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From Hell's Dark Heart I Stab at Thee
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Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#21 - 2013-12-14 05:02:32 UTC
Since freighters can't run rigs, what can be done?
+1 on the "scorched earth" idea.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Kiryen O'Bannon
SUNDERING
Goonswarm Federation
#22 - 2013-12-14 05:15:43 UTC
Clever, original, ang guaranteed to generate tears. +1

Eternal Father, King of birth, /Who didst create the heaven and earth, /And bid the planets and the sun/ Their own appointed orbits run; /O hear us when we seek thy grace /For those who soar through outer space.
hmskrecik
TransMine Group
Gluten Free Cartel
#23 - 2013-12-14 08:47:38 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Gankers who only want expensive killmails will still get them. The only purpose of this is to raise a gigantic middle finger at for-profit gankers, which is just about as EVE as the for-profit gankers themselves.

That got me thinking and when I did it, I came to opposite conclusions.

Ganking for profit is a part of game mechanism and of game economy. I'm writing it as a carebear which is to receive pointy end of stick but even then I can understand the motives. KB whoring on the other side, as many other forms of meta game, is something which I sincerely despise and those are which I would like to show big middle finger to (though I have no idea how without resorting to metagaming).
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#24 - 2013-12-14 10:30:13 UTC
I like it.

I also like the idea of a way to spoof carrying expensive cargo, hauler bait Blink
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2013-12-14 11:23:45 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Being able to ruin someone else's day is the cornerstone upon which EVE was built.



Agree. The incineration module would mean tears would flow both ways.

+1 to the incineration unit

Also, make it show up as something else on ship scan and give a false return on a cargo scan than makes it look as if the hold is full of a-type modules.

With that fitted, I'd fly around hisec all day in an iteron farming pirates :-)

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Mag's
Azn Empire
#26 - 2013-12-14 11:31:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Corvald Tyrska wrote:
ShahFluffers wrote:
Quote:
The issue here is the complete lack of counter for a hauler other than significantly under-loading the cargo hold or taking low value goods in which case, why bother.

- have insta-undock bookmarks outside high-risk stations to avoid getting caught.

- have a friend/alt use a web to make your Industrial/Orca/Freighter insta-warp from a gate.

- have a friend/alt follow you in a Command Ship or Tech 3 with links to boost your tank.

- have a friend/alt follow you in a Logistics ship to repair as much damage as possible (remember, you only have to negate enough incoming damage to stall for CONCORD's arrival).

- use different ships for different types of cargo (ex. Covert-Ops and Blockade Runners for moving implants, boosters, and other high-value-low-volume items... Freighters for high-volume, low-value items... etc).

- fill your cargohold with numerous piles of low-volume, random junk to confuse cargo scanners.

- use routes other than those most travelled




And why should ganking not be profitable?


Many of those options do not apply on undocking. An instawarp can help you but if you are trading at a major trade hub like Jita or Amarr you are virtually guaranteed to be bumped on the undock, intentionally or not, making the instawarp useless. Most haulers will die before they even reach warp as they are alpha'd in a single salvo from a Tornado which starts locking the second you appear on the overview and fires once the cargo scan of the corp-mate has run.

Some players would likely use these ships from destination to destination and many of them will be caught and killed by people looking to pad their Killboard. Smarter players would use these rigged ships to get out of trade hubs and then transfer the cargo to another, travel fit ship at a nearby safe/station. There would still be plenty of scope for ganking for profit at gates but these rigs would likely remove it from around station undocks. Players would need to adapt and the smart ones would still prosper.

To turn your question around, why should ganking be profitable if you don't need to work at it? Popping haulers on the undock is even easier than mining.
They do apply on undocking in major trade hubs, because I use instawarp undocking spots all the time. They have never once failed to work and I have never been bumped there. So I'm not sure why you would say otherwise.

Also your turn around question works both ways. Why shouldn't ganks be profitable, when the ones being ganked don't want to work at making it harder?

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Sigras
Conglomo
#27 - 2013-12-14 12:20:27 UTC
This is actually a very good, very eve esque way to counter suicide ganking.

