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Logic dictates EVE is a pay to win game. This makes it unappealing. Solutions.

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Miilla
Hulkageddon Orphanage
#61 - 2013-12-12 20:41:48 UTC
Somebody else.. pays ... for me to win.

I don't care who it is, as long as they pay.
LUMINOUS SPIRIT
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#62 - 2013-12-12 20:42:46 UTC
Having alts is an essential part of the game, especially once you progress from empire.

EVE is not built around a single account/character, it is built around a team of 2, at a minimum.

You have to change your understanding of the game. There is no pay2win, the game is built around playing with several characters at once. Nothing wrong with that. There are games that let you play with 4 characters, like Dungeon Siege. Go and try to kill a boss with a single character in that game, see how far you get.

Smarten up, stop whining, and get your own alts. Not hard to do. And you dont have to pay for them because you can buy plex in jita every month for isk.

Or rely on friends.
Halcyon Harvey
Doomheim
#63 - 2013-12-12 20:51:18 UTC
Alright, I just have to say something here, because the premise of this thread is the dumbest thing I've read in a long time.

How does $ = PvP skill (understanding your target, understanding ranges and counters and loadouts, and so on)? How does $ = vast alliance coordination? How does $ = quality interpersonal relationships?

It doesn't. All money can do is buy you characters and ships and more ways to make money. People buy premade accounts in other MMOs all the damn time, and the bulk of those MMOs require a tiny fraction of what EVE requires in terms of teamwork in order to achieve larger and more complex goals. Just because you have ISK, doesn't mean your KB is going to be amazing, it doesn't guarantee your corporation or alliance won't fall to significantly more coordinated groups, and it doesn't even mean you'll excel at 1v1 with anyone who knows what they're doing (or what they're getting into). If anything, ISK and SP will make a total sucker out of you.

Becoming spacefamous... building something of substance that gives others good times... creating good social environments... all of these things can be achieved with a small amount of SP, but you can't be a lazy or whiny bastard about it. You have to know the game, grow some balls, talk to people, and build yourself a life here, regardless of how many SP or astromonies you have. And if you don't get that, you're a lost cause, and you probably shouldn't be playing this game.

Some things have changed in 10 years. Others haven't. And what hasn't changed is that someone will always find something hilariously inane to complain or troll others about.

TL;DR - HTFU

Forsaken (An EVE Thing)
LUMINOUS SPIRIT
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#64 - 2013-12-12 20:52:21 UTC
Fabulous Rod wrote:
Batelle wrote:


By the same token, you could say it is pretty low, because RL cash doesn't offer exclusive content.


More faulty thinking.

If you want to talk about what is exclusive. Exclusive is often the spoiled brat with 500$ allowance who buys 5 account through channels are that OFFICIALLY endorsed and is flying a fleet of carriers his first day in EVE on his 10 computers. Day 1 he is flying it because of cash. He comes here everyday and tell us how it is the smarter player who wins in EVE. Excluded from doing all that is the guy who often has to work for a living, has a familiy to feed and can't afford to buy multiple computers, accounts and isk, regardless of the extra time required to farm for PLEX for multiple accounts to be competitive with the spoilt brat. Day one, they encounter each other and fight 1 on 1. Can you guess what happens? The guy who paid money wins.

Regardless of teaching you the meaning of the word exclusive. Having or not having exclusive payed content is not the sole definition of pay 2 win, despite what defenders of pay 2 win games will tell you.


A noob with 10 carriers? Point me in his direction. Bad example because in this game there is no need for 10 carriers anywhere but largest fleet fights, and 'daddys 500$ boy' isnt getting anywhere near those without passing a lot of tests to get into those alliances. More likely is if he tried, he would simply be awoxed out of his carriers on day 1. But I digress.

PROtip: 10 accounts mean nothing, because at most you can effectively play with 2 at a time - more then that, and your combat effectiveness drops dramatically. You only have 2 hands and 1 brain. 10 accounts means he is using multiboxing software like isBoxer - and guess what, to use that effectively, his ships all have to be of same type - i.e. 10 navy omens, for example. And it is so very very simple to counter 10 ships of the same type being multiboxed... (ECM burst? traget breaker? sentry drones and kite? Unlimited number of counters exist).

Bottom line, 10 acounts is not an advantage where it matters, in combat. Worst case scenario, his 10-ship blob can only occupy 1 grid at a time, you can just warp somewhere else.
Fabulous Rod
Darkfall Corp
#65 - 2013-12-12 20:52:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Fabulous Rod
Try finding problems to my suggestions instead of trying to redefine p2w in your terms while ignoring the obvious.

What is wrong with adding some mechanics which require skillful interaction from the user? This would both decrease the power of multiboxing but make the game a lot more attractive for people who believe EVE PVP has low skill demand and requires too much investment to be competitive in.
Kw1jybo
Sunny Weather Mercenaries
The Initiative.
#66 - 2013-12-12 21:04:55 UTC
Fabulous Rod wrote:
Try finding problems to my suggestions instead of trying to redefine p2w in your terms while ignoring the obvious.

