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[Rubicon 1.1] Sisters of EVE Battleship

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Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1561 - 2013-12-20 10:11:22 UTC
Savira Terrant wrote:


That being said, I say make the Nestor perfect for the third application and save the mass bonus for a later added true wormhole bs.


Why do people think that mass is a relevant factor for using a battleship in a wormhole? You're not seriously thinking that you'll double the fleet size just because the ship's mass is half that of a normal battleship?

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Roy Alleyne
Dark Knowledge.
#1562 - 2013-12-20 10:23:22 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Savira Terrant wrote:


That being said, I say make the Nestor perfect for the third application and save the mass bonus for a later added true wormhole bs.


Why do people think that mass is a relevant factor for using a battleship in a wormhole? You're not seriously thinking that you'll double the fleet size just because the ship's mass is half that of a normal battleship?



No, but being able to bring two of these instead of a BS for dps and reps would be.
Roy Alleyne
Dark Knowledge.
#1563 - 2013-12-20 10:33:38 UTC
Savira Terrant wrote:


Quote:
scan stuff and
1. hack and chase spew loot (perfect for Astero)
2. hack and tank high alpha/GTFO (perfect for Statios)

3. blitz something that is basicly a level 4 mission
(needs a bs that can be there fast and undetected in the first place - not talking cov ops cloak here - and no, I will not be scanning in a BS)

4. dps for wormhole sites
(needs a cheap bs with non-cap dependent omni-resist-armor-tank (preferably gallente profile since it won't get jove profile),
non-cap dependent gank other than drones
make repdrones the thing for wormholes for sites that don't require guardians for a bs fleet
absolutely no need for a any sneaky stuff for this ship)


That being said, I say make the Nestor perfect for the third application and save the mass bonus for a later added true wormhole bs.


Regulating the Nestor to the role of L4 blitzing just seems like a waste of its potential. Still rooting for anything that makes someone want this in their long deployment exploration fleet.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1564 - 2013-12-20 10:34:53 UTC
Roy Alleyne wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Savira Terrant wrote:


That being said, I say make the Nestor perfect for the third application and save the mass bonus for a later added true wormhole bs.


Why do people think that mass is a relevant factor for using a battleship in a wormhole? You're not seriously thinking that you'll double the fleet size just because the ship's mass is half that of a normal battleship?



No, but being able to bring two of these instead of a BS for dps and reps would be.


Why is that specifically relevant to wormholes? Mass is not a limiting factor for 2 battleships in anything other than a C1, in which the nestor cannot fit in any case.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Savira Terrant
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1565 - 2013-12-20 10:38:27 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Savira Terrant wrote:


That being said, I say make the Nestor perfect for the third application and save the mass bonus for a later added true wormhole bs.


Why do people think that mass is a relevant factor for using a battleship in a wormhole? You're not seriously thinking that you'll double the fleet size just because the ship's mass is half that of a normal battleship?



Actually that is quite possible, since everyone and their moms have alts. And in wormholes 2 or 3. So if everyone can bring their alt along in an additional battleship, yeah that makes quite the difference for completion times and thus fleet safety.

The thing is even for juicy wormhole PVP fleets I cannot think of a way to use the Nestor effectively enough to warrant using it vs bringing a few cruiser sized logistics instead. Especially since wormhole PVP is mostly based on T3 ships (with bhaalgorn support against capitals).

.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1566 - 2013-12-20 10:46:43 UTC
Savira Terrant wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Savira Terrant wrote:


That being said, I say make the Nestor perfect for the third application and save the mass bonus for a later added true wormhole bs.


Why do people think that mass is a relevant factor for using a battleship in a wormhole? You're not seriously thinking that you'll double the fleet size just because the ship's mass is half that of a normal battleship?



Actually that is quite possible, since everyone and their moms have alts. And in wormholes 2 or 3. So if everyone can bring their alt along in an additional battleship, yeah that makes quite the difference for completion times and thus fleet safety.

The thing is even for juicy wormhole PVP fleets I cannot think of a way to use the Nestor effectively enough to warrant using it vs bringing a few cruiser sized logistics instead. Especially since wormhole PVP is mostly based on T3 ships (with bhaalgorn support against capitals).


Corrected text below:

So if everyone can bring their alt along in an additional battleship instead of scouting wormholes like they should be, yeah that makes almost no difference for completion times because the limiting factor is the spawn pattern, not dps application and thus negative fleet safety.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Savira Terrant
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1567 - 2013-12-20 12:17:40 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Savira Terrant wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Savira Terrant wrote:


That being said, I say make the Nestor perfect for the third application and save the mass bonus for a later added true wormhole bs.


