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Enough is Enough: Nerf Minmatar
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#421 - 2011-11-21 05:41:15 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Songbird wrote:
Can the "nerf minmatar" people state 1 more time for the record the exact nature of the nerfs they're fighting for?

Is it "nerf AC's since minmatar are shield tanked"? Or is it nerf the speed of minmatar ships since they're shield tanked? Is it nerf shield tanking since it has no penalties to speed?

What exactly is it that you're fighting for?


After 21 pages? Lol

Cut the falloff bonus on tracking enhancers to match the optimal bonus.

OR

Cut the falloff bonus on ships that have them from 10% to 5%.

The blaster damage and tracking buff on sissi is probably sufficient for me to give up on the 9% DPS bit in the OP. I don't feel like running up to a blaster frigate at point blank range in a claw or wolf and slapping a nuet on it is a smart strategy. And yes, it really was that bad.


So... you think the Hurricane is totally fine and you want to nerf shield blaster boats. Cool.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
ElCholo
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#422 - 2011-11-21 06:00:35 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:

Basic line of thought is that if you can disengage at will, you shouldn't be able to shoot as far as Minmatar currently can. And it really comes down to a few culpable ships. You forgot to mention the dramiel, cynabal, and Machariel. Cool


I don't think that he forgot to mention them. I think it's more along the lines that they aren't "Minmatar" ships. They are Angel faction ships that have insane falloff bonuses along with amazing speed and agility. You don't nerf an entire weapon system because of unbalanced ships. :P CCP knows this which is why the Dramiel is already getting nerfed this Winter.

Yes, yes, the nerfmatar whiners will still say "But they use ACs!". This still doesn't make AC's OP'd, nor does it make them Minmatar ships, no matter how they will try to spin in to support their side that Minmatar is OP.

Zarnak Wulf wrote:

Basic line of thought is that if you can disengage at will, you shouldn't be able to shoot as far as Minmatar currently can.


My issue with this train of thought is that if you make a race that is supposed to be able to disengage at will, then why take away the weapon system that allows them to use that? At the point to which you take away this weapon system, they can no longer fight in the ranges that allow them to disengage and are thus no longer used. They can keep range and do no damage, or get in range of their "then nerfed" guns and be outclassed by every other ship. IMHO that is bad logic.
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#423 - 2011-11-21 06:42:10 UTC
ElCholo wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:

Basic line of thought is that if you can disengage at will, you shouldn't be able to shoot as far as Minmatar currently can. And it really comes down to a few culpable ships. You forgot to mention the dramiel, cynabal, and Machariel. Cool


I don't think that he forgot to mention them. I think it's more along the lines that they aren't "Minmatar" ships. They are Angel faction ships that have insane falloff bonuses along with amazing speed and agility. You don't nerf an entire weapon system because of unbalanced ships. :P CCP knows this which is why the Dramiel is already getting nerfed this Winter.

Yes, yes, the nerfmatar whiners will still say "But they use ACs!". This still doesn't make AC's OP'd, nor does it make them Minmatar ships, no matter how they will try to spin in to support their side that Minmatar is OP.

Zarnak Wulf wrote:

Basic line of thought is that if you can disengage at will, you shouldn't be able to shoot as far as Minmatar currently can.


My issue with this train of thought is that if you make a race that is supposed to be able to disengage at will, then why take away the weapon system that allows them to use that? At the point to which you take away this weapon system, they can no longer fight in the ranges that allow them to disengage and are thus no longer used. They can keep range and do no damage, or get in range of their "then nerfed" guns and be outclassed by every other ship. IMHO that is bad logic.


What you say makes sense. But let me pose this to you. Before the projectile buff the vagabond, the sleipner, and the angel cruiser I'll leave out - had 23km of falloff. Now they have over 40km. Where do you draw the line?
ElCholo
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#424 - 2011-11-21 06:59:49 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
What you say makes sense. But let me pose this to you. Before the projectile buff the vagabond, the sleipner, and the angel cruiser I'll leave out - had 23km of falloff. Now they have over 40km. Where do you draw the line?


