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[Rubicon] Rapid Missile Launchers - v2

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Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#2921 - 2013-12-09 19:26:52 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
not really, since it's always the missile that shows up on the kill, rather than the missile launcher, and I'm guessing eve-kill have filtered those out like they have with drones.

I'm just going off the list you cited, where it lists the top 20 kill weapons. So if the missile was in fact showing up on the kill, we'd see heavy and heavy assault launchers in this list (among others). We don't - that speaks volumes.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Niena Nuamzzar
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#2922 - 2013-12-09 19:27:05 UTC
Moonaura wrote:

If you add in a target painter or webber, then everything - even with an AB is shiny as far as light precision missiles are concerned and you can expect to hit your targets perfectly 100% of the time.

I know what you are trying to say but still, you won't deal more than 70 to 80% of your total damage to really fast frigs. And that is before resists, with perfect skills & implants, web and drones! So please please, don't use 100% so lightly because CCP Kill Missiles will hear it all wrong and first thing they will do is nerf light missiles to the ground, promising future tweaks and adjustments but in reality we will end up with another broken weapon system, waiting patiently for the day that never comes.
Moonaura
The Dead Rabbit Society
#2923 - 2013-12-09 19:31:33 UTC
Trouser, if you're using Rails on a Thorax, you don't need to load iron to reach to disruptor range - not even close. Iridium is a good bet, and will still hit fast kiting ships. Agreed, in that situation its not as good as a Light Missile - however...

There is a trick on how you fly them.

Lets say you are in a Thorax being kited like that, basically what you do is either turn your MWD on a look at the enemy orbit - and either go towards where he will be - or away from where he will be - and you will find that the guns will then hit for a very high amount indeed.

Although I've been playing with them on SISI, I've yet to take out solo Thorax's around Black Rise in game yet (Sorry, what can I say, Football Manager is addictive), but I suspect that I'll typically be far better off in the Thorax than I would be in a Caracal now.

I'm actually very keen to do so (Vexor is also on my list). My alt who can use Hybrids has almost finished his armor training.

I agree that TD is too powerful and a big issue for gun pilots. In that sense the condor with them fitted is also powerful. But equally its incredibly vulnerable. I have a whole page of losses in a Condor that suggest that its hull is clearly paper thin and only in the right situation, and the right target, will it really be effective.

A Thorax pilot that uses Warriors, will happily counter any kiting frigates - and doesn't have to worry about the TD at that point.

The fact that Thorax pilots choose to reach the most DPS and bring Hammerheads instead, doesn't mean that Missiles are somehow better, and kiting missile boats are better - it just proves that Thorax pilots only fit for peak DPS. Because... hey Paper DPS is best DPS right?

I absolutely will not be using Missiles in any future gangs I'm taking out. Right now I'm working on using more Minmitar gangs, and in the future - some Ishtar gangs - with peak local tanks of almost 2000 hp a second and 600 DPS, why not?

Minmitar though, right now are very powerful indeed. I mean, they are basically perfect - small signature - high speed - high DPS - high tank numbers, where is the downside? And why would I bring missile boats that have larger signatures, slower, do less DPS and cant' reach the same tank numbers along? Let alone ones that only fire for 50 seconds and reloaded for 40...

"The game is mostly played by men - 97%. But 40% of them play as women... so thats fine."  - CCP t0rfifrans 
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#2924 - 2013-12-09 19:33:02 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
not really, since it's always the missile that shows up on the kill, rather than the missile launcher, and I'm guessing eve-kill have filtered those out like they have with drones.

I'm just going off the list you cited, where it lists the top 20 kill weapons. So if the missile was in fact showing up on the kill, we'd see heavy and heavy assault launchers in this list (among others). We don't - that speaks volumes.


it was some other guy, not me. I merely looked it over, then said it doesn't speak volumes about anything.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#2925 - 2013-12-09 19:34:48 UTC
Moonaura wrote:
Trouser, if you're using Rails on a Thorax, you don't need to load iron to reach to disruptor range - not even close. Iridium is a good bet, and will still hit fast kiting ships. Agreed, in that situation its not as good as a Light Missile - however...


thorax is not a kiting frigate. I was comparing LR missiles to LR turrets for kiting frigates.

a solo rail thorax is only going to kill idiots.
Moonaura
The Dead Rabbit Society
#2926 - 2013-12-09 19:39:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Moonaura
Erm... of course a Thorax isn't a kiting frigate. Its a flying phallic spaceship, on that everyone can agree.

