seen that before. u must be arthurs alt, because he is the only other person ive seen do math that bad.

should all laser and hybrid ships have their bonuses to effective turrets halved because they can only do two damage types? and theres only really 3 faction ammos u want to use with projectiles, so do they need their effective turrets reduced to 3/4?

*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal



All ammo's you can fire from lasers/hybrids/proj and drones are bonused.

People who take a simplistic approach to the maths often miss the point that missile users switch ammo.
How do you campare bonuses that boost eveything in all situatiosn to bonuses that only boost in certain situations ?

The simple approach is to take an average.
A more accurate approch means considering all target types and working out.

best damage after bonus / best damage before bonus

Example.

working out the increase in damage that a 10% kin bonus grants.

Shooting a fitted ship with

40% em
50% therm
55% kin
60% exp

at lvl 0
firing em is preferable you get 60% of base damage of launchers.

at lvl 5
firing kin is preferable you get 67.5% of base damage of launchers.

Thats a 12.5% increase in damage done for 5 levels of training.

In this example the 10%kin bonus yielded equivelnt increase in damage as a 2.5% damage bonus.


This is not hard to understand.

Here is the proof.

Imagine a missile ship with a 2.5% damage bonus to all missiles.

Shooting the same fitted ship with

40% em
50% therm
55% kin
60% exp

at lvl 0
firing em is preferable you get 60% of base damage of launchers.

at lvl 5
firing em is preferable you get 67.5% of base damage of launchers.

Exactly the same increase.


So now go do it for all typical resist profiles
T1 shield
T1 armor racials
T2 Racials


I save you the trouble 5% kin comes out equal to 1.6% per level damage
i.e. ****.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#71 - 2013-12-20 16:09:27 UTC
and if we swap ur example around to an armour tanking ship, ur 50% boost to kinetic damage is looking pretty good. Such is the nature of focussing into one damage type. good thing it does the extra dps over comparable ships to compensate.

so missiles are better because they have the options lasers and hybrids don't? in fact missiles have more options than projectiles as using anything than the high damage 50% optimal ammo will do u more harm than good. therefore all turret ships should have their effective turrets discounted?

because the turrets never have option to swap damage type in the first place, does not mean we should ignore that they do limited damage types. otherwise ur just being disingenuous, thus why it is so hard to take u seriously.

between arthurs incessent whining over ALL THINGS MISSILE, and complete ignorance over the fact that some missiles do work well (perhaps because he uses nothing but heavies), and this ridiculous way of figuring how many effective weapons a ship is supposed to have, u discredit any arguments for buffing any missiles and any genuine gripes over how some missiles work.

take into ur consideration of how many 'effective drones' a cyclone has over a drake, have u completely forgotten that a medium drone only has 50% more dps than a small drone? and applies this dps with less tracking?

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#72 - 2013-12-20 16:30:39 UTC
Kinetic bonuses should certainly go away.



Also this...
Arthur Aihaken wrote:

• Phoenix receives 5% bonus to Missile Damage

What's a phoenix ? I don't know any useful ship that uses this name. I didn't check in the shuttle category though.

Signature Tanking Best Tanking

[Ex-F] CEO - Eve-guides.fr

Ultimate Citadel Guide - 2016 EVE Career Chart
Dav Varan
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#73 - 2013-12-20 17:00:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Dav Varan
Daichi Yamato wrote:
and if we swap ur example around to an armour tanking ship, ur 50% boost to kinetic damage is looking pretty good. Such is the nature of focussing into one damage type. good thing it does the extra dps over comparable ships to compensate.

so missiles are better because they have the options lasers and hybrids don't? in fact missiles have more options than projectiles as using anything than the high damage 50% optimal ammo will do u more harm than good. therefore all turret ships should have their effective turrets discounted?

because the turrets never have option to swap damage type in the first place, does not mean we should ignore that they do limited damage types. otherwise ur just being disingenuous, thus why it is so hard to take u seriously.

between arthurs incessent whining over ALL THINGS MISSILE, and complete ignorance over the fact that some missiles do work well (perhaps because he uses nothing but heavies), and this ridiculous way of figuring how many effective weapons a ship is supposed to have, u discredit any arguments for buffing any missiles and any genuine gripes over how some missiles work.

take into ur consideration of how many 'effective drones' a cyclone has over a drake, have u completely forgotten that a medium drone only has 50% more dps than a small drone? and applies this dps with less tracking?