What is wrong with adding some mechanics which require skillful interaction from the user? This would both decrease the power of multiboxing but make the game a lot more attractive for people who believe EVE PVP has low skill demand and requires too much investment to be competitive in.

The thing that is wrong with this is it takes the game from what it is now and turns it into a 'tweakers' game, where those with the fastest reflexes wins.

Doesn't matter what you do, the game mechanics will favor person x over person y, and there is absolutely no way you can get around this.

It's the concept of equal opportunity in Eve that is compelling, but equal opportunity != equal outcome.
Rodrik Vikary
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#67 - 2013-12-12 21:05:40 UTC
Fabulous Rod wrote:
Try finding problems to my suggestions instead of trying to redefine p2w in your terms while ignoring the obvious.

What is wrong with adding some mechanics which require skillful interaction from the user? This would both decrease the power of multiboxing but make the game a lot more attractive for people who believe EVE PVP has low skill demand and requires too much investment to be competitive in.


Wait, you really think EVE has low skill demand for PVP? Well, if you think the right way to pvp is to click orbit and activate all modules and wait until one ship dies, then yes, I understand why you feel like EVE is easy and P2W.

I have been having a lot of fun on my 1 account 3 characters. And I will not add any more accounts because I really feel like multiboxing isn't necessary if you have the skills to play and friends to help you.
Fabulous Rod
Darkfall Corp
#68 - 2013-12-12 21:13:04 UTC
Miilla
Hulkageddon Orphanage
#69 - 2013-12-12 21:14:01 UTC
Fabulous Rod wrote:
LUMINOUS SPIRIT wrote:
at most you can effectively play with 2 at a time


tell that to these guys

http://www.slashgear.com/eve-multiboxing-rig-skirts-gaming-rules-with-complex-controllers-1281188/

http://achrontimeless.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/multibox-1024x768.jpg

http://vindicator.us/images/arc7pve.jpg



Skirts?

So the solution is to play wearing a skirt?
Halcyon Harvey
Doomheim
#70 - 2013-12-12 21:18:14 UTC
Fabulous Rod wrote:
tell that to these guys

http://www.slashgear.com/eve-multiboxing-rig-skirts-gaming-rules-with-complex-controllers-1281188/

http://achrontimeless.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/multibox-1024x768.jpg

http://vindicator.us/images/arc7pve.jpg

This level of commitment (by which I mean lack of a life), should be rewarded. I mean, think of all the time and money they could have spent on something... you know... productive.. but instead devoted to grinding internetspacepixels.

That **** is funny as hell.

Forsaken (An EVE Thing)
TharOkha
0asis Group
#71 - 2013-12-12 21:23:06 UTC  |  Edited by: TharOkha
Fabulous Rod wrote:


Conclusion: Daddy's boy rich kid with 500$ a week allowance gets to dominate you in EVE 1v1 until you get competitive with your wallet.

Many intelligent people understand this about EVE and stay away.


You know that you dont need to be rich in RL to have multiple accounts?. Just be successful in EVE and you'll have plenty of isk to PLEX your alt accounts.

oh and about that intelligence....

CODE. Venture hunt contest in a nutshell
LUMINOUS SPIRIT
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#72 - 2013-12-12 21:23:47 UTC
Fabulous Rod wrote:
LUMINOUS SPIRIT wrote:
at most you can effectively play with 2 at a time


tell that to these guys

http://www.slashgear.com/eve-multiboxing-rig-skirts-gaming-rules-with-complex-controllers-1281188/

http://achrontimeless.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/multibox-1024x768.jpg

http://vindicator.us/images/arc7pve.jpg



He is not combat-effective. Not in any kind of PvP except maybe unopposed tower sieges or coordinated high sec ganks. I will take his 10 multiboxed ships and pin em down long enough for my friends to arrive, simple enough to do.

You pointing to a screenshot of some dude with 10 screens does not mean he is effective by himself.

BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#73 - 2013-12-12 21:28:17 UTC
Alduin666 Shikkoken wrote:
I haven't spent a dollar on Eve for over a year now.
Just this last week we killed a 500 mil Demios with 15 frigs, I think you are playing Eve wrong.

Mind if I quote you on this? I'd love to see the kill board.

Founder of Violet Squadron, a small gang NPSI community! Mail me for more information.

BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie's Space Mediation Service!
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#74 - 2013-12-12 21:29:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Fabulous Rod wrote:
If you want to talk about what is exclusive. Exclusive is often the spoiled brat with 500$ allowance who buys 5 account through channels are that OFFICIALLY endorsed and is flying a fleet of carriers his first day in EVE on his 10 computers. Day 1 he is flying it because of
…ISK. Not cash. It's not particularly exclusive since cash isn't needed to do any of what you describe.

