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PvE C2/C3 Loki vs Legion
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Lirs Corum
Useless Idea
Kybernauts Clade
#1 - 2013-12-15 20:39:02 UTC
Some people say that minmatar ships are better for pve some say that Legion is best in WH.

So which one of those two is better in WH space for running sites solo and why?
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#2 - 2013-12-15 21:35:36 UTC
Neither are Tengu so.... doesnt really matter.

(Loki is god awful for ANY pve though)

There is no Bob.

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Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#3 - 2013-12-15 22:23:27 UTC
Might as well use a drake
Sith1s Spectre
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#4 - 2013-12-15 22:23:44 UTC
Legion is the better of those 2 due to the fact it has a defensive sub with an active tank bonus

Resident forum troll and fashion consultant
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#5 - 2013-12-16 15:14:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Xequecal
Sith1s Spectre wrote:
Legion is the better of those 2 due to the fact it has a defensive sub with an active tank bonus


Loki is far superior due to the fact that EM/Therm resists are the only resists that actually matter when running C3s in a cruiser. You can reach 900 on-paper DPS with an armor Loki with faction gyrostabs (850 with gyro IIs) that can still effortlessly tank C3 sites due to its racial resists. You won't actually apply 900 DPS because of falloff, but you can get pretty close to that number. It's not quite as good as a Tengu, but it's far cheaper (no Gist or Pith boosters required) and still runs the sites 90% as fast.
Icarus Able
Refuse.Resist
#6 - 2013-12-16 15:43:11 UTC
If you are runnig solo Legion is probably better, but if you are in a group everyone loves having a loki.
Frantic Freddie
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2013-12-16 19:42:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Frantic Freddie
If you calculate actual DPS from, for instance, a C3 Fortification Frontier Stronghold, the actual damage distribution is 35/35/15/15, not omni. The higher-class the wormhole, the more omni the damage is. EM/Therm matter the most, and if you can pull extreme range (think 240km), you can actually kite the entire (sans turrets!) site without taking any damage whatsoever in C3.

We've run it in both Legions and Lokis. Here are some sample fits that will handle all anoms in C3 handily (get a partner or two or a logi for data/relic sites!). The Loki is also distinguished in that if you go for a 2Bn+ fit with a full Crystal set and a Strong Blue Pill, it can actually tank most C4 sites solo, too. You really want the probing subsystem so you can equip an expanded probe launcher and watch for ship signatures. It's saved my T3 numerous times if I'm running sites unscouted, warping off to an aligned safe right as the tackler uncloaks...

Here's a cheap, effective C3 Loki fit we've flown with good success. Range is a bit of a challenge; you'll typically be using Barrage most of the time, and Hail will come into play mostly for the battleships. Costs less than 400M ISK, and you'll usually net 50-70M ISK/site. You do the math on how effective it is :)

[Loki, C3 Cheap]

Damage Control II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Power Diagnostic System II

Pith C-Type Large Shield Booster
Shield Boost Amplifier I
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Cap Recharger II
10MN Afterburner II

425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M
425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M
425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M
425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M
425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M
Expanded Probe Launcher I, Combat Scanner Probe I

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I

Loki Offensive - Projectile Scoping Array
Loki Engineering - Capacitor Regeneration Matrix
Loki Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst
Loki Defensive - Adaptive Shielding
Loki Electronics - Emergent Locus Analyzer


Hornet EC-300 x5
Warrior II x5


And my go-to solo C3 Legion anom fit, also well-proven:

[Legion, C3 Cheap]

Damage Control II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Medium Armor Repairer II
Medium Armor Repairer II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II

Large Capacitor Battery II
Cap Recharger II
10MN Afterburner II

Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Expanded Probe Launcher I, Combat Scanner Probe I

Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Medium Anti-Thermic Pump I

Legion Defensive - Nanobot Injector
Legion Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst
Legion Offensive - Liquid Crystal Magnifiers
Legion Engineering - Capacitor Regeneration Matrix
Legion Electronics - Emergent Locus Analyzer

Which one is better? Tough question...

