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Logic dictates EVE is a pay to win game. This makes it unappealing. Solutions.

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Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#41 - 2013-12-12 19:25:46 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
How does one win eve?



By not logging in.

That is the common victory condition.
Da'iel Zehn
Evil Frosty's Premium Liqours and Fine Wines
#42 - 2013-12-12 19:28:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Da'iel Zehn
I don't think having alts is "pay 2 win." The logical argument is determined by your definition of win.

Winning EvE for me is logging in and having fun. I don't give one thought to who controls what ships, and I could care less if John Doe over there had 30 accounts or 1. If I have fun and accomplish my personal goals, that is all that matters. This is a sandbox. I win EvE everyday.

<--------- Winner

Edit: Oh yeah... also... EvE belongs to me. It's mine.
I Love Boobies
All Hail Boobies
#43 - 2013-12-12 19:28:43 UTC
Fabulous Rod wrote:
Fact: Unlike other pvp mmorpgs, EVE's controls are simple enough and required interactions are low enough that simultaneously controlling multiple accounts is very easy to do.


This creates an environment where multiple accounts are highly preferable to gain an edge over an opponent. The advantage of more accounts is compounded exponentially by the hard counters that are possible in pvp, such as E-war, Neut/Nos, RR etc.

In other mmorpgs, players are forced to group up and cooperate to achieve their goals because it is nearly impossible for them to play more than one or two accounts simultaneously and efficiently. In EVE, you don't need to find another buddy to fill that tackler role or neut role for you because you can just easily, or even more easily, use one of your alts to fulfill the role perfectly.



Conclusion: Daddy's boy rich kid with 500$ a week allowance gets to dominate you in EVE 1v1 until you get competitive with your wallet.

Many intelligent people understand this about EVE and stay away.


Solution: Require more input from the user. Requiring some degree of aiming or charge bars with timing requirements in combat would go a long way to improving the reputation and game play of EVE.



Dude, I am poor as f**k in real life, but I have 4 accounts going. Lol Once had 5. The real intelligent people should realize you don't need to spend real life money on Eve. I haven't spent a single cent on Eve in over 7 years. You're not so fabulous with your ideas Fabulous Rod.
Callic Veratar
#44 - 2013-12-12 19:44:47 UTC
Pay to win would be Aurora implants for $20. Paying money for specific things that give you an advantage. A multiboxer's accounts are no better than anyone else's accounts and, depending on player skill, could be a significant liability.
Fabulous Rod
Darkfall Corp
#45 - 2013-12-12 19:45:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Fabulous Rod
I Love Boobies wrote:
Fabulous Rod wrote:
Fact: Unlike other pvp mmorpgs, EVE's controls are simple enough and required interactions are low enough that simultaneously controlling multiple accounts is very easy to do.


This creates an environment where multiple accounts are highly preferable to gain an edge over an opponent. The advantage of more accounts is compounded exponentially by the hard counters that are possible in pvp, such as E-war, Neut/Nos, RR etc.

In other mmorpgs, players are forced to group up and cooperate to achieve their goals because it is nearly impossible for them to play more than one or two accounts simultaneously and efficiently. In EVE, you don't need to find another buddy to fill that tackler role or neut role for you because you can just easily, or even more easily, use one of your alts to fulfill the role perfectly.



Conclusion: Daddy's boy rich kid with 500$ a week allowance gets to dominate you in EVE 1v1 until you get competitive with your wallet.

Many intelligent people understand this about EVE and stay away.


Solution: Require more input from the user. Requiring some degree of aiming or charge bars with timing requirements in combat would go a long way to improving the reputation and game play of EVE.



Dude, I am poor as f**k in real life, but I have 4 accounts going. Lol Once had 5. The real intelligent people should realize you don't need to spend real life money on Eve. I haven't spent a single cent on Eve in over 7 years. You're not so fabulous with your ideas Fabulous Rod.


You don't just need 4 accounts, you also need the computers to run them. We are talking about multi-boxing here. You don't know what poor is until you have been to a country where the minimum wage is 1$ an hour. Many of these countries have import taxes which makes computers and cars prohibitively expensive to the average person. All of these things things help contribute to EVE's status as a p2w game and a game that many people simply cannot afford to be competitive in, given the relatively heavy investments required.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#46 - 2013-12-12 19:48:05 UTC
Fabulous Rod wrote:
All of these things contribute to EVE's status as a p2w game and a game many people simply cannot afford to be competitive in.
The only thing that contributes to that is a fundamental misunderstanding of either EVE and its economy, or of the concept of P2W.
Dont UseYourAlt OnTheForums
Doomheim
#47 - 2013-12-12 19:48:09 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
How does one win eve?