Quote:
Day one, they encounter each other and fight 1 on 1. Can you guess what happens?
Pretty much nothing. Largely because neither of them knows how to play the game. Quite likely, the guy who just paid a lot of cash fails to achieve anything and will then promptly lose all his carriers and large amounts of SP, so his money has — if anything — bought him a pretty spectacular failure.

Quote:
Having or not having exclusive payed content is not the sole definition of pay 2 win, despite what defenders of pay 2 win games will tell you.
No-one is really saying that, though. There are plenty of other definitions, and your main problem is that EVE doesn't particularly satisfy any of them so you have to create a completely new one to suit your purposes.

Quote:
Try finding problems to my suggestions instead of trying to redefine p2w in your terms while ignoring the obvious.
The problem with your suggestion is that you try to redefine P2W in your terms while ignoring the obvious, and that you've propose a supposed problem that you haven't really shown to be problematic, all to demonstrate the need for a pet solution that you want to see for… some reason or another.

So, you want the game to change in some direction and have a particular type of gameplay. That's nice. But you've back-formed all your suppositions about problems and game mechanics from there rather than show any genuine need for your changes. You come off as deeply dishonest about your intentions since you've taken this guilting and blaming approach to your proposal. Had you skipped all of that and just stated what kind of changes you wanted to see and why it would be a good gameplay change, you wouldn't be on defensive right now…
Galadriel Vasquez
Project Omega Industries
Fraternity.
#75 - 2013-12-12 21:31:28 UTC
I have 2 accounts . I pay real world cash because I choose to. I am sat on enough isk to buy plex for years. Am i a rich daddys boy though??????????

I have tin foil hat trained to 5.
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#76 - 2013-12-12 21:32:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Dersen Lowery
Fabulous Rod wrote:
Try finding problems to my suggestions instead of trying to redefine p2w in your terms while ignoring the obvious.


The industry definition of "pay to win" is a for-pay game mechanic that lets you win--Candy Crush being the modern exemplar. It's extended to mean especially effective in-game items that you can only buy with real money. EVE has neither.

Fabulous Rod wrote:
What is wrong with adding some mechanics which require skillful interaction from the user?


Do you even read?

Unless you're doing something especially grind-y, like structure bashing or ice mining, skillful interaction is in fact required, and there's a hard limit to the number of ships you can control at once--not imposed by the controls, but by the need for situational awareness.

One guy controlling ten carriers will die hilariously to ten guys controlling ten carriers. One guy controlling ten Hulks will die hilariously to two guys in disco Rokhs.

If you think EVE PVP requires little player interaction because you don't have to push buttons as quickly as you do raiding in WoW, then I have to conclude that you haven't done very much of it. Now, some activities don't require nearly as much attention, but you're still not paying to win if you multibox them.

As to your point about high-end PCs, well... yes. What do you propose to do about that, given that EVE is a computer game? It already has forgiving hardware requirements. But what you have, if you choose to use it, is the ability to make friends. If you have enough friends, you have something far more powerful than the most egregious multi-boxer's setup.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!
Halcyon Harvey
Doomheim
#77 - 2013-12-12 22:08:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Halcyon Harvey
Dersen Lowery wrote:
If you think EVE PVP requires little player interaction because you don't have to push buttons as quickly as you do raiding in WoW, then I have to conclude that you haven't done very much of it. Now, some activities don't require nearly as much attention, but you're still not paying to win if you multibox them.

I still fail to see what the OP is talking about with the multiboxing/rich boy thing.

So you have many accounts and characters.

...

And?

And you win EVE this way... how?

In case you haven't been paying attention (as I pointed out in my first post in this thread), SP and characters don't win EVE. Alliances win EVE. Epic conflicts that become part of the game's history win EVE. Good times win EVE. Credibility through knowledge and action wins EVE. Carebear tears and laughter win EVE.

A rich, friendless, multiboxing kid with 10 carrier accounts or a 100m+ SP PvP character he bought off the forums and doesn't know how to use properly is losing EVE. Big time.

Forsaken (An EVE Thing)
Paranoid Loyd
#78 - 2013-12-12 22:30:17 UTC
OP is Dwight SchruteLol

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!
Casanunda
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#79 - 2013-12-12 22:35:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Casanunda
The use of the word logic in the thread title is illogical. OP fails to present a logical conclusion to his ill thought out keyboard diahorrea.

The fact that I am not a gazillionaire Gallente aristocrat with the sexual capacity of a rutting rhino is a constant niggle.
Halcyon Harvey
Doomheim
#80 - 2013-12-12 22:50:07 UTC
Casanunda wrote:
keyboard diahorrea

Thank you for providing me with the name of my next multiboxing alt corp and the title of my next blog.

PS - I don't blog.

Forsaken (An EVE Thing)