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RIP Fun PVE Vargur
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Nolak Ataru
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#141 - 2013-12-03 15:02:11 UTC
Seriously Bored wrote:
Sh0plifter wrote:
You have a bastion mode marauder and you are needing to get into range? Use ******* arties. Get T1 ammo with different ranges. PWN **** and GTFO.


Not to be abrasive, but you're just wasting a whole lot of ship like that. You don't need Bastion for the tank at artillery range, you're too far to loot and salvage at the same time, and artillery + MJD underperforms against AC + MWD when you look at mission run time and isk/hr.

There are some good arguments both for and against bastion mode. I haven't seen any good arguments for Arties on a Marauder.


Rubicon brought these nifty little modules called "Mobile Tractor Units" with ranges of 100km+. And as a AC boat you're always fighting in falloff. Thats the problem with ACs, no matter what boat you choose. Also MJD increases optimal and falloff, as well as boosting tank so you can drop a mod for another TC/TE.
Zor'katar
Matari Recreation
#142 - 2013-12-03 16:50:05 UTC
Nolak Ataru wrote:
Rubicon brought these nifty little modules called "Mobile Tractor Units" with ranges of 100km+. And as a AC boat you're always fighting in falloff. Thats the problem with ACs, no matter what boat you choose. Also MJD increases optimal and falloff, as well as boosting tank so you can drop a mod for another TC/TE.

  • You can only reasonably use one mobile tractor at once, which is a really slow way to do it (especially at range). If you're leaving them behind to return and clean up later that's fine, but for loot/salvage as you go, 3 tractors and a flight of salvage drones is going to keep up much better.
  • Yes, ACs are always fighting in falloff. But with ridiculous 70km+ falloffs, if you pick the right spot to set up you're still going to be applying at least as much DPS on average as best-case-scenario arties.
  • Even with a relatively tanky close range Bastion fit, you're already stacking so many range modules that the Bastion bonus is tiny and any more modules aren't going to help significantly.

There's certainly nothing wrong with using an arty Vargur if that's your thing. It'll work just fine. But ACs still feel like the stronger option to me. (I reserve the right to change my mind on a mission-by-mission basis, but haven't yet found one where I felt arties would work better.)
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#143 - 2013-12-04 00:54:01 UTC
Ghost Phius wrote:
ALL of you phucking EFT warriors need to turn it off and go into the game and play the GD game FFS.

What you will see is ALL of the Marauders rock now and are more than capable of doing ANY level 4 including the bonus room in Angel Ex. with ease.

Arguing over non consequential differences is silly...then again this is eve forums... Sorry carry on...Shocked


Issue there being with the changes to interceptors, you are suicidal to use a Marauder in null, there is no way for you to dodge the new ceptors.

Short of dropping an mobile and hoping that you can fit enough stabs to escape before it gets RF'd to save you.
Nolak Ataru
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#144 - 2013-12-04 01:26:08 UTC
Zor'katar wrote:
Nolak Ataru wrote:
Rubicon brought these nifty little modules called "Mobile Tractor Units" with ranges of 100km+. And as a AC boat you're always fighting in falloff. Thats the problem with ACs, no matter what boat you choose. Also MJD increases optimal and falloff, as well as boosting tank so you can drop a mod for another TC/TE.

  • You can only reasonably use one mobile tractor at once, which is a really slow way to do it (especially at range). If you're leaving them behind to return and clean up later that's fine, but for loot/salvage as you go, 3 tractors and a flight of salvage drones is going to keep up much better.
  • Yes, ACs are always fighting in falloff. But with ridiculous 70km+ falloffs, if you pick the right spot to set up you're still going to be applying at least as much DPS on average as best-case-scenario arties.
  • Even with a relatively tanky close range Bastion fit, you're already stacking so many range modules that the Bastion bonus is tiny and any more modules aren't going to help significantly.

There's certainly nothing wrong with using an arty Vargur if that's your thing. It'll work just fine. But ACs still feel like the stronger option to me. (I reserve the right to change my mind on a mission-by-mission basis, but haven't yet found one where I felt arties would work better.)


