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Trading Scam Protection for Rookies

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XvXTeacherVxV
Be Nice Inc.
Prismatic Legion
#21 - 2013-12-12 18:15:23 UTC
+1. They need to redo the trade window. Sometimes the change in isk value doesn't even register on the other party's side of things which makes it not incredibly difficult, but completely impossible to see the change. (As in, it doesn't just change from 500m to 500k in the last second, but it never actually changes in the UI at all.) I don't think CCP should ban scams outright but if the UI never even changes it's not a scam. It's an exploit.
Can you see the rapier?: http://imgur.com/aFelCpv,GH6lqDE
Mag's
Azn Empire
#22 - 2013-12-12 18:40:14 UTC
While it sucks to lose a plex this way, please take it as a lesson learned and NEVER use the trade window with people you don't know. Or even with people you do, when it comes to large amounts of ISK. We have a contract system and you can sell them on the market, always use those tools instead.

Sorry for your loss.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#23 - 2013-12-12 19:30:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Rekk Tsero wrote:


How i said: Do not have any problems with that big bad world thing. Ingame loss...no problem. But real money? That can and should not be (and with my idea it is an easy prevention).


It wasn't real money though. You had game time stolen (via an in-game item, which you did not own). That is how the PLEX for isk thing works without it being an RMT.

Selling via trade is always a risky proposition. I'd recommend contracts next time if you are going to try selling PLEX.

Oh and be advised there are contract scams. So check everything 2x (the price you pay, or the amount you recieve, and what you'll get) is smart.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Pew Terror
All of it
#24 - 2013-12-12 20:06:08 UTC
Welcome to EvE!

To help you in your transition, imagine going on vacation. You only have foreign currency and just landed at your destination and need to exchange money, would you:

A) Use the official bank with the shiny building that demands a bit of tax in exchange for a transaction, or
B) Follow that shady dude into some back alley who promises you a good deal

You choose B and are wondering now why it didnt turn out so well.
Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2013-12-12 20:57:35 UTC
Pew Terror wrote:
Welcome to EvE!

To help you in your transition, imagine going on vacation. You only have foreign currency and just landed at your destination and need to exchange money, would you:

A) Use the official bank with the shiny building that demands a bit of tax in exchange for a transaction, or
B) Follow that shady dude into some back alley who promises you a good deal

You choose B and are wondering now why it didnt turn out so well.

This doesn't matter. Bad UI is bad UI. CCP obviously did not see this coming. If they did, and still haven't done anything about it, then they're incredibly stupid.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#26 - 2013-12-12 21:36:22 UTC
They haven't done anything about it because there are 9001 other more important things that have a greater effect on the larger 99.9% of EVE. Contracts exist and offer all the trade security you could possibly want and so reworking the trade window (which I will agree needs to be done) can wait until some other time that isn't right now.

Never not use contracts.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#27 - 2013-12-12 22:51:54 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
They haven't done anything about it because there are 9001 other more important things that have a greater effect on the larger 99.9% of EVE. Contracts exist and offer all the trade security you could possibly want and so reworking the trade window (which I will agree needs to be done) can wait until some other time that isn't right now.

Never not use contracts.


Exception are alts. In which case you are trading with yourself. I suppose you could scam yourself, but that would be kind of...well, you have bigger problems in that case. P

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#28 - 2013-12-12 23:59:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
Scammers scamming scammers while also scamming their own alts.

Now you're thinking with Jita!
Endovior
PFU Consortium
#29 - 2013-12-13 01:17:53 UTC
Rekk Tsero wrote:
Endovior wrote:
Rekk Tsero wrote:
So nobody can know before buying a plex, if it was paid with real money, or ISK ?. So in either way it will be an improvment to all players getting an additional warning or something else.

Okay...that will be no improvment to the scammer...but the whole players don't want those...or i'm getting wrong?


Actually, no; all PLEX are bought using real money. The fact that some (large) portion of those PLEX are sold on the market is a different matter, but it's not like PLEX are seeded on the market for NPCs to sell. Every PLEX in existence was once bought from CCP with real money, whether directly or through a reseller, and once it became an in-game item, it may be bought and sold a number of times before it eventually gets turned into gametime.