Sometimes its good somwtime its bad.
Work out the average , if you want to understand the effectiveness in overall terms.
Thats what the numebrs are for.

Lasers and hybrids are boosted in raw dps and application compared to Projectiles to compensate for there lack of damage switching.
That the disingenuous argument here pretending there somehow at a disadvantage in base design.
All system have there pro's and con's


A con of a system should never be it can't be trained up effectivelly - eve is an RPG.

What value should be put on the training of each race compared to each other ?

I always start from the point that all races training should be of equal value to the player.

If Amarr are getting 25-37% bonuses to damage output for hull training then the same should be true for Gal/Mini/Cal

Kin bonuses don't deliver value.
The overall effectiveness increase is too small compared to other races.
Niena Nuamzzar
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#74 - 2013-12-20 17:02:11 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:

take into ur consideration of how many 'effective drones' a cyclone has over a drake, have u completely forgotten that a medium drone only has 50% more dps than a small drone? and applies this dps with less tracking?

So your medium drones are having difficulties with tracking a slow and fat battlecruiser?
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#75 - 2013-12-20 17:34:34 UTC
Altrue wrote:
What's a phoenix ? I don't know any useful ship that uses this name. I didn't check in the shuttle category though.

Dreadnought. Google "Eve worst dreadnought" for an eye opener...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Clansworth
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#76 - 2013-12-20 17:44:20 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Altrue wrote:
What's a phoenix ? I don't know any useful ship that uses this name. I didn't check in the shuttle category though.

Dreadnought. Google "Eve worst dreadnought" for an eye opener...

^^^ This guy totally missed it...
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#77 - 2013-12-20 17:51:03 UTC
Clansworth wrote:
^^^ This guy totally missed it...

I blame the cold and flu medication… Lol

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#78 - 2013-12-20 18:24:34 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
It's funny… the players that are protesting the most are the ones enjoying current dominance with their preferred weapon system (lasers, hybrids, projectiles, drones, etc.) over missiles - and heaven forbid someone should actually bring the various hulls and missiles on par. Whatever would they do…
Roll



Hint: A lot of us trained caldari and missile skills back when HML drakes/tengus were top dog, so...yeah. I really wouldn't have to do anything except buy another tea tray.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#79 - 2013-12-20 19:10:48 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
Moving up the T1 line:
Kestrel - Omni-damage missile bonus
Condor - Kinetic bonus
Corax - Kinetic bonus (7 light missile omni alpha damage is way OP)
Caracal - Omni-damage (rate of fire)
Drake - Kinetic bonus
Raven - Omni damage bonus (rate of fire)

So, 3/7 T1 line has an omni-damage bonus to missiles.

Hookbill - Kinetic Bonus, half others
Osprey Navy Issue - Kinetic Bonus, half others
Caracal Navy Issue - Omni damage bonus
Drake Navy Issue - Omni damage bonus
Raven Navy Issue - Omni damage application bonus

Three omni, two with kinetic preferred

Hawk - Mostly kinetic + ROF bonus(omni) (Hawk is OP anyways, should never get full omni-damage bonus)
Cerberus - Same as Hawk

OK, too tired to continue looking them up... Bottom line: Caldari already have omni damage bonus on half their missile boat lineup. Working as intended.
Turk MacRumien
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#80 - 2013-12-20 19:14:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Turk MacRumien
I'd agree that the kin only bonus is a little less useful (in general of course, with the right resist hole it can be great) than the flat damage bonuses that the other races get.

A change like this however should not be a straight conversion, CCP would have to decrease the bonus a little to compensate for the increased usability i.e. 7.5% bonus -> 5% bonus