Why do people think that mass is a relevant factor for using a battleship in a wormhole? You're not seriously thinking that you'll double the fleet size just because the ship's mass is half that of a normal battleship?



Actually that is quite possible, since everyone and their moms have alts. And in wormholes 2 or 3. So if everyone can bring their alt along in an additional battleship, yeah that makes quite the difference for completion times and thus fleet safety.

The thing is even for juicy wormhole PVP fleets I cannot think of a way to use the Nestor effectively enough to warrant using it vs bringing a few cruiser sized logistics instead. Especially since wormhole PVP is mostly based on T3 ships (with bhaalgorn support against capitals).


Corrected text below:

So if everyone can bring their alt along in an additional battleship instead of scouting wormholes like they should be, yeah that makes almost no difference for completion times because the limiting factor is the spawn pattern, not dps application and thus negative fleet safety.


Your peeps seem less hardcore, playing with less monitors, I guess. That does not invalidate my argument.

.
erg cz
Federal Jegerouns
#1568 - 2013-12-20 12:22:14 UTC
Here is my suggestion to make this ship worth the money it will cost. Key pointa are
1. ability to fit and utilize bastion module
2. 7/7/7 layout to keep Gnosis and Stratios line (6/6/6 and 5/5/5 layouts)
3. bigger cargo hold: Gnosis has biggest cargo among battlecruisers, Stratios - among cruisers, why should Nestor has it smaller, than Gnosis has?
4. Bigger PWG, though this is not that crucial.

NESTOR

Amarr Battleship Bonuses:
4% Armor resistances per level

Gallente Battleship Bonuses:
10% drone damage and hitpoints per level

Role bonuses:
70% reduction in Micro Jump Drive reactivation delay
Able to switch to deployed mode (Bastion mode)
50% bonus to large energy turret optimal range
37% increased strength for scan probes


Slot layout: 7H, 7M, 7L; 5 turrets, 0 launchers
Fittings: 12250 PWG, 680 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull): 8900 / 9950 / 9900
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap/s) : 6200 / 1044 / 5.9
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 92 / .18 / 56000000 / 13.97
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 500
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 75km / 85 / 7
Sensor strength: 24 Magnetometric
Signature radius: 465
Cargo Capacity:900

Absolutely free head start for newcomers!. Just click the link and get extra 250 000 SP!
XvXTeacherVxV
Be Nice Inc.
Prismatic Legion
#1569 - 2013-12-20 14:51:56 UTC
erg cz wrote:
Here is my suggestion to make this ship worth the money it will cost. Key pointa are
1. ability to fit and utilize bastion module
2. 7/7/7 layout to keep Gnosis and Stratios line (6/6/6 and 5/5/5 layouts)
3. bigger cargo hold: Gnosis has biggest cargo among battlecruisers, Stratios - among cruisers, why should Nestor has it smaller, than Gnosis has?
4. Bigger PWG, though this is not that crucial.

NESTOR

Amarr Battleship Bonuses:
4% Armor resistances per level

Gallente Battleship Bonuses:
10% drone damage and hitpoints per level

Role bonuses:
70% reduction in Micro Jump Drive reactivation delay
Able to switch to deployed mode (Bastion mode)
50% bonus to large energy turret optimal range
37% increased strength for scan probes


Slot layout: 7H, 7M, 7L; 5 turrets, 0 launchers
Fittings: 12250 PWG, 680 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull): 8900 / 9950 / 9900
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap/s) : 6200 / 1044 / 5.9
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 92 / .18 / 56000000 / 13.97
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 500
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 75km / 85 / 7
Sensor strength: 24 Magnetometric
Signature radius: 465
Cargo Capacity:900



Sounds like some kind of t2 battleship instead of a faction battleship. Something that rhymes with "defrauder". 
Can you see the rapier?: http://imgur.com/aFelCpv,GH6lqDE
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1570 - 2013-12-20 15:43:09 UTC
Savira Terrant wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:


Corrected text below:

So if everyone can bring their alt along in an additional battleship instead of scouting wormholes like they should be, yeah that makes almost no difference for completion times because the limiting factor is the spawn pattern, not dps application and thus negative fleet safety.


Your peeps seem less hardcore, playing with less monitors, I guess. That does not invalidate my argument.