Their C3 site-completion times and cost/performance are virtually identical. They are both cheap and effective for wormhole PvE. The Loki is faster, has a slightly-quicker skill train, a thicker buffer, and a bit better DPS application. The Legion is slightly more expensive, has a slightly longer skill train, uses dramatically less ammo (therefore better isk/hour, as there is no reason to not use T2 or faction ammo!), and has much better neut resistance (which it needs due to cap-dependent weapons). Both of them improve dramatically with better skills, better implants, T2 rigs, and faction gear. The Legion in particular really benefits from taking the rigs to T2.

I like 'em both. Take your pick. You can also run C3 sites in a sentry Proteus with pretty good results (lots of drone micro-management, though), and of course a Tengu is king for "park it, turn on a repper, and snooze your way through the C3 site".
Lirs Corum
Useless Idea
Kybernauts Clade
#8 - 2013-12-16 19:42:48 UTC
Icarus Able wrote:
If you are runnig solo Legion is probably better, but if you are in a group everyone loves having a loki.



Lets say 30% game time i will run WH solo and 70% with HML tengu and dominix.
Lirs Corum
Useless Idea
Kybernauts Clade
#9 - 2013-12-16 19:52:51 UTC
Frantic Freddie wrote:
If you calculate actual DPS from, for instance, a C3 Fortification Frontier Stronghold, the actual damage distribution is 35/35/15/15, not omni. The higher-class the wormhole, the more omni the damage is. EM/Therm matter the most, and if you can pull extreme range (think 240km), you can actually kite the entire (sans turrets!) site without taking any damage whatsoever in C3.

We've run it in both Legions and Lokis. Here are some sample fits that will handle all anoms in C3 handily (get a partner or two or a logi for data/relic sites!). The Loki is also distinguished in that if you go for a 2Bn+ fit with a full Crystal set and a Strong Blue Pill, it can actually tank most C4 sites solo, too. You really want the probing subsystem so you can equip an expanded probe launcher and watch for ship signatures. It's saved my T3 numerous times if I'm running sites unscouted, warping off to an aligned safe right as the tackler uncloaks...

Here's a cheap, effective C3 Loki fit we've flown with good success. Range is a bit of a challenge; you'll typically be using Barrage most of the time, and Hail will come into play mostly for the battleships. Costs less than 400M ISK, and you'll usually net 50-70M ISK/site. You do the math on how effective it is :)

[Loki, C3 Cheap]

Damage Control II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Power Diagnostic System II

Pith C-Type Large Shield Booster
Shield Boost Amplifier I
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Cap Recharger II
10MN Afterburner II

425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M
425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M
425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M
425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M
425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M
Expanded Probe Launcher I, Combat Scanner Probe I

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I

Loki Offensive - Projectile Scoping Array
Loki Engineering - Capacitor Regeneration Matrix
Loki Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst
Loki Defensive - Adaptive Shielding
Loki Electronics - Emergent Locus Analyzer


Hornet EC-300 x5
Warrior II x5


And my go-to solo C3 Legion anom fit, also well-proven:

[Legion, C3 Cheap]

Damage Control II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Medium Armor Repairer II
Medium Armor Repairer II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II

Large Capacitor Battery II
Cap Recharger II
10MN Afterburner II

Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Expanded Probe Launcher I, Combat Scanner Probe I

Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Medium Anti-Thermic Pump I

Legion Defensive - Nanobot Injector
Legion Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst
Legion Offensive - Liquid Crystal Magnifiers
Legion Engineering - Capacitor Regeneration Matrix
Legion Electronics - Emergent Locus Analyzer

Which one is better? Tough question...

Their C3 site-completion times and cost/performance are virtually identical. They are both cheap and effective for wormhole PvE. The Loki is faster, has a slightly-quicker skill train, a thicker buffer, and a bit better DPS application. The Legion is slightly more expensive, has a slightly longer skill train, uses dramatically less ammo (therefore better isk/hour, as there is no reason to not use T2 or faction ammo!), and has much better neut resistance (which it needs due to cap-dependent weapons). Both of them improve dramatically with better skills, better implants, T2 rigs, and faction gear. The Legion in particular really benefits from taking the rigs to T2.

I like 'em both. Take your pick. You can also run C3 sites in a sentry Proteus with pretty good results (lots of drone micro-management, though), and of course a Tengu is king for "park it, turn on a repper, and snooze your way through the C3 site".


