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Logic dictates EVE is a pay to win game. This makes it unappealing. Solutions.

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Silent Rambo
Orion Positronics
#81 - 2013-12-12 22:56:34 UTC
Onictus wrote:

I don't pay for any of my accounts unless I'm out of game or just being lazy....and I have four active.....I can basically plex an account every two days with like 2-3 hours of mission running, and an alt with like 16mil SP.


2/3 hours of mission running = 600mil isk payoff. Where da f---- you doing these missions?

You really think someone would do that? Just log into EvE and tell lies?
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#82 - 2013-12-12 23:33:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Cygnet Lythanea
Hmm.... The sad part is that I don;t have to even read the thread to know what sort of heavy mental gymnastics are going on to deny that plex sales impact game play, making eve defacto p2w. I've heard most of them already.

"PLEX Does NOTHING on it;s own!' Yeah, neither does a jump freighter full of morphite But sell it's ass someplace there's heavy market demand and now you're cooking.

"Isk is irrelevant for PvP" Yeah, so when my hired mercs and I gank you in my carrier full of officer fittings, it's not my bank balance in game spanking you.

"Plex and isk just move resources around' Yes, and buying plex and selling it means you're spending real world money to move in game resources from other people to you.

"Having all the isk you want doesn't mean you have any skill or the SP to fly the ships." True, but US Grant didn't exactly have skill either. He simply calculated that he could lose X as long as he cost Lee Y and still win the war. Having deep pockets means you can much more readily absorb losses than your opponents.



Silent Rambo wrote:

2/3 hours of mission running = 600mil isk payoff. Where da f---- you doing these missions?


Probably level 4 SoE missions or blitzing lvl 5s.
Halcyon Harvey
Doomheim
#83 - 2013-12-12 23:37:57 UTC
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
"Isk is irrelevant for PvP" Yeah, so when my hired mercs and I gank you in my carrier full of officer fittings, it's not my bank balance in game spanking you.

Yeah... because this happens all the time and to the smartest people. Roll

Forsaken (An EVE Thing)
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#84 - 2013-12-12 23:40:58 UTC
Fabulous Rod wrote:
Fact: Unlike other pvp mmorpgs, EVE's controls are simple enough and required interactions are low enough that simultaneously controlling multiple accounts is very easy to do.
.


For PvE, sure.

Who cares?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Toriessian
Helion Production Labs
Independent Operators Consortium
#85 - 2013-12-12 23:56:26 UTC
Fabulous Rod wrote:

If you want to talk about what is exclusive. Exclusive is often the spoiled brat with 500$ allowance who buys 5 account through channels are that OFFICIALLY endorsed and is flying a fleet of carriers his first day in EVE on his 10 computers. Day 1 he is flying it because of cash. He comes here everyday and tell us how it is the smarter player who wins in EVE. Excluded from doing all that is the guy who often has to work for a living, has a familiy to feed and can't afford to buy multiple computers, accounts and isk, regardless of the extra time required to farm for PLEX for multiple accounts to be competitive with the spoilt brat. Day one, they encounter each other and fight 1 on 1. Can you guess what happens? The guy who paid money wins. He paid to win. It is not that difficult a concept to understand.


ummm.... just in case... is this is an example or an actual ingame situation? If in game... do you have names? Twisted

Every day I'm wafflin!
Anslo
Scope Works
#86 - 2013-12-13 00:08:46 UTC
Richy Rich can have 6 accounts at once with officer fit faction ships for all I care. If he doesn't know how to use them, let alone all at the same time, his money means nothing. Especially when jammed, damped, neuted, etc. Go ahead and buy it all Rich. I need padding.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#87 - 2013-12-13 00:19:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
Hmm.... The sad part is that I don;t have to even read the thread to know what sort of heavy mental gymnastics are going on to deny that plex sales impact game play, making eve defacto p2w.
It doesn't require any mental gymnastics, only the realisation that PLEX can't buy you anything that can't be (trivially) had through other means, thereby defeating any pretence of P2W. It's not that it has no impact; it's that its impact is universally available whether you pay for it or not.

Again, if paying and not paying yields the same result — if paying does not generate any kind of “win” — how can it be pay-to-win?

