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[Rubicon] Rapid Missile Launchers - v2

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Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#2901 - 2013-12-09 17:56:48 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
How about instead of nerfing the launchers or missiles, a module is released to help reduce application?

How about not, since the current damage application for missiles suck. Why would we want to make it worse?


Did u read the rest where I said buff HM then release module?

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#2902 - 2013-12-09 17:57:39 UTC
Dr Sraggles wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Moonaura wrote:
If you look at Light Missiles, they are overall fine


lol


I believe he was talking about the characteristics of the missile itself, not the old Rapid launchers, not the precision version, just the missiles (flight time, explosion velocity, explosion radius, flight speed etc).


This is also separate from ship bonuses etc.


I also am talking about the missile itself. it's totally broken OP.
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#2903 - 2013-12-09 18:06:29 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
How about instead of nerfing the launchers or missiles, a module is released to help reduce application?

How about not, since the current damage application for missiles suck. Why would we want to make it worse?


Did u read the rest where I said buff HM then release module?


If it goes into a utility high a lot of people leave those empty or stick a nos in as an afterthought; it's a stealth nerf of missiles in all classes, not just heavies, so they would all need to be looked at again and I don't think anyone wants that right now.
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#2904 - 2013-12-09 18:11:10 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Dr Sraggles wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Moonaura wrote:
If you look at Light Missiles, they are overall fine


lol


I believe he was talking about the characteristics of the missile itself, not the old Rapid launchers, not the precision version, just the missiles (flight time, explosion velocity, explosion radius, flight speed etc).


This is also separate from ship bonuses etc.


I also am talking about the missile itself. it's totally broken OP.


Drones are OP
scorchlikeshiswhiskey
Totally Abstract
O X I D E
#2905 - 2013-12-09 18:16:34 UTC
@ CCP- I don't think anyone here that is arguing on behalf of missiles wants them to behave just like turrets, in fact I feel confident saying it is quite the opposite. We want them to behave differently. The only similarity we want with turrets is the viability. Turret proponents will argue their specific cases in which missiles function "just fine", or are OP, but those are the minority. In the majority of cases missile boats are outclassed by gun boats in the most important ways: time to target, damage application, and even the relative size of charges that a ship can carry. Time to target does not need to be 0 like with every other weapon, but there should be a reason to want missiles in a fleet despite the time they take to travel to target. (With a maximum velocity that doesn't make sense in space.) Damage application has clearly been discussed here a little bit.
What about the number of charges a ship can hold though? I ran my Navy Raven in VG incursions with several fleets with a good bit of success for several months this year. I would enter a site and begin engaging the same targets as the Machariels and on average I would go through 400+ missiles per site. If I was not the utility boat responsible for ore drops and hacks I could hold several thousand cruise missiles that would hold me over for a few hours. A gun boat would easily hold over 15 thousand charges, enough for an entire night of incursions and more. This is a small gripe, and one that is situational, but I have not seen it mentioned and I bring it up only to show another face to the inequality of missiles vs. turrets. (Or, in math terms: Missiles < Turrets)
You will find that our outcries can be quieted if you are willing to listen and provide viable answers rather than quoting the anonymous metrics yet again. We understand you have jobs and that reading all of our posts would be a full-time job, not to mention responding to all of them in detail. However, we would like you to try and put yourselves in our shoes and look at the replies you have given us. Would you be satisfied with your replies if you were us? Would you be satisfied with the state and history of missiles if you were us? No matter the answer, would you be willing to take some time out of your undoubtedly busy days to sit down and address the valid concerns of the missile pilots that are feeling ever-neglected?
If you can honestly answer yes to the last question, I would encourage you to take some time to fit up some missile ships and attempt to duplicate our concerns to experience the frustration for yourselves. We would be very interested in your results. If you are satisfied with the state of missiles and see no reason why they should change in a positive way, we would be extremely interested if you would tell us why instead of simply saying metrics and other ubiquitous terms.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#2906 - 2013-12-09 18:17:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Bouh Revetoile
Fourteen Maken wrote:
The problem with heavy missiles is the limited number of targets you could confidently engage with them fitted on a Caracal. If you look at the targets you most commonly come up against in low sec most of them can either kill the caracal or at least burn out of disruptor range before you can kill them, some active tank t1 frigs could solo you, let alone small gangs. There are very few instances where you could hope to get a kill with HML on, but the turret union come in here and try to say they have the same problems with their medium weapons... I think not, or nobody would ever lose a ship.
Try flying with LR turrets : you'll have less range and less tank, and if anything tackle you you are doomed.