Honestly, I would be just as happy if they changed that falloff bonus to tracking. Let them hit at high transversal but have to engage at closer ranges. That would fix those three ships and keep ACs as a viable weapon system.
Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#425 - 2011-11-21 07:53:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Mfume Apocal
Large Collidable Object wrote:
In fleet engagements they are gimped at range - ACs are able to deal (admittedly nimble) DPS way beyond scorch range and in gangs with pilots following primaries properly, that would make the cane fleet win. I admit that's theorycrafting, as I've never seen a Harb fleet fighting a Cane fleet (because nobody flies harb fleets for whatever weird reason ;)).


Nobody flies Harb fleets because the Drake can sport more tank and better damage projection while having a similar speed (PDU fit). Canes sidestep this meta because the 2x medium neuts and superior EFT DPS make up for the lost projection when it comes to ganking caps/supers, while Arty Canes (relatively rare) are still useful in a medium gang context as a relative handful can alpha through reps or alpha the logistics themselves.

Also: I'm not sure where this meme of "autos outrange pulse" got started, but it simply isn't true. A (220mm, 2x TE) Vaga might have 40km of falloff and this is a considerable range advantage over a Harb, but a HPL (+2x TE/TC) Zealot sports an optimal of 44km. Apples to apples, pulse have more range, period.

Quote:
The question from an FCs POV is: Why would a gang of Canes fight an equally numbered gang of Harbs? If my scout reports an equally sized Harb gang, I wont engage unless I know all my pilots have barrage in their holds and know to bounce to a safespot as soon as they take a sliver of shield damage and the Harb gang is comprised of idiots (most likely, since they bring a gang of Harbingers).

...

Put yourself into the situation of the FC and you'll see why nobody runs Harb gangs.


This entire scenario you have laid out is less about tanking styles or range bonuses and more about the fact that in EVE, most gang PvP is semi-consensual. I've slipped out from nanogangs in a plated BS fleet before, simply because avoiding PvP in EVE is easy if you're prepared (in our case, false scout jumps and delay bubbles on gates). Even when unprepared, armor gangs are perfectly capable of escaping, insofar as they are typically built to ride out the 60 seconds necessary to deaggro and jump/dock.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#426 - 2011-11-21 08:12:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
Zarnak Wulf wrote:

What you say makes sense. But let me pose this to you. Before the projectile buff the vagabond, the sleipner, and the angel cruiser I'll leave out - had 23km of falloff. Now they have over 40km. Where do you draw the line?



You do understand that at 44km with a Vaga:

a) You need a T3 mindlinked interdiction booster and faction point to keep anything from warping away
b) That the vaga needs to have some time on its hands because it only does 400dps at optimal, and that far out its doing less than a hundred...yes even with barrage loaded.
c) Even if the vaga pilot doesn't have a booster and 140mil isk point, at 22km its doing something like 225 (can look it up right now) DPS .....a feat accomplished by a frigate that is up close.
d) If you slow down said Vaga, its hosed, once you scram a Vagabound its done, kaput, aka F!cked.
e) No Vaga pilot in his right mind is going to try to stay 40km out, because ALL of the medium range turret systems are going to light him up, and a Vaga simply isn't going to win a fight when its getting hit.

So unless you are flying frigates, this should be relatively easily countered...of you are flying an armor brick BC, well congratulations, you're rock, he's paper. If you are in a Nano-BC, it shouldn't be terribly hard to screw with his range until you get a few shots on him and chase him off, or get away.

Christ I'm a **** poor solo pilot, and I don't really worry about a Solo vaga,
Vmir Gallahasen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#427 - 2011-11-21 09:01:06 UTC
Onictus wrote:

You do understand that at 44km with a Vaga:
...
b) That the vaga needs to have some time on its hands because it only does 400dps at optimal, and that far out its doing less than a hundred...yes even with barrage loaded.
c) Even if the vaga pilot doesn't have a booster and 140mil isk point, at 22km its doing something like 225 (can look it up right now) DPS .....a feat accomplished by a frigate that is up close.

Hi,

2x gyro 2x TE vaga does 399 DPS overheated (trying to match your figures) with 41km falloff. At 22km it's doing roughly 330 DPS with barrage. It gets ~225 DPS at 34.5ish km. A max skilled blaster incursus overheated with faction antimatter deals 193 DPS, which is the same DPS the said vaga achieves at 39 or so km. A max skilled rifter (1 gyro) overheated does 148 DPS, which is the same DPS the said vaga achieves at 45.3km

Just wanted to clear up some of your misconceptions.