Please join me on SISI to see how your frigates do against a rail fit thorax. I'll let you choose any frigate you like. And lets test it!

"The game is mostly played by men - 97%. But 40% of them play as women... so thats fine."  - CCP t0rfifrans 
Moonaura
The Dead Rabbit Society
#2927 - 2013-12-09 19:45:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Moonaura
Niena Nuamzzar wrote:
Moonaura wrote:

If you add in a target painter or webber, then everything - even with an AB is shiny as far as light precision missiles are concerned and you can expect to hit your targets perfectly 100% of the time.

I know what you are trying to say but still, you won't deal more than 70 to 80% of your total damage to really fast frigs. And that is before resists, with perfect skills & implants, web and drones! So please please, don't use 100% so lightly because CCP Kill Missiles will hear it all wrong and first thing they will do is nerf light missiles to the ground, promising future tweaks and adjustments but in reality we will end up with another broken weapon system, waiting patiently for the day that never comes.


I have booted up EFT again to stare at it.

You are right and I am wrong - indeed there is a good DPS drop off on a AB fit frigate (i.e. with a Nano fit) - I think I was recalling an earlier test against an Incursus with an AB where the DPS drop off was not so severe.

Depends what frigate you go for and how fast the AB frigate is going, but DPS drop off, even with light precisions is around 40%-20%.

So, then.. conclusion - Explosion Velocity is fine on Light Precisions? Its worth discussing.

My figures show an AB Condor with single nano being hit for 200 dps when at 70% of its speed (i.e orbit velocity) and a MWD one being hit for 300 dps (full 50 second burst damage from the Caracal)

"The game is mostly played by men - 97%. But 40% of them play as women... so thats fine."  - CCP t0rfifrans 
Marcus Walkuris
Aww yeahhh
#2928 - 2013-12-09 20:02:13 UTC
Moonaura wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Fourteen Maken wrote:
The problem with heavy missiles is the limited number of targets you could confidently engage with them fitted on a Caracal. If you look at the targets you most commonly come up against in low sec most of them can either kill the caracal or at least burn out of disruptor range before you can kill them, some active tank t1 frigs could solo you, let alone small gangs. There are very few instances where you could hope to get a kill with HML on, but the turret union come in here and try to say they have the same problems with their medium weapons... I think not, or nobody would ever lose a ship.
Try flying with LR turrets : you'll have less range and less tank, and if anything tackle you you are doomed.

Or fit it Moonaura and any cruiser will kill you, or any active tanked kiting frigate, or AF.

Fourteen Maken wrote:
Drones are OP
Lol. :D



Hey Bouh its been a while. You still haven't taken me up on my offer of testing my Thorax vs any Frigate you'd like to bring on SISI. Strange that.


The real Missile Expert gold is to be found here. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=301515&p=7
Vincintius Agrippa
Crimson Serpent Syndicate
#2929 - 2013-12-09 20:07:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Vincintius Agrippa
Thoughts of a caldari pilot...................

Hmm, how shall i fit thy caracal for cruiser v cruiser pvp?
5x ham II's
hmmm, i need a target painter to hit **** for atleast half my dps, -1 mid
hmmm, i need a mwd or ab to catch up.......... -1 mid.
Damn, thats almost half my tanking potential
Moving on............
okay so hmmmmm..., I need ascram- 1 mid
Jesus, only 2 slots left for tank :(
LSE- 1 slot
AIF II -1 mid.