The thing that annoys me is that there is basically a cap on the amount of isk you can carry in any given ship. Even pyerite will push a freighter over the limit and into the profitable zone. Its a simple calculation, and if you happen to sneak through with more than the magical threshold worth of cargo its just because the suicide gankers werent doing their job.

It's a very simple calculation as to whether or someone is profitable and after the determination has been made, there is very little that can be done to stop a gank. There is no counter to suicide ganking my only option is to stay under the limit. That would be like saying "youre going to die if you go into this system; you cant bring a bigger gang and fight us, you cant try to run the blockade, your only option is to not go into this system."

that being said, I think there should be stiff penalties to both cargo space and agility for fitting this module/rig, but there also needs to be a way to put it on freighters/JFs
Sigras
Conglomo
#28 - 2013-12-14 12:28:47 UTC
Mag's wrote:
They do apply on undocking in major trade hubs, because I use instawarp undocking spots all the time. They have never once failed to work and I have never been bumped there. So I'm not sure why you would say otherwise.

Also your turn around question works both ways. Why shouldn't ganks be profitable, when the ones being ganked don't want to work at making it harder?

I'm going to issue you a challenge; fly 10 trips from Jita to Oursulaert with a station egg in your cargo hold, feel free to use every trick in the book to avoid being ganked and then come back and talk about how avoidable ganks are . . .

If you are profitable enough, you will be killed, no question about it; it is completely unavoidable.
Altered Ego
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#29 - 2013-12-14 12:40:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Altered Ego
Excellent idea!

It should certainly be a rig. This would exclude freighters, but that is okay, as freighters should be flown with care.

EDIT :

Maybe the T1 rig would guarantee 50% of the cargo would be destroyed, while the T2 rig would mean 100%.
Altered Ego
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#30 - 2013-12-14 12:54:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Altered Ego
Double post
Caleb Seremshur
Bloodhorn
Patchwork Freelancers
#31 - 2013-12-14 13:31:10 UTC
Seranova Farreach wrote:
most gankers are just bored Nullbears who have made too much money from semi afk sentry-carrior ratting i bet.


Ratting is not that valuable really. Unless you do belt rstting and get an officer spawn it's probably better just to run fw missions.
Kal'el Nirukhi
Spartan Industries
#32 - 2013-12-14 13:40:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Kal'el Nirukhi
I like this idea! It is comparable by the dye packs used in high value/ money transports.


rig draw back should be a large percentage cargo reduction ( the thermite-based incendiary structure takes a large portion of your original cargo).

- specific rig skills reduce the rig penalty
- T2 rig has a smaller base factor of cargo reduction
Caleb Seremshur
Bloodhorn
Patchwork Freelancers
#33 - 2013-12-14 13:45:59 UTC
Sigras wrote:
Mag's wrote:
They do apply on undocking in major trade hubs, because I use instawarp undocking spots all the time. They have never once failed to work and I have never been bumped there. So I'm not sure why you would say otherwise.

Also your turn around question works both ways. Why shouldn't ganks be profitable, when the ones being ganked don't want to work at making it harder?

I'm going to issue you a challenge; fly 10 trips from Jita to Oursulaert with a station egg in your cargo hold, feel free to use every trick in the book to avoid being ganked and then come back and talk about how avoidable ganks are . . .

If you are profitable enough, you will be killed, no question about it; it is completely unavoidable.


Say that to all the offline poses in highsec.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#34 - 2013-12-14 13:46:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Sigras wrote:
Mag's wrote:
They do apply on undocking in major trade hubs, because I use instawarp undocking spots all the time. They have never once failed to work and I have never been bumped there. So I'm not sure why you would say otherwise.

Also your turn around question works both ways. Why shouldn't ganks be profitable, when the ones being ganked don't want to work at making it harder?

I'm going to issue you a challenge; fly 10 trips from Jita to Oursulaert with a station egg in your cargo hold, feel free to use every trick in the book to avoid being ganked and then come back and talk about how avoidable ganks are . . .

If you are profitable enough, you will be killed, no question about it; it is completely unavoidable.