Bye
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#428 - 2011-11-21 09:33:41 UTC
Vmir Gallahasen wrote:
Onictus wrote:

You do understand that at 44km with a Vaga:
...
b) That the vaga needs to have some time on its hands because it only does 400dps at optimal, and that far out its doing less than a hundred...yes even with barrage loaded.
c) Even if the vaga pilot doesn't have a booster and 140mil isk point, at 22km its doing something like 225 (can look it up right now) DPS .....a feat accomplished by a frigate that is up close.

Hi,

2x gyro 2x TE vaga does 399 DPS overheated (trying to match your figures) with 41km falloff. At 22km it's doing roughly 330 DPS with barrage. It gets ~225 DPS at 34.5ish km. A max skilled blaster incursus overheated with faction antimatter deals 193 DPS, which is the same DPS the said vaga achieves at 39 or so km. A max skilled rifter (1 gyro) overheated does 148 DPS, which is the same DPS the said vaga achieves at 45.3km

Just wanted to clear up some of your misconceptions.

Bye

Not misconceptions, didn't have it in front of me.......I don't have EFT on my work computer.....and I simply don't have every combiniation of ship memorized as, there are quite a few of them it seems. And really, when was the last time you saw a T1 frigate attack a battlecruiser solo. I have interceptors that are over 200DPS, no heat.


So what does an Zealot do DPS wise at 40KM, I had one that basically stripped my shields in about two shots. no idea how it was fit through.

Besides the point really, I was pointing out that a Vagabond its a magic bullet, a Zealot should be able to chase one of the field, and a Ishtar should more or less faceroll it. Barring a mistake anyway.

You see a stack of vagas running around mainly because it can outrun damn near everything it can outgun.
Julia Connor
P R O M E T H E U S
#429 - 2011-11-21 17:09:34 UTC
From what I've been reading so far you are saying the falloff on ACs should be nerfed so most minnie ships would be forced to fight within blaster range or a lot closer where blaster boats totally dominate atm and will definitely dominate after the upcoming expansion. No thx, I like it the way it is atm.
Techno General
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#430 - 2011-11-21 17:15:01 UTC
Nerf Idiots, remove their ability to post.
Vmir Gallahasen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#431 - 2011-11-21 21:41:01 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Not misconceptions, didn't have it in front of me.......I don't have EFT on my work computer.....and I simply don't have every combiniation of ship memorized as, there are quite a few of them it seems. And really, when was the last time you saw a T1 frigate attack a battlecruiser solo. I have interceptors that are over 200DPS, no heat.

It wasn't me who started comparing vaga dps to frigates. Why cough up numbers to support your argument when you haven't even, you know, checked them out?

Onictus wrote:
So what does an Zealot do DPS wise at 40KM, I had one that basically stripped my shields in about two shots. no idea how it was fit through.

Ahac zealot with heavy pulse and 2 heat sinks does ~91 DPS at 40k with scorch (vaga's doing ~160). Vaga has something like 70 or 80% better tracking as well. Zealot has a commanding DPS advantage at ranges of less than 36km though.

Onictus wrote:
You see a stack of vagas running around mainly because it can outrun damn near everything it can outgun.

And because it's got some escape options, unlike a zealot which is toast if tackled by something small.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#432 - 2011-11-22 00:14:02 UTC
Vmir Gallahasen wrote:
And because it's got some escape options, unlike a zealot which is toast if tackled by something small.


This is really true - the culprit here is that the Zealot's drone bay is... lackluster.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Causalitii Eullon
Catalyst Consortium
#433 - 2011-11-22 01:02:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Causalitii Eullon
Joe Skellington wrote:
These forums are starting to resemble the WoW forums with cry threads about nerfing things. Wow, just wow.


All I got from this is you are a WoW *** and even on top of that you are a WoW forum wh0r3...

That makes you a gay WoW forum wh0r3?
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#434 - 2011-11-22 01:04:43 UTC
Causalitii Eullon wrote:
Joe Skellington wrote:
These forums are starting to resemble the WoW forums with cry threads about nerfing things. Wow, just wow.


All I got from this is you are a WoW day and even on top of that you are a WoW forum *****...

That makes you a gay WoW forum *****?