WOW i can fit 3 damage mods? this surely makes up for that!
3x BCU-3 lows
Damage Control II

Wait, why am i only doing 370 dps? My skills are at 4 and 5 :(
OH WAIT, load t2 ammo :)
YWWWwwaaaaaaaahhhhaaaaawwwwwwwwwwww.
only 420? my thorax gets 450, and i only have medium hybrid 3 and gallente cruiser 3 :(
I fired t2 nova rages at an omen in half structure and he laughed at me in local, before killing me :(
This isnt fun..........I guess i better start training every other weapon system any every other racial cruiser :(
Only YOU can prevent internet bullying!
Dr Sraggles
The Covenant of Blood
#2930 - 2013-12-09 20:15:13 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Dr Sraggles wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:

I also am talking about the missile itself. it's totally broken OP.



Please share your thoughts for why that is so.

On the grand list of weapons that people are actually using it pales in comparison to Blasters, Rails and Auto Cannons.

http://eve-kill.net/?a=top20


it's in that list 3 times. crow #3 on ships. those stats are irrelevant however - this is a balance discussion.

this is a pretty long list, I sometimes forget bits of it:

very high alpha - between 250 and 280mm artillery - this really bothers attack frigates, because they have zero hp, and is also annoying on active tanks, as they can sneak past most of your buffer.
usually about 50-100% more dps than you'd get kiting with LR turrets.
too much tracking - they apply perfectly to slowboating frigates, and with a rig or module or two and precisions, you can easily crack tanky afterburning frigates.
capless, all damage types, ability to use FOFs vs ecm and damps, not vulnerable to tracking disruptors - same deal as cruise missiles I guess, but worth mentioning, as they are all reasons for me not to fly a beam executioner.
multiplies perfectly with snakes/links/speed mods for ridiculous kiting ability, since you don't have to worry about transversal or being out of range, you can just crank up the speed and tackle range forever. with turrets you'd end up using iron or radio or whatever, and you'd still missing if you want to just orbit at max speed.
useful t2 ammo types for a variety of targets, whereas when kiting with turrets, generally you only have one ammo that's applicable for your range, and the t2 ammo is actually niche and sensible (i.e. you never use it).


1. The Crow is a ship, not a missile. The success of ships on that list is tied to Null Blob Doctrine.

2. Light Missiles are at the bottom of the list of the top 20 for weapons with a very small fraction of the kills of Blasters and Auto Cannons.

3. I agree that kiting ships are where Light Missiles shine, but the numbers show that Brawling is where the VASTLY greater majority of kills take place. I hate being kited too. But I love to kite. Brawling gets me more kills.

4. Auto Cannons are the ones that have the advantage ammo wise. Most Caldari ships are bonused for Kinetic and lose ~25% of their dps if they change ammo.

5. Please tell me what can't hit a slow boating frigate? My bro in a Naga has no trouble with them at 200km.

6. Snakes and Links and Tackle range are a separate discussion as well. I know a Rapier/Arazu/Loki pilot that enjoys them just as much. Lets face it, most people are not out there in 1 Bill isk pods if they PvP a lot. If they are really mixing it up in Null esp.

So with your focus on FOF and hurting EAF so much perhaps we should create a thread about the OP new changes to those ships? New devastating Neuts and Webs and Ewar ranges...??? 32km range on Neuts for a Frig? WTFover?

All of my toons are training EAF as we speak.
Moonaura
The Dead Rabbit Society
#2931 - 2013-12-09 20:17:00 UTC
Yeah, even an Thorax without and DPS modules and just 200mm Rails will do 282 dps on paper. While still technically reaching Disruptor range without the need to reload. With DPS modules... well...

"The game is mostly played by men - 97%. But 40% of them play as women... so thats fine."  - CCP t0rfifrans 
Vincintius Agrippa
Crimson Serpent Syndicate
#2932 - 2013-12-09 20:17:30 UTC
Texty wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
So your saying people should not be able to post in a thread they have interest in more than -, - How many times is considered too many?


Posting a lot doesn't necessarily mean the poster is contributing, especially in a thread where only a handful of people are repeatedly posting the same thing over and over again.

A few posts are usually enough. If you find yourself posting like 30, you are either being trolled, or unintentionally becoming a troll yourself.


Considering that this is the only topic and how serious this problem really is, it makes sense that people keep repeating themselves.

