These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Intergalactic Summit

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[NEWS] Further Highlander Leaks Implicate Federation In Illegal Border Breaches

Author
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#41 - 2013-12-19 15:19:30 UTC
Valerie Valate wrote:
Judging by this statement, I seem to have become a State citizen. Good heavens. How awkward.

I hope one of my Caldari friends can help clear this confusion up.


No can do, sorry. You're officially Caldari now. Please report to your nearest Citizen Orientation Bureau to receive your standard-issue cheekbones and jaw.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Kyllsa Siikanen
Tuonelan Virta
#42 - 2013-12-19 16:54:03 UTC
The intelligence and special service agencies of the various empires are not known for operating within the confines of international law.

The Gallente just got caught.

It doesn't make anyone else any less guilty of the crime.

“Crying is all right in its own way while it lasts. But you have to stop sooner or later, and then you still have to decide what to do.” 

― C.S. Lewis 

Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#43 - 2013-12-19 17:10:09 UTC
Really, the only thing the Gallente are guilty of here is being incompetent enough to get caught.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Roland Cassidy
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#44 - 2013-12-19 18:48:36 UTC
I play devils advocate here.

I would like to pose the thought that while many of our own IGS members concur in the summation that such means of modern intelligence gathering activities frequently could be described as both unlawful and ultimately 'common'; the activity in question nonetheless, was 'discovered'.

Are we to dismiss all observed crime simply because other identical crimes go unaddressed due to the fact that those others are not 'caught'? Surely this precedent would never be upheld, the chance of being prosecuted for an unlawful action is abysmal as is. To deny the express consequence for being discovered engaging in such activities is a blow to any attempt at justice.

I agree that there are no clean hands in this particular topic, but I would engage each of us to consider how poor a choice it would be for the discovery of a crime to go completely unaddressed. I am neither pristine in my criminal record nor would I expect to 'get away' with the crimes I may or may not have committed. I do however expect that if I'm witnessed in a crime that the punishment for such would be swift and without question.

Such is the koan of Justice. I feel profoundly sorry for the individuals who must ultimately mete out some sort of consequence without turning the fiasco into a mudslinging match on an Empire wide level.

"Watashi no Tao wa magarikunetta michidesu. Watashi wa toraedokoro no nai, heiwa o motome, samayoimasu."

(Trans) "My Tao is a winding path. I wander, seeking an elusive peace. "

浪人

Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#45 - 2013-12-19 18:50:05 UTC
Rinai Vero wrote:
I'm curious, what offer of "meaningful dialogue" is it that you perceive Roden to have stonewalled?


The most meaningful dialogue of all which should be of the utmost concern between the State and Federation is that of peace, limitation of conflict, respect for mutual borders, and an effective detente irrespective if it is to be cordial or armed under the auspices of a cold war. Whilst the present resolution surrounding the territorial issues regarding Caldari Prime have gone some way to alleviating political tensions it was a deal brokered by Ishukone and approved by the Federal Senate, not on the Executive Authority of President Roden alone. Given the overwhelming support for the Caldari Prime resolution, it follows that it would have been a poor political move to veto the move.

Now, whatever else might be said about Jacus Roden I would say he's an astute political operator in addition to being motivated by pragmatic self-interest. The same man that forced the resignation of Foiritain by refusing the nationalization of the Federal military-industrial complex is a man certainly more than capable of riding the crest of popularity for achieving his campaign promise of lifting the occupation of Luminaire straight to the next election; all the while capitalizing upon the Caldari Prime agreement as his own idea (and portray himself as a peacemaker no doubt). The real political genius here is that these Highlander, "Leaks", if we might call it that will also allow Roden to shift all the blame for continuing the war as being the fault of the CEP -- knowing all the while, that even if it's an open secret that the Federation does in fact conduct cross-border espionage and surveillance the fact that there is now actual evidence of that fact in the public domain would make pursuit of peaceful accommodation with the Federation career suicide for a Megacorp. CEO at the next AGM of the shareholders.

It's quite a brilliant set of political coincidence, I think, for dear Mr. President Roden being able to pursue both his political and business agendas while keeping his hands so clean. Now if you think my comments were intended to portray the Federation in a negative light, it really wasn't. My concern for the domestic politics in the Federation end at the point of their affecting foreign and economic policy with the State, not their effect on the common Federal citizen.

Although I do admit it can be enjoyable watching the little marionette show Roden and Blaque are putting on. It really is quite marvellous.

Kurilaivonen|Concern

Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#46 - 2013-12-19 20:06:59 UTC
Well hopefully if it's a case of "Everyone's doing it, only the Federation managed to get caught." Then this should be encouragement on the DED to review their enforcement protocols regarding the Yulai convention, there's been too many public border incursions in the past 12 months, having unknown numbers of secret ones come to light with the possibility of more means there's a need to increase border control.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.

