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[NEWS] Further Highlander Leaks Implicate Federation In Illegal Border Breaches
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Demion Samenel
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
#21 - 2013-12-17 19:07:18 UTC
This does not come as a suprise. As war between two enteties escalates, so does its methodes getting an advantage. Spying to get intel on its neighbours, not surpised.

Captain Demion Samenel

Chief of Diplomatic Staff

News blog
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#22 - 2013-12-17 20:23:51 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Pontianak Sythaeryn wrote:
Makoto Priano wrote:
Mr. Sythaeryn, let me fix your statement: "You're the State trying to use this to secure Placid, the region you've already taken."

There. Fixed that for you.


Ms. Priano

While it may be occupied, doesn't mean they identify with you. At all.


It's a brave person indeed who thinks they can speak on behalf of the population of an entire region of space.


If I may, you are putting words in her mouth... She just said that it does not necessarily mean that, not that they do not identify with State.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#23 - 2013-12-17 21:06:53 UTC
Oh, I quite understand that. But nobody had claimed to the contrary, so since she raised the issue I felt the need to counterveil.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Shanty Anzomi
#24 - 2013-12-17 21:10:31 UTC
Jennifer Maxwell wrote:
The Gallente got caught. Simple as that.
Now they need to face the consequences of their actions.

agreed
Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#25 - 2013-12-17 21:29:38 UTC
Shanty Anzomi wrote:
Jennifer Maxwell wrote:
The Gallente got caught. Simple as that.
Now they need to face the consequences of their actions.

agreed

Drat, I hate consequences. It won't take long will it? I have a hair appointment this evening.

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.
James Syagrius
Luminaire Sovereign Solutions
#26 - 2013-12-17 23:40:38 UTC
I think that considering the nature of our opponent these actions were not only prudent but wise. I commend those responsible.

“Here also are the heralds of his praise."
Rinai Vero
Blades of Liberty
#27 - 2013-12-18 01:07:48 UTC
So called "interstellar law" didn't protect the borders of the Federation from Heth's invasion, why should the Caldari State have benefited from a legal framework they so brutally disregarded?

It seems fashionable now to condemn the Federation for the hard decisions and harsh actions taken during this war. To insist that our leaders are the ones driving further conflict. In fact, it was Tibus Heth who started this war. His megalomania was an ongoing threat to the safety of every world in the Federated Union. Forced to defend ourselves against a State guided by his aggression the Federation planned and orchestrated a military and intelligence operation with the goal of securing ourselves from that threat. We were successful. In the aftermath, Heth's clear lust for destruction catalyzed opposition to his rule of the State and he was deposed.

As for consequences? Caldari Prime may not be a planet of perfect harmony, but the security, governance and quality of life enjoyed by its citizens of all ethnicities has vastly improved. With the ouster of Tibus Heth the Caldari State once again has stable and responsible government in line with the traditional values of its Corporations and Citizens.

Y'know what? I think I'm pretty good with that.

What does concern me is that these ongoing leaks have increased the tension between our two governments. We should be doing more to take advantage of this historic opportunity to move our nations towards a lasting peace. It seems clear that some individual or parties are working to undermine any possibility of a peace process through these leaks. We in the Capsuleer community should focus our efforts on revealing those behind that agenda and opposing them, regardless of nationality.
Saya Ishikari
Ishukone-Raata Technological Research Institute
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#28 - 2013-12-18 01:43:25 UTC
I'd be just fine with things winding down, personally... But I have to ask, how is this news? Anyone with two functioning neurons knows that espionage is rampant.

"At the end of it all, we have only what we've left in our wake to be remembered by." -Kyoko Ishikari, YC 95 - YC 117
Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#29 - 2013-12-18 03:06:04 UTC
Saya Ishikari wrote:
I'd be just fine with things winding down, personally... But I have to ask, how is this news? Anyone with two functioning neurons knows that espionage is rampant.

Maby if we start ignoring it it will go away. Then we can all be friends. P

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.
Constantin Baracca
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#30 - 2013-12-18 03:52:18 UTC
Saya Ishikari wrote:
I'd be just fine with things winding down, personally... But I have to ask, how is this news? Anyone with two functioning neurons knows that espionage is rampant.


