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Replacing Caldari Kinetic Damage Bonuses

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Dav Varan
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#41 - 2013-12-20 10:09:03 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
What buff will amarr and gallente gunboats, and T2 projectile ammo, receive to go along with this? They're all limited in damage types too...


Amaar and gallente have had there buffs , massive range and damage boosts for amarr a couple of years back , massive damage boosts and tracking for gallente not long ago.

Compared to those boosts this request is modest.
and also needed.

Kin only bonuses are amongst the weekest given out to ship hulls.
If you do the maths a 5% kin bonus works out to roughly the same as a 1.6%Damage boost.

This is calculated from max damage to all target types at lvl 5 as against lvl 0

For spending time training hulls cal pilots get very little back in terms of increased dps.


A maxed trained cal pilot in a hull getting a 5% per level kin bonus does 6.5% more dps when using optimal ammo ( ammo switching to most damaging type in each case ) than a level 1 pilot

This compared to 25% for straight damage bonuses , 37.5% for rof and 50% for most drones

Lasers and blasters get muchg greater raw dps to compensate for lack of damage type switching.
HiddenPorpoise
Jarlhettur's Drop
United Federation of Conifers
#42 - 2013-12-20 10:18:49 UTC
Dav Varan wrote:
If you do the maths a 5% kin bonus works out to roughly the same as a 1.6%Damage boost.

What?
The kin bonused ships have more launchers than their omni equivalents. They do nearly as much damage as the kin do off type.
Luscius Uta
#43 - 2013-12-20 10:50:46 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:


Excludign the typhoon, what minamtar missile boat is superior (as a damage source since we are talkign about weapons) to the caldari equivalent?


NONE!




What's so bad about the Cyclone?

Workarounds are not bugfixes.
Gypsio III
State War Academy
Caldari State
#44 - 2013-12-20 10:52:13 UTC
Blanket changes like this are almost always bad ideas. They typically result in unjustified boosts to ships that are already good enough while not fixing the ships that actually need help. The classic example was the 2009 projectile ammo changes; here, the change would do nothing to make the Phoenix useful while making many of the frigates rather too good.

More intelligent ideas, please.
Dav Varan
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#45 - 2013-12-20 10:54:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Dav Varan
...
removed post cause cara has rof bonuses thesee days lol
maybe all that belly aching back in the days actually got through to someone :P
seth Hendar
I love you miners
#46 - 2013-12-20 10:54:32 UTC
Dorian Wylde wrote:
Actually, only the minmatar get a bonus to all types of damage.

Amarr only get em/thermal bonuses, gallente only get kin/therm. Yes, they both get drones, but you're either using thermal for nearly everything pve, or getting laughed at for using a drone carrier in pvp.

mmmm, i fly often drone boats in pvp, and provided you know what to do, they are damn effective, vexor / navy vexor(Attention) / myrm / ishtar are very very good in small gang, and for larger fleets, ishtar / domis perform very well

right after CCP decided to remove sentry aggro on drone, i reverted to fly my vexor / myrm and yes, anyone laughed at me.

2 days later, and a green KB, they asked me for my fittings and half of them now fly those hulls, and that is damn effective!
Deryn Angrard
Lightning Squad
Snuffed Out
#47 - 2013-12-20 10:57:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Deryn Angrard
Luscius Uta wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:


Excludign the typhoon, what minamtar missile boat is superior (as a damage source since we are talkign about weapons) to the caldari equivalent?


NONE!




What's so bad about the Cyclone?


HAM drake can push out the same DPS from launchers only as cyclone is able to with launchers + 5 hammerhead IIs. Drake also has lot more EHP than any cyclone can get. Cyclone has advantage when active tanked.

Cyclone is in no way a bad ship, it is in fact my favorite BC at the moment. but drake doesnt need the buff OP wants.

edit. Think about the ships that already get used, what would you change on them to keep them becoming overpowered?
Dav Varan
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#48 - 2013-12-20 11:24:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Dav Varan
HiddenPorpoise wrote:
Dav Varan wrote:
If you do the maths a 5% kin bonus works out to roughly the same as a 1.6%Damage boost.

What?
The kin bonused ships have more launchers than their omni equivalents. They do nearly as much damage as the kin do off type.



Effectiveness of a kin bonus at 5% per level is 1.6% raw damage no matter how good or bad the hull is.

If you do the raw math assuming all missile types are equally important then
pilot at lvl 5 has the folowing boosts over an untrained pilot.

25% kin
0% em
0% therm
0% exp

add them up and divide to get the average

( 25 + 0 + 0 + 0 ) / 4

= 6.25% boost at level 5 or 1.25% per level.