You dont win eve as a whole.

You win eve as in achievements, something that you wanna do, then you do it, thats win.


With $$$ you can do whatever you want in this game.


Goons? Theyll sell you their soul for $$$. Even if you have to pay them out of the game.


Scam me? What about it? What does that have anything to do with eve being pay to win?

EvE is 100% pay to win, and this goes beyond the regular forums dwellers little imagination.

Now keep talking..
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#48 - 2013-12-12 19:50:18 UTC
Dont UseYourAlt OnTheForums wrote:
With $$$ you can do whatever you want in this game.
…and without $$$ you can do exactly the same, which rather defeats any notion of P2W.
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#49 - 2013-12-12 19:55:09 UTC
Onictus wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
How does one win eve?



By not logging in.

That is the common victory condition.

Ah, It all makes sense now.

With more $$$ I can have more active accounts.
More accounts --> More accounts that don't log in --> More win for me.
Op was right!
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#50 - 2013-12-12 19:57:09 UTC
Oh, look, another whiny forever-alone player. SadSad

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Fabulous Rod
Darkfall Corp
#51 - 2013-12-12 20:05:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Fabulous Rod
Tippia wrote:
Dont UseYourAlt OnTheForums wrote:
With $$$ you can do whatever you want in this game.
…and without $$$ you can do exactly the same, which rather defeats any notion of P2W.


Those extremely narrow definitions you have are typical of those who try their hardest to claim their favorite p2w game is somehow not p2w at all. P2W is not so black and white as you want to believe, there are varying degrees, and a rational person could tell you that for EVE, it is pretty high.
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#52 - 2013-12-12 20:07:42 UTC
If somebody is going to grind the plex or pay the money for multiple accounts just to "beat you", then you can win by not even engaging them, especially on their terms when they want to.

This is not an arena game last I checked.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Da'iel Zehn
Evil Frosty's Premium Liqours and Fine Wines
#53 - 2013-12-12 20:09:16 UTC
Fabulous Rod wrote:
Those extremely narrow definitions you have are typical of those who try their hardest to claim their favorite game is somehow not p2w at all.


You obviously have a bias for some reason, are not open to logic, nor the sand box perspective. You look very much like a corpse I have laying around that I kick every time I walk by in my hanger.
Bambi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#54 - 2013-12-12 20:12:25 UTC
Fabulous Rod wrote:
Serptimis wrote:
Are you asking for the mechanics of the game to be changed so that multiboxing would no longer be possible? I can imagine that is something not really on CCP's list of things to do.
Can't imagine why.


Not that it wouldn't be impossible, just so that it wouldn't be so easy and effective to multibox. For instance, they could implement features where users are required to perform some degree of aiming or perhaps hit a perfect timing on a fluctuating bar in order to achieve maximum damage or hit chance, things to that effect. This would go a long way towards making the game more appealing, more skill demanding, and less pay 2 win.


Perfect timing, manual aiming, 700 man blob, good luck with that one.
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#55 - 2013-12-12 20:13:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Batelle
Fabulous Rod wrote:

You don't just need 4 accounts, you also need the computers to run them. We are talking about multi-boxing here. You don't know what poor is until you have been to a country where the minimum wage is 1$ an hour. Many of these countries have import taxes which makes computers and cars prohibitively expensive to the average person. All of these things things help contribute to EVE's status as a p2w game and a game that many people simply cannot afford to be competitive in, given the relatively heavy investments required.


This just in, computer games are unfair to people without computers. And MMOs are unfair to people without the internet.

Fabulous Rod wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Dont UseYourAlt OnTheForums wrote:
With $$$ you can do whatever you want in this game.
…and without $$$ you can do exactly the same, which rather defeats any notion of P2W.


Those extremely narrow definitions you have are typical of those who try their hardest to claim their favorite p2w game is somehow not p2w at all. P2W is not so black and white as you want to believe, there are varying degrees, and a rational person could tell you that for EVE, it is pretty high.


By the same token, you could say it is pretty low, because RL cash doesn't offer exclusive content.

Stop trolling and go away.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Rodrik Vikary
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#56 - 2013-12-12 20:16:33 UTC
I know an easy way of fixing that "problem". Get in a corp, and when you find someone multiboxing trying to get you, call in your corpmates and destroy all the other guy's ships. Yes, if you are rich, you can do that. But you can also do that if you learn a thing or two, play the game and earn your isk to plex for other accounts. Many players are in EVE without having to pay in RL money for a long time. In my opinion, there is nothing similar to pay to win in EVE.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#57 - 2013-12-12 20:19:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Fabulous Rod wrote:
Those extremely narrow definitions you have are
…neither extreme nor narrow, but rather reflect the common usage of the term. I understand that it annoys you that reality completely contradicts your flawed logic and baseless assertions, and that you got called out on your misuse of a pretty well-understood term, but your annoyance is not my problem and it does not make me wrong.