Conflict has inertia. While this is the sort of thing you would assume is going on everywhere, it's provided a neat and convenient place for the Caldari and Gallente to reinforce their negative opinions of each other. I assume there's a thread about slavery and/or senseless violence going on somewhere that provides that for the Amarrians and Matari. In the end, your average capsuleer is the same as your average baseliner; they follow the path of least resistance.

The truth is, it's easier to touch off a fight even with a piece of news as boring as this than to just ignore it. When this goes away, we'll have this argument moved to another thread to maintain the volume of castigation. Which may happen sooner rather than later, as it's hard to fake indignation about something so droll and maintain one's credibility for intelligent thought.

One of the problems is that independent press organizations can inform everyone of everything at once, or they can slowly release their information over the course of months or years to stretch out the sales from that particular line of inquiry. You can't blame them for opting for the latter. It's hard to come across a high volume of newsworthy stories for an interstellar readership.

"What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?"

-Matthew 16:26
Saya Ishikari
Ishukone-Raata Technological Research Institute
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#31 - 2013-12-18 04:12:17 UTC
Constantin Baracca wrote:
Saya Ishikari wrote:
I'd be just fine with things winding down, personally... But I have to ask, how is this news? Anyone with two functioning neurons knows that espionage is rampant.


Conflict has inertia. While this is the sort of thing you would assume is going on everywhere, it's provided a neat and convenient place for the Caldari and Gallente to reinforce their negative opinions of each other. I assume there's a thread about slavery and/or senseless violence going on somewhere that provides that for the Amarrians and Matari. In the end, your average capsuleer is the same as your average baseliner; they follow the path of least resistance.

The truth is, it's easier to touch off a fight even with a piece of news as boring as this than to just ignore it. When this goes away, we'll have this argument moved to another thread to maintain the volume of castigation. Which may happen sooner rather than later, as it's hard to fake indignation about something so droll and maintain one's credibility for intelligent thought.

One of the problems is that independent press organizations can inform everyone of everything at once, or they can slowly release their information over the course of months or years to stretch out the sales from that particular line of inquiry. You can't blame them for opting for the latter. It's hard to come across a high volume of newsworthy stories for an interstellar readership.

Oh, believe me, I know enough about the politics and patterns involved to know that you speak the truth. And I have to say, you have a gift for clear, concise presentation that I find refreshing.

"At the end of it all, we have only what we've left in our wake to be remembered by." -Kyoko Ishikari, YC 95 - YC 117
Constantin Baracca
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#32 - 2013-12-18 04:25:00 UTC
Saya Ishikari wrote:
Constantin Baracca wrote:
Saya Ishikari wrote:
I'd be just fine with things winding down, personally... But I have to ask, how is this news? Anyone with two functioning neurons knows that espionage is rampant.


Conflict has inertia. While this is the sort of thing you would assume is going on everywhere, it's provided a neat and convenient place for the Caldari and Gallente to reinforce their negative opinions of each other. I assume there's a thread about slavery and/or senseless violence going on somewhere that provides that for the Amarrians and Matari. In the end, your average capsuleer is the same as your average baseliner; they follow the path of least resistance.

The truth is, it's easier to touch off a fight even with a piece of news as boring as this than to just ignore it. When this goes away, we'll have this argument moved to another thread to maintain the volume of castigation. Which may happen sooner rather than later, as it's hard to fake indignation about something so droll and maintain one's credibility for intelligent thought.

One of the problems is that independent press organizations can inform everyone of everything at once, or they can slowly release their information over the course of months or years to stretch out the sales from that particular line of inquiry. You can't blame them for opting for the latter. It's hard to come across a high volume of newsworthy stories for an interstellar readership.

Oh, believe me, I know enough about the politics and patterns involved to know that you speak the truth. And I have to say, you have a gift for clear, concise presentation that I find refreshing.


And that gift, my dear, is the finest cognac a man of my salary can buy.

"What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?"

-Matthew 16:26
Aarin Kyasura
Doomheim
#33 - 2013-12-18 04:27:32 UTC
I'll drink to that!
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#34 - 2013-12-18 08:01:47 UTC
The fact is that there's really no grist to the argument mill here. People don't care that the Federation has been spying on the State - whilst there might be some shrugging and muttering to the effect of "What do you expect from the Feddies?" espionage is a timehonoured tradition in the well-worn fabric of our relationships.