I just got back from a rather... enforced... removal from Eve and I can say with certainty that this is nothing like what is seen on other MMO forums. I have half a blog post written up about it - but the tl;dr is that the class system fragments the player base and causes the unrest that's seen with other MMOs.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Desudes
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#435 - 2011-11-22 01:29:01 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Causalitii Eullon wrote:
Joe Skellington wrote:
These forums are starting to resemble the WoW forums with cry threads about nerfing things. Wow, just wow.


All I got from this is you are a WoW day and even on top of that you are a WoW forum *****...

That makes you a gay WoW forum *****?


I just got back from a rather... enforced... removal from Eve and I can say with certainty that this is nothing like what is seen on other MMO forums. I have half a blog post written up about it - but the tl;dr is that the class system fragments the player base and causes the unrest that's seen with other MMOs.

-Liang


Then how do you explain class forums being clusterfucks? And I dunno about you but I sure as hell see a lot of racial division in the EVE community. These forums can get a lot meaner then anything I've seen, especially when it spills over to in-game, nothing you can do in any MMO matches the grief that can be caused in-game in EVE.

I found lack of intelligence to be more of a problem then anything. People were so hard to educate in WoW and they blamed things such as their or others classes when the problem was they just didn't know what they were doing. I stopped playing WoW with the release of Lich King and stayed away from other games forums, so I could be wrong.

Excuse me, but what the f*ck are you desu?
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#436 - 2011-11-22 01:44:46 UTC
Desudes wrote:


Then how do you explain class forums being clusterfucks? And I dunno about you but I sure as hell see a lot of racial division in the EVE community. These forums can get a lot meaner then anything I've seen, especially when it spills over to in-game, nothing you can do in any MMO matches the grief that can be caused in-game in EVE.



Liang hurt my feelings. I had to cry myself to sleep. P
Large Collidable Object
morons.
#437 - 2011-11-22 01:44:53 UTC
Going to keep this short as I'm really tired

Liang Nuren wrote:


A few comments:
- I think you meant to say pathetic, not nimble because that just makes no sense. Nimble is like.. jack jumped over the candle stick without burning his arse.


I meant feeble - sorry - English obviously isn't my first language, so bear with me.

Quote:

- The Hurricane does worse DPS than the Harbinger - up close and at range. Up close tends to imply a very small gang (< 10 people probably) while at range tends to imply that the gang is of significantly larger size. In a really small gang, you just get rocked because you're up close with someone that's got way better DPS/EHP than you. In a larger gang, you get rocked because they can engage at further ranges than you with superior DPS. Either way - solo or not - the Binger is a better choice.


It doesn't - it can out-dps Harbs out of scorch range (although overalll DPS are feeble) and it can out-dps them at close range with max transversal, provided the harb doesn't have a web. Since I wont land at zero in most cases and I don't know if it has a web, I'd personally opt for the kiting option.

Quote:

- I find it ******* hilarious that the Nerf Minmatar crowd first claims that because the Hurricane is better in a straight up brawl that projectiles need nerfed. Then when shown that this is patently false, they say that it needs a nerf because its too good at range when fitting range mods!

I honestly have no choice but to think that you simply don't know why people fly the Cane over the Binger - because its not anything that's really been mentioned here in this thread. IMO, at least as far as the Binger/Cane debate goes, it comes down to two things:
- The Binger is a couple percent harder to fit. This is the difference between any noob with the battlecruiser skill flying your fit and F-Off if you don't have AWU4+. Basically, when you need to get 5000 people into one ship kind, you need this.
- Lasers use cap - a lot of it. This can really hurt you in a long protracted drawn out fight... such as trying to chew through the 100-200 man "small gangs" that roam 0.0. (FWIW, if the size is wrong don't blame me - blame the people that actually think something so ******* braindead and keep poasting it. I don't do 0.0 anymore - WHs and low sec for me.)

I am not 'the crowd'. Besides the main advantage of Minmatar is the fact that in most cases, you don't need to switch ammo at all - swapping crystals may be quick, but it requires a couple of distracting clicks.
I know the reasons why I fly and field and ask for canes over harbs, and it's exactly the reasons I mentioned. Besides, except for a short stint for personal reasons earlier this year, I haven't lived in 0.0 in over three years if that matters.