Considering how CCP NERFZILLA and CCP FIZZLEWAFFE only tune in ever 60-70 pages or so to talk henceforth from ass, it is important for us to repeatedly remind them of their idiocy.
Only YOU can prevent internet bullying!
Moonaura
The Dead Rabbit Society
#2933 - 2013-12-09 20:29:26 UTC
Try this one out:

A Rail fit Thorax with two DPS modules, leaving three spare for tank and hammerheads - can hit a MWD Caracal for 550 DPS in an 8-9km orbit - dropping off once outside of web range. With Plutonium Faction in, at Disruptor range orbits, its hitting for 480 DPS.

But hey, HAM's do consistent damage right? So better.

Erm... the HAM's with Rages will hit for just 301 DPS if it uses an AB, or 309 without. 10% of the DPS comes from a single Hammerhead Drone in the Caracal.

Again. Why bother using missile boats? Without a Bellicose, they won't work. Thorax doesn't need support.

"The game is mostly played by men - 97%. But 40% of them play as women... so thats fine."  - CCP t0rfifrans 
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#2934 - 2013-12-09 20:35:02 UTC
Dr Sraggles wrote:

1. The Crow is a ship, not a missile. The success of ships on that list is tied to Null Blob Doctrine.

2. Light Missiles are at the bottom of the list of the top 20 for weapons with a very small fraction of the kills of Blasters and Auto Cannons.

3. I agree that kiting ships are where Light Missiles shine, but the numbers show that Brawling is where the VASTLY greater majority of kills take place. I hate being kited too. But I love to kite. Brawling gets me more kills.

4. Auto Cannons are the ones that have the advantage ammo wise. Most Caldari ships are bonused for Kinetic and lose ~25% of their dps if they change ammo.

5. Please tell me what can't hit a slow boating frigate? My bro in a Naga has no trouble with them at 200km.

6. Snakes and Links and Tackle range are a separate discussion as well. I know a Rapier/Arazu/Loki pilot that enjoys them just as much. Lets face it, most people are not out there in 1 Bill isk pods if they PvP a lot. If they are really mixing it up in Null esp.

So with your focus on FOF and hurting EAF so much perhaps we should create a thread about the OP new changes to those ships? New devastating Neuts and Webs and Ewar ranges...??? 32km range on Neuts for a Frig? WTFover?

All of my toons are training EAF as we speak.


1/2. I already said those numbers are irrelevant and inaccurate, if you read some other posts. in case you do think they are relevant though, I think eve-kill is only counting actual highslot weapons, and not charges that show up as your weapon on the killmail (this happens with missiles 90% of the time). just like how it's not showing any drones in the top weapons list, despite dominix apparently being the most popular ship. the crow's popularity is from nullblobbing, even though it's not the best fleet tackler. it is not just for nullblobbing though. if you can get someone to engage you in it, you'll find that it's like a condor, but even more ridiculous.

3. irrelevant, and it's all rock paper scissors. you get no kills in a condor because everyone knows it's grossly overpowered so they never engage.

4. small autocannons cannot hit anything at range unless on a wolf, and even then are not used for kiting. kestrel and breacher have all-types damage bonus, and losing 20% is better than not being able to choose. against t2 ships it's very useful (I guess arguably because kinetic sucks).

5. an attack frigate orbiting it at 4km/s. the point is, missiles are supposed to sometimes do reduced damage. they don't do it often enough with light missiles, because they track too well since their sig got a 25% buff.

6. yeah they're broken too, but they aren't unrelated, because they enhance these ships more than they enhance other ships. if you make an effort, you are immune to being podded in lowsec and link alts are immune to pvp, so why not? there are jump clones for when you want to be reminded how bad nullsec is. and again, what 'most people' do doesn't matter much.
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#2935 - 2013-12-09 20:40:59 UTC
Dr Sraggles wrote:


1. The Crow is a ship, not a missile. The success of ships on that list is tied to Null Blob Doctrine.

2. Light Missiles are at the bottom of the list of the top 20 for weapons with a very small fraction of the kills of Blasters and Auto Cannons.

3. I agree that kiting ships are where Light Missiles shine, but the numbers show that Brawling is where the VASTLY greater majority of kills take place. I hate being kited too. But I love to kite. Brawling gets me more kills.