I'm neither surprised nor excited about it.

What it does do is present both sides with yet another excuse to whip out the old hates. Heuroment. Caldari Prime. Malkalen. Caldari Prime. Nouvelle Rouvenor. Caldari Prime. Caldari Prime. Caldari Prime.

Watch me as I completely refuse to engage on that basis. Like my good kirjuun, Saya Ishikari, I am actually pretty happy with the state of affairs on Home, these days. I'd have preferred kicking the Gallente completely off the planet, but this solution actually has a chance of holding, so I can live with it.

The warzone will do what the warzone will do. The situation is as fluid as it needs to be and we're doing all we can do, there. It needs the diplomats and politicians to start caring now and, until they do, it'll stay as it is.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#35 - 2013-12-18 10:07:55 UTC
Fascinating, but unsurprising.

Roden, much like Harner and Duvailer before him is a President who appears to be wholly disinterested in any meaningful dialogue with the Caldari State or its citizens in order to display his Hawkish and strong-man credentials to a Federal electorate apparently more than satisfied with continuing the current conflict at any cost. If continued belligerence against the Caldari people is the present foundation of Federal foreign policy then it is understandable that illegal violations of State territorial sovereignty will occur. That such policies are intertwined with an increase in strength of the Federal military-industrial complex under Roden, the trampling of rights by the thugs of the Black Eagles under Blaque, and the rise of far-right nationalist groups and the intolerant, ignorant and jingoistic rhetoric they espouse that give birth to extremist murderers such as Gerne Broteau then one wonders what hope for peace there truly can be in the future with a Federation ruled by corruption, secret police, fear, and extremist nationalist politics.

Kurilaivonen|Concern
Rinai Vero
Blades of Liberty
#36 - 2013-12-18 17:09:43 UTC
I'm curious, what offer of "meaningful dialogue" is it that you perceive Roden to have stonewalled?
James Syagrius
Luminaire Sovereign Solutions
#37 - 2013-12-19 01:13:15 UTC
Rinai Vero wrote:
I'm curious, what offer of "meaningful dialogue" is it that you perceive Roden to have stonewalled?

I was wondering the same thing.

As to...
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
in order to display his Hawkish and strong-man credentials to a Federal electorate apparently more than satisfied with continuing the current conflict at any cost.

Prove it.

“Here also are the heralds of his praise."
Saya Ishikari
Ishukone-Raata Technological Research Institute
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#38 - 2013-12-19 01:44:49 UTC
All claims to the contrary, evidence points the other direction. Regardless of perspective, Caldari Prime was a sound defeat militarily. The Navy lost its major forces and foothold in Luminaire completely. All the Federation had to do was blockade the planet, which they clearly had the forces to spare for, and wear down the forces on the ground through attrition. Any resistance thereafter would have been trivial by comparison.

Instead, we ended up with a negotiated settlement. While not the perfect cake in anyone's opinion, it's good enough. It's a start.

I recall what I heard after the settlement as well. Mostly, it was grumbling and accusations of conspiracy against Ishukone for their role in the negotiations. Which was nothing but the noise of deflating egos when a bit of diplomacy from the one corp that wasn't on the Heth bandwagon accomplished more than all the force that was present in the battle, even though the original attack on Home in one ten laid the groundwork after a fashion.

In short, there already has been dialogue. But there remains to be seen the results of the current conflict of pride versus sense, which will determine what follows.

"At the end of it all, we have only what we've left in our wake to be remembered by." -Kyoko Ishikari, YC 95 - YC 117
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#39 - 2013-12-19 02:49:32 UTC
I was there and I say that nobody won the Third battle of Caldari Prime. Nobody.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Saya Ishikari
Ishukone-Raata Technological Research Institute
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#40 - 2013-12-19 03:10:57 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
I was there and I say that nobody won the Third battle of Caldari Prime. Nobody.

Since I know what thoughts lie behind the words, kirjuun, I'll concede that point. We've discussed it, nothing has changed there.

"At the end of it all, we have only what we've left in our wake to be remembered by." -Kyoko Ishikari, YC 95 - YC 117