  • No argument about only one being usable at a time. But if you're using arties and not using one, you can't really complain. If you're using autos, then yeah, 3 tractors and a flight of salvages works wonders.
  • Due to a series of unfortunate events I have been unable to test my vargur with t2 autos yet, so I can't really say much about that. The reason I used arties to begin with was ammo usage and alpha.
  • Post in the Ideas forum to make the Bastion Module either be first in priority on stacking penalties, or to make the gun bonuses unstacked.

    • I use arties with range in nullsec to save on cap and ammo. Waiting on RF to ship me my 800s so I can give them a go.
    Seriously Bored
    Sebiestor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #145 - 2013-12-04 05:07:52 UTC
    Nolak Ataru wrote:

  • Post in the Ideas forum to make the Bastion Module either be first in priority on stacking penalties, or to make the gun bonuses unstacked.

    • Making the bonuses first in priority would actually reduce your range compared to now, if you use even one Tracking Computer... but I really like the idea of having the bastion module range bonuses being unpenalized. Pirate
    Nolak Ataru
    Hedion University
    Amarr Empire
    #146 - 2013-12-04 06:00:50 UTC
    Seriously Bored wrote:
    Nolak Ataru wrote:

  • Post in the Ideas forum to make the Bastion Module either be first in priority on stacking penalties, or to make the gun bonuses unstacked.

    • Making the bonuses first in priority would actually reduce your range compared to now, if you use even one Tracking Computer... but I really like the idea of having the bastion module range bonuses being unpenalized. Pirate


    go for it, and send me the link. At the very least, maybe we can test it out on SISI or something.
    Mer88
    Royal Amarr Institute
    Amarr Empire
    #147 - 2013-12-04 18:15:28 UTC
    i dont know why all the crying . i use ac vargur the other day it does angel blockade in under 20mins which is the same time as golem except you dont need to count volley . i did not even move just warp , bastion up and shoot.
    Julie Thorne
    Project Insanity
    #148 - 2013-12-04 19:09:55 UTC
    Mer88 wrote:
    i dont know why all the crying . i use ac vargur the other day it does angel blockade in under 20mins which is the same time as golem except you dont need to count volley . i did not even move just warp , bastion up and shoot.


    For your reference a good time for Angel Blockade is around 12 minutes (first shot to last shot, everything killed). You managed to prove that an immobile Vargur is an inefficient Vargur.
    Ghost Phius
    Tribal Liberation Force
    Minmatar Republic
    #149 - 2013-12-05 15:40:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Ghost Phius
    A ton of asstalking and just straight up bullshit in this thread for sure.
    Zor'katar
    Matari Recreation
    #150 - 2013-12-05 16:09:15 UTC
    Ghost Phius wrote:
    A ton of asstalking and just straight up bullshit in this thread for sure.

    Thank you for your contribution.
    Bastion Arzi
    Ministry of War
    Amarr Empire
    #151 - 2013-12-05 16:19:49 UTC
    Lol

    Vargur is an excellent ship, mjd bonus is awesome, bastion is awesome.

    Thumbs up to ccp
    Benjamin Bumsicle
    School of Applied Knowledge
    Caldari State
    #152 - 2013-12-06 16:20:05 UTC
    No issues in my Vargur. You're obviously doing it wrong.

    You need to calm down and ****, bro.

    WTB Vargur.

    Forum alt, please ignore.
    Izuru Hishido
    Imperial Academy
    Amarr Empire
    #153 - 2013-12-10 07:12:00 UTC
    Never had a problem with my vargurs. They do exactly what they're supposed to in spades. Bastion was just the icing on the cake, and to point out one crowning moment of stupid on OP's part, he's trying to hit the small mission frigates with large AC's. Not impossible, sure, but stupid nonetheless. You do have a drone bay on the vargur after all, so use your light drones. Vargur can trivially tank most level fours, and if you're chasing after targets in a level four, you've done something wrong. My suggestion is get some help with your terrible fit/terrible skills, or both. If you feel the need to complain about a beneficial change to a ship, you've done something horridly wrong. Stop what you're doing, take a good look, then ask for input and your efficiency will increase.