Quote:
"Isk is irrelevant for PvP" Yeah, so when my hired mercs and I gank you in my carrier full of officer fittings, it's not my bank balance in game spanking you.
No, it's your (very limited) supply of ISK — a supply that can be had with ease without any banks being involved.
Halcyon Harvey
Doomheim
#88 - 2013-12-13 00:39:50 UTC
Fabulous Rod wrote:

If you want to talk about what is exclusive. Exclusive is often the spoiled brat with 500$ allowance who buys 5 account through channels are that OFFICIALLY endorsed and is flying a fleet of carriers his first day in EVE on his 10 computers. Day 1 he is flying it because of cash. He comes here everyday and tell us how it is the smarter player who wins in EVE. Excluded from doing all that is the guy who often has to work for a living, has a familiy to feed and can't afford to buy multiple computers, accounts and isk, regardless of the extra time required to farm for PLEX for multiple accounts to be competitive with the spoilt brat. Day one, they encounter each other and fight 1 on 1. Can you guess what happens? The guy who paid money wins. He paid to win. It is not that difficult a concept to understand.

5 accounts. 10 computers...

PLEX...

Cash = skill... poor people are stupid enough to...

AAAARGH... my brain is full of ****!

Toriessian wrote:
ummm.... just in case... is this is an example or an actual ingame situation? If in game... do you have names? Twisted

Their names were Bad Example and Never Happened.

They both have terrible killboards. Nothing interesting to see there.

Forsaken (An EVE Thing)
Kiryen O'Bannon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#89 - 2013-12-13 00:46:35 UTC
It takes a truly warped sense of charity to complain that people making $1 an hr or day are relevant at all to the question of multiple accounts. I seem to recall a campaign in EVE to contribute to the Red Cross for disaster relief... hmmm... Nah, the real problem is imaginary spoiled rich people that somehow use 4 computers at once.

Eternal Father, King of birth, /Who didst create the heaven and earth, /And bid the planets and the sun/ Their own appointed orbits run; /O hear us when we seek thy grace /For those who soar through outer space.
IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome
#90 - 2013-12-13 00:57:09 UTC
Fabulous Rod wrote:
Fact: Unlike other pvp mmorpgs, EVE's controls are simple enough and required interactions are low enough that simultaneously controlling multiple accounts is very easy to do.


This creates an environment where multiple accounts are highly preferable to gain an edge over an opponent. The advantage of more accounts is compounded exponentially by the hard counters that are possible in pvp, such as E-war, Neut/Nos, RR etc.

In other mmorpgs, players are forced to group up and cooperate to achieve their goals because it is nearly impossible for them to play more than one or two accounts simultaneously and efficiently. In EVE, you don't need to find another buddy to fill that tackler role or neut role for you because you can just easily, or even more easily, use one of your alts to fulfill the role perfectly.



Conclusion: some spoiled rich kid with 500$ a week allowance gets to dominate you in EVE 1v1 until you get competitive with your wallet.

Many intelligent people understand this about EVE and stay away.


Solution: Require more input from the user. For example, requiring some degree of aiming or charge bars with timing requirements in combat would go a long way to improving the reputation and game play of EVE.



I have some breaking news for you.

This is an MMO. You should find people to fly with.
If someone has 2 accounts and your welfare payments only allow you one then find someone to fly with.

A dual boxer can not fight as well as 2 individual pilots so the only reason you are bad at eve is because you are bad at eve.

https://soundcloud.com/ibanezlaney
Halcyon Harvey
Doomheim
#91 - 2013-12-13 01:09:03 UTC
IbanezLaney wrote:
so the only reason you are bad at eve is because you are bad at eve.

I am so bored waiting for a character transfer to complete...

I bought the character with my $500 allowance btw...

But thank you for making my decision to waste time in threads a good one.

Forsaken (An EVE Thing)
Xavier Higdon
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#92 - 2013-12-13 01:56:02 UTC
Wanna see what having real life wealth gets you in EvE? Check out my epic killboard. Obviously my success in real life has made me a winner of EvE Online.
Foodpimp
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#93 - 2013-12-13 02:11:30 UTC
I love these emo whine threads.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#94 - 2013-12-13 02:17:09 UTC
IbanezLaney wrote:
the only reason you are bad at eve is because you are bad at eve.

ooo snap

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Dorian Wylde
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#95 - 2013-12-13 02:20:30 UTC
Fabulous Rod wrote:
1. Fact: Unlike other pvp mmorpgs, EVE's controls are simple enough and required interactions are low enough that simultaneously controlling multiple accounts is very easy to do.


This creates an environment where multiple accounts are highly preferable to gain an edge over an opponent. The advantage of more accounts is compounded exponentially by the hard counters that are possible in pvp, such as E-war, Neut/Nos, RR etc.

2. In other mmorpgs, players are forced to group up and cooperate to achieve their goals because it is nearly impossible for them to play more than one or two accounts simultaneously and efficiently. In EVE, you don't need to find another buddy to fill that tackler role or neut role for you because you can just easily, or even more easily, use one of your alts to fulfill the role perfectly.