Thats a bit pesermistic though , often kinetic is the second best ammo and better to shoot once bonused than the best ammo.
Taking that into account and the prevelance of holes in each resist type the number comes out at 1.6% per level not 1.25%


If you still don't understand consider this example.

unbonused pilot shooting at an ishtar.

lets assume the ishtar has the following resist profile
50% em 60% therm 85% kin 50% exp

unbonused pilot in a hull not bonused for firing missiles does depending on missile choice.

50% em damage
40% thermal damage
15% kin damage
50% exp damage

best choice is em/exp and unbonused pilot does 50% of there raw dps in damage.

Cerb Pilot does

50% em damage
40% thermal damage
18.75% kin damage ( 1.25 x 15% )
50% exp damage

best choice is em/exp and Cerb pilot does 50% of there raw dps in damage.


Both example have same attenuation due to target speed and sig.

In this case the cerb 5% kin bonus results in 0.00% more dps i.e. completely worthless.

This is a worst case scenario and sometime kin bonus will be fine and sometime it will be only partially effective.
Averaged out over targets the effectivness of a max trained 5% kin bonus is 8% more dps.

So looking at the boosts for training done.

kin bonus pilots get 8% more dps
damage bonus pilots get 25% more dps
rof bonus pilots get 37.5% more dps
10% damage bonus pilots get 50% more dps


10% kin per level bonuses are of course much better and are probably about as effective as 5% per level damage.
I have not run through typical resist profiles at 10% though so that is a bit of a guess.
Iudicium Vastus
Doomheim
#49 - 2013-12-20 11:40:28 UTC
Might I also add that those who fly the missile majority Caldari are also immune to TD's.

[u]Nerf stabs/cloaks in FW?[/u] No, just.. -Fit more points -Fit faction points -Bring a friend or two with points (an alt is fine too)
Cassius Invictus
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#50 - 2013-12-20 11:50:58 UTC
Clansworth wrote:
Saying that Caldari can use any damage type because they can switch to un-bonused missiles is nearly the same as saying that Amarr can use any damage type by switching to projectile or hybrid turrets. If you throw out the bonuses, than every race can use every damage type. The advantage to caldari here is the ability to do it without refitting.


Yep do you even play EVE or some other game? You can switch missile ammo ON FLIGHT. Changing turret types is only possible on station. Your comparison is just, welll, not very smart....
Dav Varan
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#51 - 2013-12-20 11:56:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Dav Varan
Iudicium Vastus wrote:
Might I also add that those who fly the missile majority Caldari are also immune to TD's.

You may
But you would look foolish.
Matari and Khanid missile boats are no more affected by td's than Cal are.

A td has 0 percent effectiveness againt a rof bonused missile boat
A td has 0 percent effectiveness againt a kin bonused missile boat

TD are just not a variable in this post which is discussing effectiveness of hull bonuses.

Just like Tracking computers and remote tracking links and tracking enhancers are not variables either.

Smartbombs are not variable either.
Nor how many hookers you have in your cargo.
Niena Nuamzzar
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#52 - 2013-12-20 12:05:53 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:

Excludign the typhoon, what minamtar missile boat is superior (as a damage source since we are talkign about weapons) to the caldari equivalent?

As a damage dealer RLML Scythe Fleet Issue is superior to RLML Osprey Navy Issue.

Quote:

NONE!
Iudicium Vastus
Doomheim
#53 - 2013-12-20 12:06:51 UTC
Dav Varan wrote:
Iudicium Vastus wrote:
Might I also add that those who fly the missile majority Caldari are also immune to TD's.

You may
But you would look foolish.
Matari and Khanid missile boats are no more affected by td's than Cal are.

A td has 0 percent effectiveness againt a rof bonused missile boat
A td has 0 percent effectiveness againt a kin bonused missile boat

TD are just not a variable in this post which is discussing effectiveness of hull bonuses.

Just like Tracking computers and remote tracking links and tracking enhancers are not variables either.

Smartbombs are not variable either.
Nor how many hookers you have in your cargo.


Khanid ships are a specialized brand requiring intensive skill training, not a T1 hull available to all on the quick and cheap.
And TC/TE's may not bonus missiles on the fitted ship, but they do still have their own equivalent for damage application. TPs.

If the kinetic damage bonuses on Caldari ships were ever replaced with an across-the-board bonuses to their numerous missile hulls, then I would hope as a drawback they'd become susceptible to TDs. By explanation that the signal transferred to the missile computer at launch is interrupted causing fuel use inefficiency in flight, or premature detonation of missiles.

[u]Nerf stabs/cloaks in FW?[/u] No, just.. -Fit more points -Fit faction points -Bring a friend or two with points (an alt is fine too)
Dav Varan
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#54 - 2013-12-20 13:20:19 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
I'm not coming up with a rpoposal though, that's not what this thread is about. It's about the discussion of YOUR proposal, so coming back with 'Well you say somethign better then' is kind of worthless.