At last someone who knows how to help :)

To be honet I hate how the "Loki Engineering - Capacitor Regeneration Matrix" looks like so I propobly pick a Legion :)

Is there any resonable fit for WH loki with Turret Concurrence Registry + any other Eng Sub?
Frantic Freddie
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2013-12-16 22:25:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Frantic Freddie
Lirs Corum wrote:
Is there any resonable fit for WH loki with Turret Concurrence Registry + any other Eng Sub?


You really want to be cap stable (or almost cap-stable) against the heavy neuts of Sleepers in C3 and above. The neuting isn't awful, but if you aren't at least minimally stable with your tank running, they make a tough situation worse. Typically just 30% cap stable is enough that you'll only run low during multi-battleship spawns, and cutting back some tank or afterburner for a little while is often enough to give you enough cap to work with. Cap boosters are pretty much required for C4 and above due to the neuts if running solo, and 400DPS of outgoing damage gives you about 15-minute completion times, so there's no real worry about running out of cap boosters during a site as long as you stock up between each one.

The Turret Concurrence Registry is really an artillery-oriented subsystem due to the tracking (autocannons track very well) and optimal (autocannons have no optimal range to speak of; it's all falloff) bonus. But in order to fit artillery, you typically swap out the Capacitor Regeneration Matrix for a Power Core multiplier so you have enough powergrid to do so. Arties have terrible tracking compared to autocannons -- and it's not great even with the Concurrence subsystem! -- so to hit the frigates, you swap into the Immobility Drivers subsystem to web down frigates (6km orbit) and cruisers (22km orbit). At this point, you've lost most of your mid-slots, so shield-tanking is kind of silly. Time to swap to armor -- yay Winmatar! -- therefore you bust out the adaptive Augmentor, and you end up with a fit like this that's a bit dependent on cap boosters if it's primaried.

[Loki, C3 Armor]

Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Corelum C-Type Medium Armor Repairer
Corelum C-Type Medium Armor Repairer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer

Medium Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 400
Federation Navy Stasis Webifier
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
10MN Afterburner II

720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Quake M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Quake M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Quake M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Quake M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Quake M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Quake M

Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump II
Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump II
Medium Anti-Explosive Pump II

Loki Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst
Loki Offensive - Turret Concurrence Registry
Loki Engineering - Power Core Multiplier
Loki Electronics - Immobility Drivers
Loki Defensive - Adaptive Augmenter


I'm sure some would argue over the painter vs. a cap recharger, and possibly over 720mm vs. 650mm arties so you could fit a cap battery instead of a cap booster. There's plenty of wiggle room, and this fit is not optimized nor flown, but based on the stats... it should work out just fine, too. Like an artillery Legion :) Tweak as needed to your flying style.

The ship ends up fairly expensive -- about 800M ISK -- and I wouldn't fly this without a scanning alt. Without an Emergent Locus Analyzer or its ilk, there's no way to alert you when ships come in-system or when new wormholes open up. Those two events usually mean a gank is forthcoming, and if I'm flying solo it means "scoop the MTU, leave the wrecks, and GTFO". If, like I do, you like to fly with the Mobile Depot, it's only two Combat scans away from a probe-down, so usually grabbing the loot & running also means quickly refitting to my cloaky interdiction-nullified Legion.
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#11 - 2013-12-17 02:33:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Xequecal
Frantic Freddie wrote:
If you calculate actual DPS from, for instance, a C3 Fortification Frontier Stronghold, the actual damage distribution is 35/35/15/15, not omni. The higher-class the wormhole, the more omni the damage is. EM/Therm matter the most, and if you can pull extreme range (think 240km), you can actually kite the entire (sans turrets!) site without taking any damage whatsoever in C3.


Exp/Kin damage is irrelevant because it's all in missile form. Sleeper BS missiles have an exp radius >300m and an exp velocity of around 75m/sec which means you're taking 40% of that damage even if webbed to a standstill and basically none of it if you're moving. It's also impossible to screw up transversal vs. missiles as long as you don't slow down, you can definitely screw up your transversal against the lasers and take full DPS.