That being said... yeah, scams can hurt. There are safer and more dangerous ways of selling valuable items. You happened to use a particularly unsafe way, since a direct trade is completely unsecured; either side can change their offer at any time. The 'check box' thing isn't much in the way of security, because it's not meant to be; all it means is that the other guy's happy about things. I might support, say, making the trade box visibly blink or something whenever the offer is changed, but that'd be about it.

As is, I like having direct trades without extra fees and rails and guidelines and boxes to click. I mostly use them to exchange goods between alts, since it's fast, easy, and saves me a bit of ISK. If you want to have more security in your trading, use contracts, or the market; either are secured by the SCC, which gives you those extra options to protect yourself (if you're clever enough to read carefully and make use of them)


Please read my post before. Thank you.


Ahem.

Rekk Tsero wrote:
You want to sell your car. I want your car (really, give it to me!).
We will set up a contract about this car. I'll get your car. You will get 20.000$ (it's a real nice used car!)

And now this happens:
You are signing the contract. And while you are doing so, i change the contract and set that 20.000$ to 20$.

Oh...you have signed the contract? Very nice...now you can get that twenty dollars and now give me my car.
Not fair?

If you're finding that this is way not fair..you will find out that this is the same issue with the trading window.
But in real life, you will not sign this contract anymore...in EVE you are the donkey now.


To reiterate my point, using more specific language, since you seem to have missed it: direct trading is not a contract. Direct trading is more like waving your car keys in the air and shouting to passers-by on the street that you want to sell it, then taking a handful of bills from a random stranger without counting them and giving him your keys. Sure, it's entirely possible that you might, in fact, get the actual price of your car from the guy, but it's also possible that he'll rip you off; direct trading is more often used to give stuff away after all. Please read what I posted about the different advantages of contracts and direct trades (one is more secure, the other is more convenient), and be more careful in the future.
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#30 - 2013-12-13 03:41:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Zan Shiro
trade window is eve's form of natural selection. That people still fall for this shows its needed.


Plex (or any other item) for a good price you can sell order and it will move.


YOu can also contract it.


Don't like the taxes and fees...add them to item price on the sale order/contract. When I want 1 billion net, item price is 1 billion + surcharges and taxes on the item in the deal. That way when the deal is done I have the 1 bil I wanted.


This is eve trading and manufacturing 101.....put the charges on the customer. If a nice guy eating the taxes and fees....that is your profit you are hurting. Thats on the seller not game mechanics.

train contract/sales skills for more contract/sales abilities. If skills maxed leave a few slots open for buffer. Or....take 1 of the 2 other slots on the account and make a trade alt. In less than a day you can have moar contract slots and sales options. Hardest part is speed clicking past the intro crap to jsut get thier ass to to the trade hub of your choice.
NaK'Lin
Seamen Force
#31 - 2013-12-13 04:27:32 UTC
Kaerakh wrote:
There's really no way to tell if a trade was legitimate after it has already been made. You can make an argument based on hearsay and suspicion, but in the end it still could have been a legitimate trade.

IE I could buy a Scorpion for 50 mill and conducted the negotiations over a third party voice client. Then later I see a Scorpion being sold for 40 million and I go to CCP and say, "I've been scammed! This guy sold it to me for the wrong price!" Clearly I'm lying, but how would CCP determine that? This is the reverse of your situation, but it's still equally applicable and valid.

Nobody is trying to report others and get them Banned. Trying to get the UI "feature" named "trade window" fixed.

Zan Shiro wrote:
trade window is eve's form of natural selection. That people still fall for this shows its needed.


Plex (or any other item) for a good price you can sell order and it will move.


YOu can also contract it.


Don't like the taxes and fees...add them to item price on the sale order/contract. When I want 1 billion net, item price is 1 billion + surcharges and taxes on the item in the deal. That way when the deal is done I have the 1 bil I wanted.


This is eve trading and manufacturing 101.....put the charges on the customer. If a nice guy eating the taxes and fees....that is your profit you are hurting. Thats on the seller not game mechanics.

train contract/sales skills for more contract/sales abilities. If skills maxed leave a few slots open for buffer. Or....take 1 of the 2 other slots on the account and make a trade alt. In less than a day you can have moar contract slots and sales options. Hardest part is speed clicking past the intro crap to jsut get thier ass to to the trade hub of your choice.