    Or you could learn basic game mechanics as well, but thinking is optional for most people.
    Kagura Nikon
    Native Freshfood
    Minmatar Republic
    #154 - 2013-12-10 10:07:17 UTC
    Zor'katar wrote:
    Nolak Ataru wrote:
    Rubicon brought these nifty little modules called "Mobile Tractor Units" with ranges of 100km+. And as a AC boat you're always fighting in falloff. Thats the problem with ACs, no matter what boat you choose. Also MJD increases optimal and falloff, as well as boosting tank so you can drop a mod for another TC/TE.

    • You can only reasonably use one mobile tractor at once, which is a really slow way to do it (especially at range). If you're leaving them behind to return and clean up later that's fine, but for loot/salvage as you go, 3 tractors and a flight of salvage drones is going to keep up much better.
    • Yes, ACs are always fighting in falloff. But with ridiculous 70km+ falloffs, if you pick the right spot to set up you're still going to be applying at least as much DPS on average as best-case-scenario arties.
    • Even with a relatively tanky close range Bastion fit, you're already stacking so many range modules that the Bastion bonus is tiny and any more modules aren't going to help significantly.

    There's certainly nothing wrong with using an arty Vargur if that's your thing. It'll work just fine. But ACs still feel like the stronger option to me. (I reserve the right to change my mind on a mission-by-mission basis, but haven't yet found one where I felt arties would work better.)



    even with 70 km falloff. Vargur is far far less effective than golem and paladin ( I do not have a kronos to comapre, have only the other 3). I only undock the vargur for a single misson now.. Buzz kill. Its the only one the vargur completes faster than the other 2. In the others, its WAY slower.


    Falloff is nOT range. at 70 km you are doign HORRIBLE DPS. If your falloff is 70 km, you should try to fight at 25 km to have a GOOD dps. Anythign further than that and you do less dps than a paladin does at 70 km and less than a golem does at 200 km

    "If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
    Akonnen
    Birds of Prey Inc.
    #155 - 2013-12-10 12:05:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Akonnen
    Golem and Paladin would smoke a Vargur shooting at BS at range of 50km +, most mission in Minmatar space have only a few BS and room filled with frigates and cruisers which the Vargur just smoke everything you can name, Vargur has higher scan resolution and much better tracking. Only mission i can think of that Vargur has problems is The Blockade, Angel Extravaganza, Massive Attack and The Assault since you have to move with mwd... We can switch to Barrage for higher range.

    On missions like Attack of the drones, intercept the Saboteur, Damsel, Vengeance or World Collide... to name a few, the Vargur will smoke anything due to proximity and target size. I'm talking Minmatar space here, would probably not do so well in other region. Not sure why you would want to fly a Vargur elsewhere tbh...
    Luwc
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #156 - 2013-12-10 13:32:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Luwc
    Quish McQuiddy wrote:

    Whats wrong with homogenisation? Why cant my Vagabond have 800 dps like my Ishtar? What is it that minmatar seem to have more or less the worst ships across the board


    Stopped reading when I saw this.
    OP obv. is a ******* ******.

    Why would a ship that can go 4k m/s heated while shield boosting any damage have 800+ dps ?

    Unless you want to use it for PVE which explains why you are such a butthurt carebear.

    Every ship has its up and downsides and minmatar ships are very good. Just a little hard to use so either Train Yoself' or get back to Caldari F1.

    http://hugelolcdn.com/i/267520.gif
    Kagura Nikon
    Native Freshfood
    Minmatar Republic
    #157 - 2013-12-10 13:42:56 UTC
    Akonnen wrote:
    Golem and Paladin would smoke a Vargur shooting at BS at range of 50km +, most mission in Minmatar space have only a few BS and room filled with frigates and cruisers which the Vargur just smoke everything you can name, Vargur has higher scan resolution and much better tracking. Only mission i can think of that Vargur has problems is The Blockade, Angel Extravaganza, Massive Attack and The Assault since you have to move with mwd... We can switch to Barrage for higher range.

    On missions like Attack of the drones, intercept the Saboteur, Damsel, Vengeance or World Collide... to name a few, the Vargur will smoke anything due to proximity and target size. I'm talking Minmatar space here, would probably not do so well in other region. Not sure why you would want to fly a Vargur elsewhere tbh...



    because the only agents worth running mission in empire are SOE agents.