X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#47 - 2013-12-19 20:51:05 UTC
Valerie Valate wrote:
So the Federation have just lost all of Placid to the State. Including Intaki.

Since the Caldari hold all that space right now, yes ?

No.

Couple things:
1. Vlillirier, Eugales are still free and have been for ages. (Recently Frarie, Aubenall, and Moclinimaud have been liberated as well).
2. Intaki is just one of 30+ systems in the FW areas of Placid.
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#48 - 2013-12-19 21:31:48 UTC
Roland Cassidy wrote:
I play devils advocate here.

I would like to pose the thought that while many of our own IGS members concur in the summation that such means of modern intelligence gathering activities frequently could be described as both unlawful and ultimately 'common'; the activity in question nonetheless, was 'discovered'.

Are we to dismiss all observed crime simply because other identical crimes go unaddressed due to the fact that those others are not 'caught'? Surely this precedent would never be upheld, the chance of being prosecuted for an unlawful action is abysmal as is. To deny the express consequence for being discovered engaging in such activities is a blow to any attempt at justice.

I agree that there are no clean hands in this particular topic, but I would engage each of us to consider how poor a choice it would be for the discovery of a crime to go completely unaddressed. I am neither pristine in my criminal record nor would I expect to 'get away' with the crimes I may or may not have committed. I do however expect that if I'm witnessed in a crime that the punishment for such would be swift and without question.

Such is the koan of Justice. I feel profoundly sorry for the individuals who must ultimately mete out some sort of consequence without turning the fiasco into a mudslinging match on an Empire wide level.


What I take away from this topic is that many capsuleers - I among them - take a dim view of international law against espionage and spying.

I mean, such laws are unenforceable. The nature of espionage is that it is by definition covert. If your agents and informants are being found out, then their discovery by the party being spied upon is sufficiently damaging that the censure of an international peacekeeper is inconsequential by comparison.

Which means that espionage being done correctly will never be uncovered, while espionage uncovered and duly punished didn't succeed anyway. If the "crime" cannot be detected when successful, and when the consequences of its failure are worse than the legal penalties involved, then there's no role for interstellar law. Even attempting to police it is an exercise in wasted money, not to mention introducing a new player into the game that both sides could exploit to their advantage. If you have, say, Caldari and Gallente espionage cells working against each other, then for one to expose the existence of the other to CONCORD could be useful, for at least long enough to secure some transient objective and withdraw.

The whole thing is a typical gung-ho CONCORD omnishambles. If the empires want to spy on one another, let them. Unless they're stupid enough to resort to assassination, the background level of espionage that almost certainly is ongoing and undetected is unlikely to destabilize New Eden. After all, it has already failed to do so for years.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#49 - 2013-12-19 21:32:15 UTC
The front remains highly fluid, as it has done for the last year at least.

Literally any attempt to enumerate systems held and lost is out of date within 24 hours of writing. I don't know why anyone bothers.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#50 - 2013-12-19 21:52:27 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
The front remains highly fluid, as it has done for the last year at least.

Literally any attempt to enumerate systems held and lost is out of date within 24 hours of writing. I don't know why anyone bothers.

Some things are relatively fixed. Nennamaila, Vlillirier, Nisuwa have been in Federation hands for as long as anybody can remember. Eha has been in Federation hands for almost a year.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#51 - 2013-12-19 22:45:08 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
The front remains highly fluid, as it has done for the last year at least.

Literally any attempt to enumerate systems held and lost is out of date within 24 hours of writing. I don't know why anyone bothers.

Some things are relatively fixed. Nennamaila, Vlillirier, Nisuwa have been in Federation hands for as long as anybody can remember. Eha has been in Federation hands for almost a year.


And they are the exceptions, rather than the rule.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Rinai Vero
Blades of Liberty
#52 - 2013-12-20 02:55:13 UTC
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:


[Interesting conjecture based on recent events]

Although I do admit it can be enjoyable watching the little marionette show Roden and Blaque are putting on. It really is quite marvellous.


Blaque has always been a master of the puppet theater, on that much I agree with you fully.

As for the rest of the content of your answer to my question, it behooves me to point out that much of it is purely speculative. Certainly it is possible that the course of events will prove the veracity of your accusations. At this point, however, the narrative you present must be understood as entirely self serving. Based on your interpretation of the motivation for these leaks the CEP are essentially freed from their responsibility to move towards the peace you claim to support. Rather than the captains of their own destiny, we are to take the Corporate leadership of the State to be hopelessly ensnared in yet another foul Gallente plot.

And why? Shouldn't the hierarchical meritocratic structure of the State buffer its leadership from such fickle forces as public perception? If peace holds the high priority of cost benefit calculations of the Corporate elite... shouldn't that take precedent over posturing towards the Federation?