Natural Selection would also dictate people not flying through Rancer over the past 6 years. Should they all biomass as well??
Even yourself are suggesting to NOT USE it for its intended purpose. That makes this feature broken.
EvE has ten thousand things to fix, sure, but it doesn't make this one being excluded from that list. That is all OP wanted to point out, and rightly so.
The whole discussion,, especially in F&I forums is not "haha, you were dumb for using it"; that's what C&P is for.
Over here we should discuss if the aforementioned Game Mechanic is broken, needs fixing, and what proposals for fixing could be offered to CCP, from the playerbase.

and it IS BROKEN.

(Don't use your car's brake. It won't brake, it'll instead randomly smash you into the wall. But because everybody should know that, its' like public domain knowledge, and because cars have a Emergency hand-brake, you that one instead and just don't use the normal brakes. Nothing to fix here.)
Mag's
Azn Empire
#32 - 2013-12-13 10:27:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
I have to agree with NaK'Lin here. While all other scams have the capacity to be spotted, this scam works simply on lag and timing.

I do not normally agree with calls for changes to scamming. In fact I was against the recent call for changes to the Margin traders system and feel the Dev in that instance was ill informed. But in this regard I do feel a change is long over due. Although I have to be honest when I say I actually thought this had been fixed.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Rekk Tsero
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#33 - 2013-12-13 18:52:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Rekk Tsero
Mag's wrote:
I have to agree with NaK'Lin here. While all other scams have the capacity to be spotted, this scam works simply on lag and timing.

I do not normally agree with calls for changes to scamming. In fact I was against the recent call for changes to the Margin traders system and feel the Dev in that instance was ill informed. But in this regard I do feel a change is long over due. Although I have to be honest when I say I actually thought this had been fixed.


+1

This is the core information.
That trading window is broken. This is not a standard scam (contracts for example).

I've wrote this many many times in this thread. The issue is that it is impossible to react on this kind of scam.
This scam depends on lag and timing (like Mag's description).

And a rookie do not have any chance against this kind of scam. Never.
It is nice to know that the experienced players knows that issue.

But why so many of you are accepting such a bug? Must be so nice to be get fooled.

And this is not a kind of time-consuming programmers work. This little fix could be done in maximally one or two days (i'm a programmer, so i can rate this).
Pew Terror
All of it
#34 - 2013-12-13 19:26:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Pew Terror
Rekk Tsero wrote:

And this is not a kind of time-consuming programmers work. This little fix could be done in maximally one or two days (i'm a programmer, so i can rate this).


Lol, you obviously know nothing about programming professional software...
http://blogs.msdn.com/b/ericlippert/archive/2003/10/28/53298.aspx
Rekk Tsero
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#35 - 2013-12-13 19:34:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Rekk Tsero
Pew Terror wrote:
Rekk Tsero wrote:

And this is not a kind of time-consuming programmers work. This little fix could be done in maximally one or two days (i'm a programmer, so i can rate this).


Lol, you obviously know nothing about programming professional software...
http://blogs.msdn.com/b/ericlippert/archive/2003/10/28/53298.aspx


For what? To integrate a pop up dialogue window (with links from databases?) uhhhh...so very hard to program.
And please go away with this msdn site. Microsoft programming....very professional. Please go further..there is nothing for you to see.
(And it's off topic, too!)
Pew Terror
All of it
#36 - 2013-12-13 19:44:50 UTC
Rekk Tsero wrote:
Pew Terror wrote:
Rekk Tsero wrote:

And this is not a kind of time-consuming programmers work. This little fix could be done in maximally one or two days (i'm a programmer, so i can rate this).


Lol, you obviously know nothing about programming professional software...
http://blogs.msdn.com/b/ericlippert/archive/2003/10/28/53298.aspx


For what? To integrate a pop up dialogue window (with links from databases?) uhhhh...so very hard to program.
And please go away with this msdn site. Microsoft programming....very professional. Please go further..there is nothing for you to see.
(And it's off topic, too!)