Caldari hulls have drones, and they have gunboats too. And drones, outside of sentries, kind of suck in PVP anyway.

T2 ammo has it's niche, and if rage missiles were available in all flavours on all caldari hulls, guess what kind of ammo would get used in them in PVP?

Hell, you can already use any damage type in a caldari missile hull, you just don't get the bonus. Gallente and Amarr are locked on EM/Therm, they cannot do another damage type with thier guns.



If you want the damage type restriction removed, either propose buffs to the other guys to make up for it, or propose a different drawback.



How about amarr and minin get full bonuses to all missile types and gal get full bonuese to all drone damage types.

Oh wait !
They all ready do.

Cal are already restricted on therm/kin on hybrids they dont need restriction on missiles too.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#55 - 2013-12-20 13:22:58 UTC
Dav Varan wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
What buff will amarr and gallente gunboats, and T2 projectile ammo, receive to go along with this? They're all limited in damage types too...


Amaar and gallente have had there buffs , massive range and damage boosts for amarr a couple of years back , massive damage boosts and tracking for gallente not long ago.

Compared to those boosts this request is modest.
and also needed.

Kin only bonuses are amongst the weekest given out to ship hulls.
If you do the maths a 5% kin bonus works out to roughly the same as a 1.6%Damage boost.

This is calculated from max damage to all target types at lvl 5 as against lvl 0

For spending time training hulls cal pilots get very little back in terms of increased dps.


A maxed trained cal pilot in a hull getting a 5% per level kin bonus does 6.5% more dps when using optimal ammo ( ammo switching to most damaging type in each case ) than a level 1 pilot

This compared to 25% for straight damage bonuses , 37.5% for rof and 50% for most drones

Lasers and blasters get muchg greater raw dps to compensate for lack of damage type switching.




Ok... then you wil expende the same level of damage bonuses for the minmatra missile ships? Because they susually have far inferior bonuses to keep the all damage types available.


Just comapre missile damage between drake and cyclone...

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#56 - 2013-12-20 13:24:37 UTC
Dav Varan wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
I'm not coming up with a rpoposal though, that's not what this thread is about. It's about the discussion of YOUR proposal, so coming back with 'Well you say somethign better then' is kind of worthless.

Caldari hulls have drones, and they have gunboats too. And drones, outside of sentries, kind of suck in PVP anyway.

T2 ammo has it's niche, and if rage missiles were available in all flavours on all caldari hulls, guess what kind of ammo would get used in them in PVP?

Hell, you can already use any damage type in a caldari missile hull, you just don't get the bonus. Gallente and Amarr are locked on EM/Therm, they cannot do another damage type with thier guns.



If you want the damage type restriction removed, either propose buffs to the other guys to make up for it, or propose a different drawback.



How about amarr and minin get full bonuses to all missile types and gal get full bonuese to all drone damage types.

Oh wait !
They all ready do.

Cal are already restricted on therm/kin on hybrids they dont need restriction on missiles too.





They get SMALLER damage bonuses.

Compare the missile dps of drake and cyclone! Compare missile damage of caracal and bellicose.



They keep all damage profile while havign a muhc LOWER max dps. The only exception is the typhoon.. but wait.. the raven also does not have locked damage type... so its almost like CCP had already tought about that..... incredble huh?

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#57 - 2013-12-20 13:26:43 UTC
Niena Nuamzzar wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:

Excludign the typhoon, what minamtar missile boat is superior (as a damage source since we are talkign about weapons) to the caldari equivalent?

As a damage dealer RLML Scythe Fleet Issue is superior to RLML Osprey Navy Issue.

Quote:

NONE!



You need to bring up the broken stupid RLML that get ultra bennefit form the base damage bonus on the scythe being large. THat is an anomaly due to the broken weapon system that should NEVEr be taken seriously in a balance discussion. The fault of this is a bad designed mechanic on the launcher.

Use real missile laucnhers, useful for PVP, like HAMS when you compare things.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Dav Varan
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#58 - 2013-12-20 13:30:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Dav Varan
Iudicium Vastus wrote:
Dav Varan wrote:
Iudicium Vastus wrote:
Might I also add that those who fly the missile majority Caldari are also immune to TD's.

You may
But you would look foolish.
Matari and Khanid missile boats are no more affected by td's than Cal are.

A td has 0 percent effectiveness againt a rof bonused missile boat
A td has 0 percent effectiveness againt a kin bonused missile boat

TD are just not a variable in this post which is discussing effectiveness of hull bonuses.

Just like Tracking computers and remote tracking links and tracking enhancers are not variables either.

Smartbombs are not variable either.
Nor how many hookers you have in your cargo.


Khanid ships are a specialized brand requiring intensive skill training, not a T1 hull available to all on the quick and cheap.
And TC/TE's may not bonus missiles on the fitted ship, but they do still have their own equivalent for damage application. TPs.