We look forward to meeting your 'more hardcore' players in wormhole space soon Mr Terrant.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Mag's
Azn Empire
#1571 - 2013-12-20 16:20:49 UTC
I think the name Messter is more appropriate tbh.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#1572 - 2013-12-20 17:09:45 UTC
erg cz wrote:
1. ability to fit and utilize bastion module

That is about as likely as a Covert Ops cloak...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#1573 - 2013-12-20 17:16:12 UTC
I think the big problem with the Nestor is that while it's exploration oriented, exploration as an activity tends to be done alone, and this ship is too expensive enough and has too many roles such that it would be wasted on solo exploration.

Unless there are specific situations that will require teamwork and the support of this ship, it's going to be overkill, and expensive overkill and KB fodder too.

This is not to criticize it and say it's going to suck. I can think of great use for this ship, but it seems disoriented in it's role bonuses and the implied use of exploration and wormhole travel.

I'm also worried about something that is deemed an exploit. I recall a thread once where dropping sentries and then running reps on them will get you in trouble, that this is bot-like behavior. This ship is absolutely PERFECT to do just that. But that can get you in trouble. It's like having a sports car in a country where you can't go fast anywhere, a vehicle designed to break "the law" but using it at it's best ability will be just that.


There's also the issue of being a drone boat and an armor tanking drone boat as well, showing that SoE didn't learn this fallacy already, having to balance drone DPS with armor resists and repair. Yet people will scream OP if someone shield tanks this thing and rigs and racks it for drone DPS.

But again, there are already a lot of ships that can do that. Without a solid destiny for this design and role bonuses this is going to be an LP sink.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#1574 - 2013-12-20 17:28:52 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
I'm also worried about something that is deemed an exploit. I recall a thread once where dropping sentries and then running reps on them will get you in trouble, that this is bot-like behavior. This ship is absolutely PERFECT to do just that. But that can get you in trouble. It's like having a sports car in a country where you can't go fast anywhere, a vehicle designed to break "the law" but using it at it's best ability will be just that.

Imagine two of these in tandem...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
XvXTeacherVxV
Be Nice Inc.
Prismatic Legion
#1575 - 2013-12-20 17:53:41 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:

I'm also worried about something that is deemed an exploit. I recall a thread once where dropping sentries and then running reps on them will get you in trouble, that this is bot-like behavior. This ship is absolutely PERFECT to do just that. But that can get you in trouble. It's like having a sports car in a country where you can't go fast anywhere, a vehicle designed to break "the law" but using it at it's best ability will be just that.


I believe this is the thread you're referring to: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=84360

The situation was unique because they went AFK in a place that constantly spawns rats, but it was still a dumb call from the GM. Using RR on sentries is not a ban-able offense in and of itself.
Can you see the rapier?: http://imgur.com/aFelCpv,GH6lqDE
Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#1576 - 2013-12-20 19:27:17 UTC
erg cz wrote:
Here is my suggestion to make this ship worth the money it will cost. Key pointa are
1. ability to fit and utilize bastion module
2. 7/7/7 layout to keep Gnosis and Stratios line (6/6/6 and 5/5/5 layouts)
3. bigger cargo hold: Gnosis has biggest cargo among battlecruisers, Stratios - among cruisers, why should Nestor has it smaller, than Gnosis has?
4. Bigger PWG, though this is not that crucial.

NESTOR

Amarr Battleship Bonuses:
4% Armor resistances per level

Gallente Battleship Bonuses:
10% drone damage and hitpoints per level

Role bonuses:
70% reduction in Micro Jump Drive reactivation delay
Able to switch to deployed mode (Bastion mode)
50% bonus to large energy turret optimal range
37% increased strength for scan probes


Slot layout: 7H, 7M, 7L; 5 turrets, 0 launchers
Fittings: 12250 PWG, 680 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull): 8900 / 9950 / 9900
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap/s) : 6200 / 1044 / 5.9
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 92 / .18 / 56000000 / 13.97
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 500
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 75km / 85 / 7
Sensor strength: 24 Magnetometric
Signature radius: 465
Cargo Capacity:900



Making it a Marauder addresses the exploration theme how? What?
Jowen Datloran
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1577 - 2013-12-20 19:36:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Jowen Datloran
I just did some Excel magic looking at exclusive SoE LP store items and using current Jita Price as found on Eve Market Data to make a rough estimate on the sale price of a Nestor. (Screw the formatting of data!)