That is the procedure that nearly every software at the scale of EvE will have to go through for even minor changes (and Microsoft is one of the most professional shops in the world, no matter if you like their products or not). All I am saying is that you shouldn't try to enlighten people when you obviously have no experience. You are emberassing yourself with half knowledge trying to be smart.
Go work on your hobbyist database skin (aka website) again and quit talking about enterprise level software developing.
Rekk Tsero
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#37 - 2013-12-13 20:00:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Rekk Tsero
Pew Terror wrote:
Rekk Tsero wrote:
Pew Terror wrote:
Rekk Tsero wrote:

And this is not a kind of time-consuming programmers work. This little fix could be done in maximally one or two days (i'm a programmer, so i can rate this).


Lol, you obviously know nothing about programming professional software...
http://blogs.msdn.com/b/ericlippert/archive/2003/10/28/53298.aspx


For what? To integrate a pop up dialogue window (with links from databases?) uhhhh...so very hard to program.
And please go away with this msdn site. Microsoft programming....very professional. Please go further..there is nothing for you to see.
(And it's off topic, too!)


That is the procedure that nearly every software at the scale of EvE will have to go through for even minor changes (and Microsoft is one of the most professional shops in the world, no matter if you like their products or not). All I am saying is that you shouldn't try to enlighten people when you obviously have no experience. You are emberassing yourself with half knowledge trying to be smart.
Go work on your hobbyist database skin (aka website) again and quit talking about enterprise level software developing.


You should leave with your false pretences. You do not know anything about me or my work. And if you do not have any constructive arguments for the topic theme, so you better keep your nose clean.

I wrote that such an improvement do not take so much time (to program!). Quality management is a completely different issue.

Perhaps i'm getting wrong and you're the know-it-all. And you knows all about me. So i'm very sorry!

And now: Back to topic, please!
Silvetica Dian
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#38 - 2013-12-13 20:43:31 UTC
NaK'Lin wrote:
Kaerakh wrote:
There's really no way to tell if a trade was legitimate after it has already been made. You can make an argument based on hearsay and suspicion, but in the end it still could have been a legitimate trade.

IE I could buy a Scorpion for 50 mill and conducted the negotiations over a third party voice client. Then later I see a Scorpion being sold for 40 million and I go to CCP and say, "I've been scammed! This guy sold it to me for the wrong price!" Clearly I'm lying, but how would CCP determine that? This is the reverse of your situation, but it's still equally applicable and valid.

Nobody is trying to report others and get them Banned. Trying to get the UI "feature" named "trade window" fixed.

Zan Shiro wrote:
trade window is eve's form of natural selection. That people still fall for this shows its needed.


Plex (or any other item) for a good price you can sell order and it will move.


YOu can also contract it.


Don't like the taxes and fees...add them to item price on the sale order/contract. When I want 1 billion net, item price is 1 billion + surcharges and taxes on the item in the deal. That way when the deal is done I have the 1 bil I wanted.


This is eve trading and manufacturing 101.....put the charges on the customer. If a nice guy eating the taxes and fees....that is your profit you are hurting. Thats on the seller not game mechanics.

train contract/sales skills for more contract/sales abilities. If skills maxed leave a few slots open for buffer. Or....take 1 of the 2 other slots on the account and make a trade alt. In less than a day you can have moar contract slots and sales options. Hardest part is speed clicking past the intro crap to jsut get thier ass to to the trade hub of your choice.

Natural Selection would also dictate people not flying through Rancer over the past 6 years. Should they all biomass as well??
Even yourself are suggesting to NOT USE it for its intended purpose. That makes this feature broken.
EvE has ten thousand things to fix, sure, but it doesn't make this one being excluded from that list. That is all OP wanted to point out, and rightly so.
The whole discussion,, especially in F&I forums is not "haha, you were dumb for using it"; that's what C&P is for.
Over here we should discuss if the aforementioned Game Mechanic is broken, needs fixing, and what proposals for fixing could be offered to CCP, from the playerbase.

and it IS BROKEN.

(Don't use your car's brake. It won't brake, it'll instead randomly smash you into the wall. But because everybody should know that, its' like public domain knowledge, and because cars have a Emergency hand-brake, you that one instead and just don't use the normal brakes. Nothing to fix here.)