If the kinetic damage bonuses on Caldari ships were ever replaced with an across-the-board bonuses to their numerous missile hulls, then I would hope as a drawback they'd become susceptible to TDs. By explanation that the signal transferred to the missile computer at launch is interrupted causing fuel use inefficiency in flight, or premature detonation of missiles.


Khanid ttraining os no moer intensive than training on any other t2 hulls including cal t2 with the bad bonuses.

TP's bonuses all missiles the same amount irrespective of any hull bonus.
TP's are not a variable either.

Given Cal only get one bonused ammo lets give Gal one bonused ammo.
Hmmm
Gal only get tracking bonuses when using iron ammo .

??? thing that is a good enough bonus ???

Thats equivelent.
And more of an equivalancy argument than the one your trying and failing to make.


If missile get affected by TD's then Gal only get tracking on Iron ammo.
Dav Varan
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#59 - 2013-12-20 13:52:39 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Dav Varan wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
What buff will amarr and gallente gunboats, and T2 projectile ammo, receive to go along with this? They're all limited in damage types too...


Amaar and gallente have had there buffs , massive range and damage boosts for amarr a couple of years back , massive damage boosts and tracking for gallente not long ago.

Compared to those boosts this request is modest.
and also needed.

Kin only bonuses are amongst the weekest given out to ship hulls.
If you do the maths a 5% kin bonus works out to roughly the same as a 1.6%Damage boost.

This is calculated from max damage to all target types at lvl 5 as against lvl 0

For spending time training hulls cal pilots get very little back in terms of increased dps.


A maxed trained cal pilot in a hull getting a 5% per level kin bonus does 6.5% more dps when using optimal ammo ( ammo switching to most damaging type in each case ) than a level 1 pilot

This compared to 25% for straight damage bonuses , 37.5% for rof and 50% for most drones

Lasers and blasters get muchg greater raw dps to compensate for lack of damage type switching.




Ok... then you wil expende the same level of damage bonuses for the minmatra missile ships? Because they susually have far inferior bonuses to keep the all damage types available.


Just comapre missile damage between drake and cyclone...


The clone is not a pure missile boat so here is the full damage comparison
cyclone
6.875 effective launchers
2 effective turrets
2 effective drones

for a total 10.875 effective damage dealers

drake has
7.5 effective launchers
1 effective drones

for a total of 8.5 effective damage dealers.

clone is faster and has a better solo tank bonus
drake has better slot layout and better group tank.

looks like the drake could do with a proper missile bonus
lets go with 10 damage to all

that would then be

9 effective launcher + 1 effective drone for a total of 10 total effective damage dealers
Still behind the clone but close enough.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#60 - 2013-12-20 14:01:02 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Dav Varan wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Dav Varan wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
What buff will amarr and gallente gunboats, and T2 projectile ammo, receive to go along with this? They're all limited in damage types too...


Amaar and gallente have had there buffs , massive range and damage boosts for amarr a couple of years back , massive damage boosts and tracking for gallente not long ago.

Compared to those boosts this request is modest.
and also needed.

Kin only bonuses are amongst the weekest given out to ship hulls.
If you do the maths a 5% kin bonus works out to roughly the same as a 1.6%Damage boost.

This is calculated from max damage to all target types at lvl 5 as against lvl 0

For spending time training hulls cal pilots get very little back in terms of increased dps.


A maxed trained cal pilot in a hull getting a 5% per level kin bonus does 6.5% more dps when using optimal ammo ( ammo switching to most damaging type in each case ) than a level 1 pilot

This compared to 25% for straight damage bonuses , 37.5% for rof and 50% for most drones

Lasers and blasters get muchg greater raw dps to compensate for lack of damage type switching.




Ok... then you wil expende the same level of damage bonuses for the minmatra missile ships? Because they susually have far inferior bonuses to keep the all damage types available.


Just comapre missile damage between drake and cyclone...


The clone is not a pure missile boat so here is the full damage comparison
cyclone
6.875 effective launchers
2 effective turrets
2 effective drones

for a total 10.875 effective damage dealers

drake has
7.5 effective launchers
1 effective drones

for a total of 8.5 effective damage dealers.

clone is faster and has a better solo tank bonus
drake has better slot layout and better group tank.

looks like the drake could do with a proper missile bonus
lets go with 10 damage to all

that would then be

9 effective launcher + 1 effective drone for a total of 10 total effective damage dealers
Still behind the clone but close enough.







You are mixing guns and drones. That completely negates your argument about beign able to deliver pure damage type. Not to forget range and the fact aht the turrets and droens will not bennefit from the damage mods that will be for missiles.

Again. MISSILE DAMAGE. Compare both.

*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"