I'd ask why I was taking a station egg from Jita to Oursulaert to begin with tbh. One of the ways you avoid ganks, is not to make yourself a target by doing silly things. I would class your request as fitting that bill.
But that's not to say it cannot be done. If this was in any way a 'need to' task, then I would employ other ways you can use to avoid ganks.

Would I be 100% risk free? No, but I don't claim it will be or that people should be. But neither would a gank be completely unavoidable. I merely say that people should use the tools already provided and work for their safety. If they decide to fly solo and do nothing, then chances are they'll come a cropper.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
supernova ranger
The End of Eternity
#35 - 2013-12-14 21:38:47 UTC
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
Seranova Farreach wrote:
most gankers are just bored Nullbears who have made too much money from semi afk sentry-carrior ratting i bet.


Ratting is not that valuable really. Unless you do belt rstting and get an officer spawn it's probably better just to run fw missions.


lol, maybe for nullsec drones sites (max 50m per hour) that suck unless they get escalations... For everything else you can expect 100m+ per hour for solid ratting characters + the profit from the rare and chance based officer mods
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#36 - 2013-12-14 22:44:44 UTC
Apocryphal Noise wrote:
Make an insta-undock bookmark in a shuttle, never get ganked on Jita undock again. Alternatively, fly a freighter.


People hang around at that undock with the deliberate intent to bumb you out if alignment giving them the time they need to scan your hold and do some ganking. Self destruct module should booby trap the wreck too, so it explodes when opened dealing damage to all ships within the 2.5km range of opening.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
Shedao Penken
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#37 - 2013-12-15 05:41:10 UTC
As far as i know if you make a insta undock that is straight ahead and wait till you are at the speed needed for warp you can't be bumped. My orca insta jumps out of rens constantly
Coyote Laughing
#38 - 2013-12-15 07:45:16 UTC
Just the clutter of a bunch of ships at the undock point is really annoying, there should be some game mechanism that keeps it clear.

Perhaps ships could be ejected at 5x their maximum velocity (microwarp speeds), in a launcher scene like from the old Battlestar Galactica series.

When you come through a stargate (or relog after disconnection), you end up in a random location spread out about 10 to 15km in radius - why can't stations do the same?

l8r \o/
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2013-12-15 11:05:09 UTC
Coyote Laughing wrote:
Just the clutter of a bunch of ships at the undock point is really annoying, there should be some game mechanism that keeps it clear.

Perhaps ships could be ejected at 5x their maximum velocity (microwarp speeds), in a launcher scene like from the old Battlestar Galactica series.

When you come through a stargate (or relog after disconnection), you end up in a random location spread out about 10 to 15km in radius - why can't stations do the same?


I've always been tempted to clear that clutter of ships outside Jita with a small fleet of smartbomb battleships.

The only thing that's stopped me doing it is the inevitable sec status hit :-)

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#40 - 2013-12-15 14:57:30 UTC
EVE is not compatible with the concept of an apex predator.

An apex predator is the top of a food chain, and is limited in numbers by the presence of prey needed to sustain it.
In EVE, any tactic or ship that works too well, will create an imbalance instead, because popularity is not diminished by resources, as in nature.

This means everything needs to come full circle, and the bottom of the chain needs to prey on the top of the chain, or else everyone will want to play at the "top".

Since the concept of ganking for profit is not well established as being out of balance, this idea would seem at first to shift the balance more in favor of the haulers.

But like anything in EVE, it would need a counter.
Possibly expensive, but something that would let a ganker shield the valued cargo...

My suggestion, as a counter:
The "take one for the team" module.
This module extends the ganking ships shields around the explosive charges in the wreck, delaying their blast until this completes.
(Ganking ship may need to get into X range of the wreck to work)
No loot can be taken before this is done, or else the charge detonates as planned, destroying it.

If successful, the module absorbs the blast, sparing the cargo... at the expense of destroying the ganker's ship.
(They took one for the team)

In high sec, this would be a race... a ganker needs to sacrifice themselves before Concord pops them first. Possibly an additional ship that was not involved could do it, but this would add the cost of that ship to the expense of the gank too.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
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