    "If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
    LordBroz
    Red Nova.
    #158 - 2013-12-10 15:27:48 UTC
    Kagura Nikon wrote:
    Akonnen wrote:
    Golem and Paladin would smoke a Vargur shooting at BS at range of 50km +, most mission in Minmatar space have only a few BS and room filled with frigates and cruisers which the Vargur just smoke everything you can name, Vargur has higher scan resolution and much better tracking. Only mission i can think of that Vargur has problems is The Blockade, Angel Extravaganza, Massive Attack and The Assault since you have to move with mwd... We can switch to Barrage for higher range.

    On missions like Attack of the drones, intercept the Saboteur, Damsel, Vengeance or World Collide... to name a few, the Vargur will smoke anything due to proximity and target size. I'm talking Minmatar space here, would probably not do so well in other region. Not sure why you would want to fly a Vargur elsewhere tbh...



    because the only agents worth running mission in empire are SOE agents.


    There is a SOE agent L4 in Lanngisi, 2j from Hek.
    Zor'katar
    Matari Recreation
    #159 - 2013-12-10 22:07:26 UTC
    Kagura Nikon wrote:
    even with 70 km falloff. Vargur is far far less effective than golem and paladin ( I do not have a kronos to comapre, have only the other 3). I only undock the vargur for a single misson now.. Buzz kill. Its the only one the vargur completes faster than the other 2. In the others, its WAY slower.

    *shrug* I'll take your word for it. I'm only trained in Minmatar so far, so I couldn't really care less about the other ones. All I know is that Rubicon improved the Vargur for me.

    Kagura Nikon wrote:
    Falloff is nOT range. at 70 km you are doign HORRIBLE DPS. If your falloff is 70 km, you should try to fight at 25 km to have a GOOD dps. Anythign further than that and you do less dps than a paladin does at 70 km and less than a golem does at 200 km

    Huh? Falloff is not range? Of course it is. And no, no one's suggesting to run a 70km falloff ship with a 70km engagement range, so you can forget that strawman. But at 48km (edge of tractor range) on a reasonable Vargur fit, you still get around 70% of max DPS, which is nothing to sneeze at, especially since it only increases as things get closer (and you have lots of leeway there with the great tracking).
    Kagura Nikon
    Native Freshfood
    Minmatar Republic
    #160 - 2013-12-11 09:26:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Kagura Nikon
    Zor'katar wrote:
    Kagura Nikon wrote:
    even with 70 km falloff. Vargur is far far less effective than golem and paladin ( I do not have a kronos to comapre, have only the other 3). I only undock the vargur for a single misson now.. Buzz kill. Its the only one the vargur completes faster than the other 2. In the others, its WAY slower.

    *shrug* I'll take your word for it. I'm only trained in Minmatar so far, so I couldn't really care less about the other ones. All I know is that Rubicon improved the Vargur for me.

    Kagura Nikon wrote:
    Falloff is nOT range. at 70 km you are doign HORRIBLE DPS. If your falloff is 70 km, you should try to fight at 25 km to have a GOOD dps. Anythign further than that and you do less dps than a paladin does at 70 km and less than a golem does at 200 km

    Huh? Falloff is not range? Of course it is. And no, no one's suggesting to run a 70km falloff ship with a 70km engagement range, so you can forget that strawman. But at 48km (edge of tractor range) on a reasonable Vargur fit, you still get around 70% of max DPS, which is nothing to sneeze at, especially since it only increases as things get closer (and you have lots of leeway there with the great tracking).



    And at that range paladin and golem sit at 100% of their DPS. In fact at that range you will do less damage than a navy apoc and WAAAy less damage than a navy geddon.... Think can do same for a rail navy mega

    That is the problem, vargur is only good on missions where the rats throw themselves upon you.

    I had forgotten damsel in distress in my previous post. Its truth that that is another mission where the vargur is great. But any mission where you need to fire constantly over 40 km, you would be better on a lot of other ships.


    The ship is not bad, just inferior.

    "If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"