Or fit it Moonaura and any cruiser will kill you, or any active tanked kiting frigate, or AF.

Fourteen Maken wrote:
Drones are OP
Lol. :D
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#2907 - 2013-12-09 18:24:23 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Fourteen Maken wrote:
The problem with heavy missiles is the limited number of targets you could confidently engage with them fitted on a Caracal. If you look at the targets you most commonly come up against in low sec most of them can either kill the caracal or at least burn out of disruptor range before you can kill them, some active tank t1 frigs could solo you, let alone small gangs. There are very few instances where you could hope to get a kill with HML on, but the turret union come in here and try to say they have the same problems with their medium weapons... I think not, or nobody would ever lose a ship.
Try flying with LR turrets : you'll have less range and less tank, and if anything tackle you you are doomed.

Or fit it Moonaura and any cruiser will kill you, or any active tanked kiting frigate, or AF.

Fourteen Maken wrote:
Drones are OP
Lol. :D


Welcome back Bouh Lol
Dr Sraggles
The Covenant of Blood
#2908 - 2013-12-09 18:27:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Dr Sraggles
Firstly, thanks again to CCP Fozzie and Rise for contributing to the thread. But, I am going to do a little translation here:

CCP Fozzie wrote:


Over the last week the number of characters using RLMLs each day was 6.5% lower than the pre-Rubicon average. We were actually expecting the decrease to be a bit more significant at this point, and this easily falls within acceptable ranges.



Translation: "Yes, we know we nerfed RLML into the ground and expected people to move on to other weapons system. Working as intended."

CCP Fozzie wrote:


Thanks as always for the continued feedback!"



Translation: "We expected people to be upset and predicted much crying and tears after a gigantic nerf. It happens. Deal with it."


And there you have it boys. There is no expected viability of Caldari Cruisers in PvP. None, Zero, Nada. As long as Caldari Nublings can get through a Level 2 regardless of the quality of the game play, too bad. They don't have a choice anyways.

If a Drake can still do a Level 3 and a Tengu Level 4's then Heavies are fine. L2PvE Caldari. What an amazing experience it is!

Time to train those gunnery skills because the business model is to get you to train more, not to make the game enjoyable using what you have time invested in already.

CCP you have an enormous problem creating content in your game. The ONLY content is what the players do to each other. What passes for PvE in EvE is a pathetic shadow compared to video games of 10 years ago. Yet you expect missile users to be happy with it.

When you make Caldari only viable for PvE you make a very significant portion of your player base "non-viable" for the real content of this game, which is PvP. That you so blithely dismiss the consequences of this nerf and the lack of effectiveness of Caldari for PvP above the level of frigs is very revealing as to why Eve remains so incredibly small. You have convinced yourselves that Null Blobs are serious biz and will drive your game's popularity and not realized the vast majority of gamers on Planet Earth have not the slightest interest in time dilated spreadsheets in space.

The vast majority of gamers want fun small scale PvP so that their systems can run it effectively over the web. They want their time invested to be rewarded with capable tools. Yea, so you expected a 23% damage Nerf to result in less players using the RLML system. This is shocking and surprising. Working as intended! We'll make it even more niche than before! It will be less Powerful and Less Fun.....! Working as intended.