Kiting the site at 240km is way too slow, even a Tengu should use HAMs to speed the completion up.

This is absolutely fine in C3 sites, runs them all easily except Recursive Depot and Frontier Database. (and those are impossible not because of the DPS, but because of the mass neuting that makes it impossible to run any kind of tank)

Seriously, don't go run sites in a 5-gun Legion. That's so slow and awful it would make me want to kill myself. Also, there's no reason to fit a probe launcher in your site-running setup when you can carry a depot and just refit to it when you need to scan your way out.

[New Setup 2]
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Corelum C-Type Medium Armor Repairer
True Sansha Armor Thermic Hardener

Domination 10MN Afterburner
Large Capacitor Battery II
Tracking Computer II,Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II,Optimal Range Script

425mm AutoCannon II,Hail M
425mm AutoCannon II,Hail M
425mm AutoCannon II,Hail M
425mm AutoCannon II,Hail M
425mm AutoCannon II,Hail M
425mm AutoCannon II,Hail M

Medium Projectile Burst Aerator II
Medium Anti-EM Pump I
Medium Anti-Thermic Pump I

Loki Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst
Loki Engineering - Augmented Capacitor Reservoir
Loki Defensive - Adaptive Augmenter
Loki Offensive - Projectile Scoping Array
Loki Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer

Drones_Active=Hobgoblin II,5
Frantic Freddie
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2013-12-17 03:01:59 UTC
You must have missed the reason I carry the expanded launcher. It is for ship sigs to avoid ganks, not necessarily for scanning one's way out!
Lirs Corum
Useless Idea
Kybernauts Clade
#13 - 2013-12-17 15:45:32 UTC
Xequecal wrote:


Exp/Kin damage is irrelevant because it's all in missile form. Sleeper BS missiles have an exp radius >300m and an exp velocity of around 75m/sec which means you're taking 40% of that damage even if webbed to a standstill and basically none of it if you're moving. It's also impossible to screw up transversal vs. missiles as long as you don't slow down, you can definitely screw up your transversal against the lasers and take full DPS.



So the only resists I need in C2 an C3 WH space are the EM/Temal and everything else will be tanked out by speed?
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#14 - 2013-12-17 17:41:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Xequecal
Lirs Corum wrote:
So the only resists I need in C2 an C3 WH space are the EM/Temal and everything else will be tanked out by speed?


Pretty much, yeah. I suppose if you tried to run Unsecured Frontier Receiver in a single-rep setup and completely cocked up killing any of the webbing frigs before they reached orbit range, your tank might break before you are able to kill enough to resume speed tanking, but even then you can just warp off, since missiles can't wreck and your tank will always break predictably.

As long as you're actually moving though, you're basically immune to the exp/kin damage sleepers do.

This only applies to cruisers, of course. Don't try this in like a Sleipnir or any other BC, they have larger sigs and you'll die horribly.

Quote:
You must have missed the reason I carry the expanded launcher. It is for ship sigs to avoid ganks, not necessarily for scanning one's way out!


I'm not sure how this helps much. You can see new cosmic signatures appearing on the system scanner, cloaky T3s can't be probed anyway, and anything else you will see on dscan. It's not like they can send an interceptor to tackle you, when the sleepers swap to him he'll pop in about three seconds.
Frantic Freddie
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2013-12-17 20:08:32 UTC
Xequecal wrote:
I'm not sure how this helps much. You can see new cosmic signatures appearing on the system scanner, cloaky T3s can't be probed anyway, and anything else you will see on dscan. It's not like they can send an interceptor to tackle you, when the sleepers swap to him he'll pop in about three seconds.


D-Scan is only 14AU. Most times when I'm running sites, the known wormholes are out of d-scan range. Expanded probes are 64AU apiece, so I can guarantee coverage of the entire system (and can keep my own combat probes off d-scan through careful positioning).

All I can offer is my experience: I've saved my T3 multiple times by detecting the opening of new wormholes and ships in the system. Now, if you can fit that expanded probe launcher on your scout character and are dual-boxing, that works fine, too. If I'm truly solo (rare, but happens), d-scan plus combat probes are my best bet to escape with my ship.