LP Cost ISK Cost Jita Price ISK/LP
Low-grade Virtue Omega 321,300 214,200,000 985,000,000 2,399
Stratios 120,000 30,000,000 415,000,000 3,208
Low-grade Virtue Delta 94,500 63,000,000 483,000,000 4,444
Low-grade Virtue Gamma 56,700 37,800,000 197,000,000 2,808
Low-grade Virtue Beta 37,800 25,200,000 127,000,000 2,693
Astero 30,000 15,000,000 101,000,000 2,867
Low-grade Virtue Alpha 28,350 18,900,000 100,000,000 2,861
SE Probe Launcher 14,400 9,600,000 52,000,000 2,944
SC Probe Launcher 14,400 9,600,000 51,000,000 2,875
10 x S Core Probe 1,800 1,200,000 6,400,000 2,889
10 x S Combat Probe 1,800 1,200,000 7,000,000 3,222

Average ISK/LP 3,019 which results in...

Nestor Cost: 600,000 LP and 150,000,000 ISK
Giving an estimated price of 1,811,484,877 ISK

Formula is: ISK/LP = (Jita Price - ISK Cost)/LP Cost

Cosidering that the Stratios and Astero are not adding much to the average value, the Nestor is going to be one pricey faction ship indeed.

Mr. Science & Trade Institute, EVE Online Lorebook 

Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1578 - 2013-12-20 19:56:46 UTC
Jowen Datloran wrote:
I just did some Excel magic looking at exclusive SoE LP store items and using current Jita Price as found on Eve Market Data to make a rough estimate on the sale price of a Nestor. (Screw the formatting of data!)

LP Cost ISK Cost Jita Price ISK/LP
Low-grade Virtue Omega 321,300 214,200,000 985,000,000 2,399
Stratios 120,000 30,000,000 415,000,000 3,208
Low-grade Virtue Delta 94,500 63,000,000 483,000,000 4,444
Low-grade Virtue Gamma 56,700 37,800,000 197,000,000 2,808
Low-grade Virtue Beta 37,800 25,200,000 127,000,000 2,693
Astero 30,000 15,000,000 101,000,000 2,867
Low-grade Virtue Alpha 28,350 18,900,000 100,000,000 2,861
SE Probe Launcher 14,400 9,600,000 52,000,000 2,944
SC Probe Launcher 14,400 9,600,000 51,000,000 2,875
10 x S Core Probe 1,800 1,200,000 6,400,000 2,889
10 x S Combat Probe 1,800 1,200,000 7,000,000 3,222

Average ISK/LP 3,019 which results in...

Nestor Cost: 600,000 LP and 150,000,000 ISK
Giving an estimated price of 1,811,484,877 ISK

Formula is: ISK/LP = (Jita Price - ISK Cost)/LP Cost

Cosidering that the Stratios and Astero are not adding much to the average value, the Nestor is going to be one pricey faction ship indeed.


Thank you. I'll be saving for delta implants from now on!

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
supernova ranger
The End of Eternity
#1579 - 2013-12-20 20:29:20 UTC
Wheres the shuttle bay?

The diagram shows it but I don't see a maintenance bay in the specs...

Can this ship warp while cloaked and use black ops bridges/ jump itself?
Roy Alleyne
Dark Knowledge.
#1580 - 2013-12-20 21:14:14 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Roy Alleyne wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:


Why do people think that mass is a relevant factor for using a battleship in a wormhole? You're not seriously thinking that you'll double the fleet size just because the ship's mass is half that of a normal battleship?



No, but being able to bring two of these instead of a BS for dps and reps would be.


Why is that specifically relevant to wormholes? Mass is not a limiting factor for 2 battleships in anything other than a C1, in which the nestor cannot fit in any case.


I was referring to fights large enough to stress wh mass limits no matter what the size, C1s are obviously ignored due to the Nestor not making their threshhold.

Savira Terrant wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:


Why do people think that mass is a relevant factor for using a battleship in a wormhole? You're not seriously thinking that you'll double the fleet size just because the ship's mass is half that of a normal battleship?



Actually that is quite possible, since everyone and their moms have alts. And in wormholes 2 or 3. So if everyone can bring their alt along in an additional battleship, yeah that makes quite the difference for completion times and thus fleet safety.

The thing is even for juicy wormhole PVP fleets I cannot think of a way to use the Nestor effectively enough to warrant using it vs bringing a few cruiser sized logistics instead. Especially since wormhole PVP is mostly based on T3 ships (with bhaalgorn support against capitals).


I agree, there is no reason I can think of in which the Nestor would be preferable to a logistics cruiser other than as bait.