4. Auto Cannons are the ones that have the advantage ammo wise. Most Caldari ships are bonused for Kinetic and lose ~25% of their dps if they change ammo.

5. Please tell me what can't hit a slow boating frigate? My bro in a Naga has no trouble with them at 200km.

6. Snakes and Links and Tackle range are a separate discussion as well. I know a Rapier/Arazu/Loki pilot that enjoys them just as much. Lets face it, most people are not out there in 1 Bill isk pods if they PvP a lot. If they are really mixing it up in Null esp.

So with your focus on FOF and hurting EAF so much perhaps we should create a thread about the OP new changes to those ships? New devastating Neuts and Webs and Ewar ranges...??? 32km range on Neuts for a Frig? WTFover?

All of my toons are training EAF as we speak.



Thanks for fixing all the stupid in that post I didn't even know where to begin.
Marcus Walkuris
Aww yeahhh
#2936 - 2013-12-09 20:43:42 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
3. irrelevant, and it's all rock paper scissors. you get no kills in a condor because everyone knows it's grossly overpowered so they never engage.


Really now???? It's not like condor's are tackle or like they have a super popular bigger brother in both caldari and Amarr interceptors. It isn't like these are dedicated tackles and there have been swarms of them flying around at the speed of infinity.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#2937 - 2013-12-09 20:54:14 UTC
Marcus Walkuris wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
3. irrelevant, and it's all rock paper scissors. you get no kills in a condor because everyone knows it's grossly overpowered so they never engage.


Really now???? It's not like condor's are tackle or like they have a super popular bigger brother in both caldari and Amarr interceptors. It isn't like these are dedicated tackles and there have been swarms of them flying around at the speed of infinity.


a 'dedicated' tackler does 0 dps
scorchlikeshiswhiskey
Totally Abstract
O X I D E
#2938 - 2013-12-09 20:59:06 UTC  |  Edited by: scorchlikeshiswhiskey
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Marcus Walkuris wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
3. irrelevant, and it's all rock paper scissors. you get no kills in a condor because everyone knows it's grossly overpowered so they never engage.


Really now???? It's not like condor's are tackle or like they have a super popular bigger brother in both caldari and Amarr interceptors. It isn't like these are dedicated tackles and there have been swarms of them flying around at the speed of infinity.


a 'dedicated' tackler does 0 dps

You can't fix stupid....
Edit: it is entirely possible the a dedicated tackler does 0 dps, but the overwhelming tendency of your posts is very much on the stupid side.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#2939 - 2013-12-09 21:16:47 UTC
scorchlikeshiswhiskey wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Marcus Walkuris wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
3. irrelevant, and it's all rock paper scissors. you get no kills in a condor because everyone knows it's grossly overpowered so they never engage.


Really now???? It's not like condor's are tackle or like they have a super popular bigger brother in both caldari and Amarr interceptors. It isn't like these are dedicated tackles and there have been swarms of them flying around at the speed of infinity.


a 'dedicated' tackler does 0 dps

You can't fix stupid....
Edit: it is entirely possible the a dedicated tackler does 0 dps, but the overwhelming tendency of your posts is very much on the stupid side.


that's pretty rude, especially considering that I'm right about everything. might have to report you.
scorchlikeshiswhiskey
Totally Abstract
O X I D E
#2940 - 2013-12-09 21:32:19 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
scorchlikeshiswhiskey wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Marcus Walkuris wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
3. irrelevant, and it's all rock paper scissors. you get no kills in a condor because everyone knows it's grossly overpowered so they never engage.


Really now???? It's not like condor's are tackle or like they have a super popular bigger brother in both caldari and Amarr interceptors. It isn't like these are dedicated tackles and there have been swarms of them flying around at the speed of infinity.


a 'dedicated' tackler does 0 dps

You can't fix stupid....
Edit: it is entirely possible the a dedicated tackler does 0 dps, but the overwhelming tendency of your posts is very much on the stupid side.


that's pretty rude, especially considering that I'm right about everything. might have to report you.

wah wah wah It's the internet, deal.
Big smile

On a slightly more serious note, do you fly missiles?