The fact remains: anything you can pay for in EVE can be had by not paying for it. If paying and not paying provides the same advantages (or, more accurately, fails to yield any particular advantage at all since it's all the same no matter what), then it's just not P2W. It fails already on the “pay to” part, and we haven't even touched on the ambiguities of “win” yet.

Quote:
P2W is not so black and white as you want to believe, there are varying degrees, and a rational person could tell you that for EVE, it is pretty high.
Not really, no. A rational person would look at how the game actually works; how the payments in question work; and how P2W normally works, and then realise that anyone who thinks that EVE is P2W has misunderstood either EVE or P2W.

I'll grant you that the term if sometimes thrown around by people who have a beef with EVE, but they are almost universally uninformed about the game (an ignorance that tends to also explain the beef in question).
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#58 - 2013-12-12 20:19:55 UTC
Fabulous Rod wrote:
You don't just need 4 accounts, you also need the computers to run them.


You also need the ability to run each account effectively. I make no claims to being a great, or even a good, or even an average PVPer, but I've done PVP on one character while being a scout on another. EVE is fundamentally different in that yes, there are fewer buttons to press--there's no "rhythm"--but you have to be aware of a much greater number of environmental variables: where is my ship? How's my transversal vs. the people who are shooting me? How's the transversal of the person I'm shooting relative to me, and am I in optimal (or near falloff) range? Are my guns on the right target? Are my drones on the right target? Are they being shot? How much tackle is on me, and are they points or scrams? Am I in range of logi? If I'm in a bubble, what's the fastest way out? Are there reinforcements coming on D-scan? If we're fighting on a wormhole, am I within jump range? Am I polarized?

That's one character. On the easier character, the scout, at minimum, I have to: watch D-scan, keep an accurate count of who's on grid, in what, from which corp, listen for wormhole activations (over the combat sounds from the other character), announce all of those things, and dodge periodic attempts to decloak her.

I've never even tried to control two characters in PVP. I can only imagine that the results would be significantly worse than my attempts to control one. P

No matter how much money I throw at the game, no matter how many blinged-out PCs I buy with my fat bankroll (heh), I only have one brain, two hands and two eyeballs. This places a hard limit on just how much of an advantage I can buy, whether with ISK or with US $.

The only time that one person can get themselves a more-or-less free advantage with wealth, in-game or not, is in the case of off-grid boosters--and CCP is hard at work finding ways to get rid of those.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#59 - 2013-12-12 20:28:44 UTC
Fabulous Rod wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Dont UseYourAlt OnTheForums wrote:
With $$$ you can do whatever you want in this game.
…and without $$$ you can do exactly the same, which rather defeats any notion of P2W.


Those extremely narrow definitions you have are typical of those who try their hardest to claim their favorite p2w game is somehow not p2w at all. P2W is not so black and white as you want to believe, there are varying degrees, and a rational person could tell you that for EVE, it is pretty high.


This is funny, because it seems pretty obvious that you're desperate to blame your failures on something other than your own inability.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Fabulous Rod
Darkfall Corp
#60 - 2013-12-12 20:40:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Fabulous Rod
Batelle wrote:


By the same token, you could say it is pretty low, because RL cash doesn't offer exclusive content.


More faulty thinking.

If you want to talk about what is exclusive. Exclusive is often the spoiled brat with 500$ allowance who buys 5 account through channels are that OFFICIALLY endorsed and is flying a fleet of carriers his first day in EVE on his 10 computers. Day 1 he is flying it because of cash. He comes here everyday and tell us how it is the smarter player who wins in EVE. Excluded from doing all that is the guy who often has to work for a living, has a familiy to feed and can't afford to buy multiple computers, accounts and isk, regardless of the extra time required to farm for PLEX for multiple accounts to be competitive with the spoilt brat. Day one, they encounter each other and fight 1 on 1. Can you guess what happens? The guy who paid money wins. He paid to win. It is not that difficult a concept to understand.

Regardless of teaching you the meaning of the word exclusive. Having or not having exclusive payed content is not the sole definition of pay 2 win, despite what defenders of pay 2 win games will tell you.

But this thread isn't about narrow minded definitions of p2w. It is about what can improve the game and make it more attractive.
Can none point out what is wrong with my suggestions to improve the game?