2 selling systems are safe and have taxes. one is not safe and has no taxes.
the not safe one is used for alts, gifts and scams.
making it safe with no taxes is broken. it works fine now

Money at its root is a form of rationing. When the richest 85 people have as much wealth as the poorest 3.5 billion (50% of humanity) it is clear where the source of poverty is. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/20/trickle-down-economics-broken-promise-richest-85
Rekk Tsero
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#39 - 2013-12-13 21:13:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Rekk Tsero
Silvetica Dian wrote:
NaK'Lin wrote:
Kaerakh wrote:
There's really no way to tell if a trade was legitimate after it has already been made. You can make an argument based on hearsay and suspicion, but in the end it still could have been a legitimate trade.

IE I could buy a Scorpion for 50 mill and conducted the negotiations over a third party voice client. Then later I see a Scorpion being sold for 40 million and I go to CCP and say, "I've been scammed! This guy sold it to me for the wrong price!" Clearly I'm lying, but how would CCP determine that? This is the reverse of your situation, but it's still equally applicable and valid.

Nobody is trying to report others and get them Banned. Trying to get the UI "feature" named "trade window" fixed.

Zan Shiro wrote:
trade window is eve's form of natural selection. That people still fall for this shows its needed.


Plex (or any other item) for a good price you can sell order and it will move.


YOu can also contract it.


Don't like the taxes and fees...add them to item price on the sale order/contract. When I want 1 billion net, item price is 1 billion + surcharges and taxes on the item in the deal. That way when the deal is done I have the 1 bil I wanted.


This is eve trading and manufacturing 101.....put the charges on the customer. If a nice guy eating the taxes and fees....that is your profit you are hurting. Thats on the seller not game mechanics.

train contract/sales skills for more contract/sales abilities. If skills maxed leave a few slots open for buffer. Or....take 1 of the 2 other slots on the account and make a trade alt. In less than a day you can have moar contract slots and sales options. Hardest part is speed clicking past the intro crap to jsut get thier ass to to the trade hub of your choice.

Natural Selection would also dictate people not flying through Rancer over the past 6 years. Should they all biomass as well??
Even yourself are suggesting to NOT USE it for its intended purpose. That makes this feature broken.
EvE has ten thousand things to fix, sure, but it doesn't make this one being excluded from that list. That is all OP wanted to point out, and rightly so.
The whole discussion,, especially in F&I forums is not "haha, you were dumb for using it"; that's what C&P is for.
Over here we should discuss if the aforementioned Game Mechanic is broken, needs fixing, and what proposals for fixing could be offered to CCP, from the playerbase.

and it IS BROKEN.

(Don't use your car's brake. It won't brake, it'll instead randomly smash you into the wall. But because everybody should know that, its' like public domain knowledge, and because cars have a Emergency hand-brake, you that one instead and just don't use the normal brakes. Nothing to fix here.)


2 selling systems are safe and have taxes. one is not safe and has no taxes.
the not safe one is used for alts, gifts and scams.
making it safe with no taxes is broken. it works fine now


Yeah... it's not a bug.. it's a feature! (sorry, that was appropriate to the occasion).
And yes...it has no taxes (for gifts and alts). That it is intentional for scammers is totally fabricated (in my honest opinion).

And scamming which depends on LAG and TIMING can never be intentionally.
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#40 - 2013-12-13 22:01:07 UTC
I have removed a rule breaking post.

The rules:
[i]14. Bumping outside the EVE Marketplace and Alliance & Corporation Recruitment channels is prohibited.

The bumping of posts to alter the order of the thread listing on a forum is prohibited outside the EVE Marketplace and Alliance & Corporation Recruitment forum channels. Within the EVE Marketplace section of the forums, each forum category has its own rules regarding acceptable bumping for sales threads clearly listed in the stickies.

Having said that , I noticed people claiming Direct Trade is only used by scammers. That is not entirely true.
It is for example quite commonly used a quick, easy and free-of-cost way to swap (low value) items between alts, corp/fleetmembers etc.
However, if you have even the slightest hint of doubt about the trustworthiness of the one you want to trade with, use the contract system instead.

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)