3. Conclusion: some spoiled rich kid with 500$ a week allowance gets to dominate you in EVE 1v1 until you get competitive with your wallet.

4. Many intelligent people understand this about EVE and stay away.


5. Solution: Require more input from the user. For example, requiring some degree of aiming or charge bars with timing requirements in combat would go a long way to improving the reputation and game play of EVE.


1. This is an opinion, and is wrong. If all you're doing is setting an orbit and turning your modules on, you're gonna be giving out a lot of killmails.

2. Plenty of games, even newer MMOs where you're hitting buttons constantly, people multi-box entire parties. This premise is flawed, therefore your argument is not sound.

3. You assume that one person behind the keyboard makes you one player. 1 person controlling 5 accounts fighting 1 person controlling 1 account is 5v1, not 1v1. This is the same whinefest in other games where people complain that a multiboxer oneshots them, and it's not fair because they do 5 times the damage as a normal player.

4. Many intelligent people understand that multiple characters vs 1 character is always going to favor the numbers, this is basic combat strategy. The amount of meatsacks behind the keyboard(s) does not matter in the slightest.

5. Gutting and remaking the entire game is not a solution. Go play something else if EVE is too hard for you. We won't miss you. Just stop cluttering the forums with pathetic whining about things you don't understand.
Vytone
Ganja Labs
Exodus.
#96 - 2013-12-13 02:32:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Vytone
Did I really just read this entire thread? Where do these people come from? Logic dictates I should stay off the forums.
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#97 - 2013-12-13 04:05:37 UTC
Here is the deal.

Real money creates Plex out of thin air.

Plex is a valued commodity.

Ergo, your money is creating value.

That value can be seen as an advantage as players who cannot create plex are at a disadvantage of those who do.

Which means those who do not create plex are trading their man hours for other people.

But that is how real life works.

Someone with money makes some poor sap work for him and pays him minimum wage (or less if they can get away with it).

Then these people have the gall to call it an equivalent exchange.

But anyways, the jokes on them... They are spending more money than me on internet space pixels so I' m not going to get hot and bothered than they can buy trillions worth of isk and bankroll entire alliances with their 401K pension.

Really, EVE is pay to win if you know what you are doing, but if I was going to spend thousands on a game, I'd rather buy actual stocks or go to vegas. Hell vegas has cheep alcohol and the ladies of the night.

So when these people do spend thousands on this game, I'm going to say... I'm glad I'm not as dumb as them. They can win this game.

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

Captain Tardbar's Voice Discord Server
Jessica Danikov
Network Danikov
#98 - 2013-12-13 06:32:26 UTC
EVE is a sandbox. It's only pay to win if you define winning as 'having the most sand' (and even then, having more sand than Chribba would be quite expensive indeed).
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#99 - 2013-12-13 07:00:46 UTC
Tippia wrote:
It doesn't require any mental gymnastics, only the realisation that PLEX can't buy you anything that can't be (trivially) had through other means...


Playing for three days and and being able to PLEX into a three year old character is hardly trivial.

But it's not P2W either. Just pay to bypass the training you'd otherwise have to spend years amassing.

Mr Epeen Cool
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#100 - 2013-12-13 07:06:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Batelle
Fabulous Rod wrote:

If you want to talk about what is exclusive. Exclusive is often the spoiled brat with 500$ allowance who buys 5 account through channels are that OFFICIALLY endorsed and is flying a fleet of carriers his first day in EVE on his 10 computers. Day 1 he is flying it because of cash. He comes here everyday and tell us how it is the smarter player who wins in EVE.


Is this the best you can do? come up with outrageous hypotheticals? Btw, doing what you described costs a hell of a lot more than $500. But in principle, sure, someone with money can buy accounts, buy isk, buy anything. Call it pay to win, but most people that play Eve don't have a problem with this, because we know that whoever did this is a complete scrub and still doesn't know anything about the game. His spent money is just more decoration for my killboard. But maybe he isn't a scrub, maybe he's a returning vet who had deleted/sold his accounts. He kicks in 1000 bucks and gets a few accounts, loads of isk and in-game assets. As long as he did it through legitimate means and not illicit RMT, I've got no problem with it.

And your idea for adding more twitch based elements to gameplay is dumb for plenty of reasons, among them being server ticks, and the fact that it wouldn't make the game any less p2w, which is apparently the problem you're trying to solve.

This fixation on the rich daddy's boy is starting to get a bit disturbing too. Guess your dad beat you or something.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.