My take on this is that there is more to the story. Your answer amounted to a deflection of the fact that there has been no movement from the CEP towards a more complete peace. Roden can't be faulted for stonewalling a process the Caldari have yet to pursue.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#53 - 2013-12-20 15:46:37 UTC
Stage managing an incredibly peaceful forceful change of administration has probably kept the CEP very busy.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Constantin Baracca
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#54 - 2013-12-20 16:00:13 UTC
Cultural question to our Caldari friends, and obviously meaning no disrespect.

If the Federation was found to have such deep fingers in State procedures, whether the State has concurrently deep operations occurring as well in Federation space, do these "leaks" also not publicly put Caldari espionage defenses under the spotlight? I mean, the fact that we know about them and that they are so public after the fact somewhat paints the Federation as fairly competent in penetrating State controls despite its efforts to block them.

Will proverbial heads roll on the front of those who were meant to be preventing this from happening? Is this an intentional leak that does more to publicly embarrass the State (who could not then reveal what they have been doing as well to prove their own competence in the field)? Would it benefit the CEP to have a "leak" of their own?

I mean, all told, we all assume the State is trying to do the same as the Federation and probably has, but we are aware as to the kinds of things the Federation does. If CONCORD doesn't punish them (as I imagine they won't for the reasons enumerated by countless people here), is this a P.R. coup for the Federation itself?

"What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?"

-Matthew 16:26

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#55 - 2013-12-20 16:11:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Pieter Tuulinen
In the State we have never waited for Concord to fight out battles for us - Concord has never been interested in justice, just deterrent and it is very bad at deterring it's signatories.

What will happen is that the data included in these reports will be examined and will form the basis of an internal investigation. The conclusions of these investigations will never be published in a place like the IGS. Those who are identified as being responsible will have to face the consequences, but this may be lost in the routine shuffling of personnel that is part and parcel of any large organisation.

One thing my Ojaabun has taught me is that PR is only important if you give a damn about the opinion of the people it reaches. The State is less interested in impressions and more interested in specific capabilities.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Katrina Oniseki
Oniseki-Raata Internal Watch
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#56 - 2013-12-20 19:39:05 UTC
I would argue that the State has no need to publicize its various espionage and counterespionage operations, even those of the past. We did, after all, never go public with how exactly we got their highest ranking Admiral to sabotage Tripwire for us in 110, and I suspect we never will.

Scoring public political points is not something those in State authority are quite as concerned with, as we don't have elections. We're concerned with efficiency and results. Going public with your spy ops runs counter to that, and so you will (hopefully) never hear about how we handle them.

Katrina Oniseki

Pontianak Sythaeryn
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#57 - 2013-12-20 19:39:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Pontianak Sythaeryn
Roland Cassidy wrote:

Are we to dismiss all observed crime simply because other identical crimes go unaddressed due to the fact that those others are not 'caught'? To deny the express consequence for being discovered engaging in such activities is a blow to any attempt at justice.


Lets play this out shall we?

Concord decides to "punish" the Federation and takes away something many in the Federation hold dear, our many types of Cheese at the urging of the Caldari State for the crime.

Later it comes out that the Caldari was not only spying as well, but date of the information leaked show spying happening even earlier than the data in the Federation leaks. Our Federation would rightly point out how hypocritical this is, and demand something the Caldari hold dear ALSO be taken away, for justice. Sooo Concord takes all of the States... uuhh... Wine. Yea wine. (Caldari like wine, right? Work with me here my Caldari friends... just making an proverbial example). The Caldari cry foul, the Federation still isn't happy (as they still don't have their cheese), and at the end of the day, the only thing achieved is CONCORD now has all the cheese and wine.

I'm not entirely sure where I was going with this... but now I'm hungry. Does anybody have some Luminaire sharp chedder?
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#58 - 2013-12-20 20:02:28 UTC
I can't believe you did that to me. This may be the first recorded incident of a Civire craving cheese and wine.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Makoto Priano
Kirkinen-Arataka Transhuman Zenith Consulting Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#59 - 2013-12-20 20:23:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Makoto Priano
Wine is one of those universals-- though the connoisseur will find that many Caldari wine tend to run sweeter than other traditions, as Caldari wine practices historically had to account for the effect of an early frost on unharvested grapes.

Interestingly, this differs only marginally from Achuran practices, as Achura has a low mean temperature. I'm under the impression that Achuran wines tend to be based on other fruits more often, though, such as plums. Mind, this might just be because of family history.

Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?

Katrina Oniseki
Oniseki-Raata Internal Watch
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#60 - 2013-12-20 20:44:20 UTC
Dear Priano-haani, I believe you made a basic error in determining the universal constant.

It isn't wine. It's whine.

Whining is a universal constant. As are cheesy puns.

Cheese and whine.

Katrina Oniseki