Quote:

So basically, either he just warps off when you won't engage or he pushes you out of disruptor range and warps off. Both of these are really easy to do, though I admit that it may be a bit of a lost art these days. Either way, you don't get a kill because you're ***** footing about trying to make sure that you don't die to his superior up close and projected DPS. Seems balanced, TBH.


Evading the point, are we? A single Harb vs a single cane? Yeah - probably - I wouldn't engage a solo harb in my solo cane under most circumstances, as I mentioned numerous times. If I have a buddy in whatever ship with me, it's a different issue.

To keep it simple: three Canes engage a Harb, the Harb dies. 3 Harbs engage a Cane, the Cane warps off.

Quote:

- It's very easy to find medium laser fleets - though you probably won't find Harbinger fleets. Honestly, why anyone would fly BC fleets when they have any intention of actually winning a serious engagement is beyond me. IMO, Cane fleets are called "welp fleets" for a really good reason.- Lasers simply do better DPS. You don't seem to dispute this, so I'm curious why you're trying to discredit me?

-Liang


Because it's really simple - A Cane vs. a Harb may be balanced when engaged. I don't really dispute that for the most part (yet I'd still prefer to be in the Cane). If I fly the Cane, I have far better options to decide whether I engage or not.

If I run a cane gang and i don't see a clear advantage over the hypothetical Harb gang, I wont engage 100% of the time and get away with it 100% of the time if there's no human error involved. If I see a clear advantage, I'll engage and win.

If I run a Harb gang and I'm superior, I can force the Canes to keep out of my scorch/point range because I do oh-so great damage. But yeah - kind of defeats the purpose because they'll want to run anyway.

Therefore, Cane gangs will win 100% of the time.
That's why nobody flies Harbs - not because of some fitting skills every one-year old has maxed anyway.
You know... [morons.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gjOx65yD5A)
Tara Read
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#438 - 2011-11-22 04:55:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Tara Read
As a gallente pilot, I can say learn to fly your damned ships! Minny has no need to be nerfed. I fly canes, drakes, etc and sorry to burst everyones bubble but there is no I win button. Already I see the gallente buff as being downright deadly in the right hands especially with the slight increase to damage. Gank megathron anyone? Post patch shows with void ammo (no tracking penalty) ogre's your looking at 1406 dps. Did I mention you can also now fit a heavy cap injector?

Or how about my personal favorite. 150k ehp triple plate mega. 1126 dps, 860 ms with agility boost and once again can fit a heavy cap injector.

Yes please by all means nerf minny so there's no challenge anymore...
Vmir Gallahasen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#439 - 2011-11-22 07:22:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Vmir Gallahasen
Tara Read wrote:
Or how about my personal favorite. 150k ehp triple plate mega. 1126 dps, 860 ms with agility boost and once again can fit a heavy cap injector.

An abaddon fit similarly has 2.5% less DPS but 10% more EHP and about three times the range, and deals more damage at ranges beyond 7.5km

I'm glad you're impressed with the changes but you'll soon see they're not nearly enough. a 2.5% dps advantage is not a good enough reason to put yourself in the zone of scramwebneut despair, especially when you have to give up EHP to do it which more than negates your advantage in the first place
Kingwood
Gone Krabbing
#440 - 2011-11-22 08:01:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Kingwood
Why is this thread still going?

- The Vaga example is pretty stupid. Anyone scared of a solo Vaga or Cynabal deserves to die - they're really easy to catch even in a trimarked Myrmidon. Falloff and speed are the only things those ships have going for them and that's as it should be. Disengaging at will is a myth, since it's so easy to catch and scramble them as most pilots have no clue how to kite anymore. If the pilot does know how to kite he's staying at edge of point range and it's easy to disengage and warp off yourself if he does out-dps you at that range (lol).

- Anyone complaining about Minmatar range conveniently forgets about the falloff mechanic. A Cane at range with barrage loaded does ****-poor damage. A Vaga/Cane/Cyna or any other kiting ship needs to be able to actually point stuff so it's range is actually a non-issue. unless he's flying with links but if he does that, you can also bet that he's not alone.

- Harb > Shield-Cane, unless there is an extreme skill difference both character and pilot-wise.

tl;dr Stop complaining, you're probably just bad or got caught ratting.