Maybe you could share with us your vision for Heavy Missiles because right now, none of us can see it other than you are making money off of people that think they are a good system until they get to the real content of the game, PvP.

And then they realize they've been screwed.
Moonaura
The Dead Rabbit Society
#2909 - 2013-12-09 18:29:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Moonaura
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Fourteen Maken wrote:
The problem with heavy missiles is the limited number of targets you could confidently engage with them fitted on a Caracal. If you look at the targets you most commonly come up against in low sec most of them can either kill the caracal or at least burn out of disruptor range before you can kill them, some active tank t1 frigs could solo you, let alone small gangs. There are very few instances where you could hope to get a kill with HML on, but the turret union come in here and try to say they have the same problems with their medium weapons... I think not, or nobody would ever lose a ship.
Try flying with LR turrets : you'll have less range and less tank, and if anything tackle you you are doomed.

Or fit it Moonaura and any cruiser will kill you, or any active tanked kiting frigate, or AF.

Fourteen Maken wrote:
Drones are OP
Lol. :D



Hey Bouh its been a while. You still haven't taken me up on my offer of testing my Thorax vs any Frigate you'd like to bring on SISI. Strange that.

Rails can reach far further than Missiles.

Rails can do more DPS than Missiles - even HAM's.

Rails, can hit their targets far better than Missiles except when a frigate for example, is very close range (below 6km) but can fit Webs in its spare mid slots to solve that - and in a gang - that doesn't matter at all anyway, as people are spread out. The only exception is the Light Precision missile - which is now gimped on Cruisers and can't reach past 300 DPS on a Caracal - for 50 seconds, while the gun boats do more DPS than that, with a 5 second reload and hold more than 50 seconds of ammo.

Blasters and Rails are the most popular weapons in the game for a reason. You yourself, fly nothing but gunnery and have over +90% success rate. Your corps gangs are almost entirely gun based. And yet, Missiles are somehow far better at everything? Which begs the question - if they are so good, why aren't you flying them?

"The game is mostly played by men - 97%. But 40% of them play as women... so thats fine."  - CCP t0rfifrans 
Dr Sraggles
The Covenant of Blood
#2910 - 2013-12-09 18:41:50 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Dr Sraggles wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Moonaura wrote:
If you look at Light Missiles, they are overall fine


lol


I believe he was talking about the characteristics of the missile itself, not the old Rapid launchers, not the precision version, just the missiles (flight time, explosion velocity, explosion radius, flight speed etc).


This is also separate from ship bonuses etc.


I also am talking about the missile itself. it's totally broken OP.



Please share your thoughts for why that is so.

On the grand list of weapons that people are actually using it pales in comparison to Blasters, Rails and Auto Cannons.

http://eve-kill.net/?a=top20
Moonaura
The Dead Rabbit Society
#2911 - 2013-12-09 18:44:07 UTC
Repost in the hopes CCP try it...

Moonaura wrote:
In the words of the great Scott Bakula in Quantum Leap: Oh bouh.

In essence, you are correct, missiles are meant to offer consistent damage at their full range.

But the amount of that damage being delivered is consistently FAR lower than the DPS suggests, and the very fact that keeping range in EVE is one of the core challenges in a fight, it doesn't really work out that way, or in anyway, beneficial of the missile boat.


  1. Boot up the latest EFT.

  2. Create a new DPS Graph.

  3. Set the speeds of BOTH ships to 70% and set them pointing in diagonally opposite directions. This will simulate a typical orbit scenario, but we will come back to these settings in a moment.

  4. Create a new Condor Frigate with a Microwarp and make sure its active (we'll pretend we're fighting fast kiters in this instance). Add this as the target in the DPS Graph.

  5. Create a new empty Stabber, to simulate a fast cruiser, add both a AB and MWD, but active the MWD to start. Add this as a target in the DPS Graph.

  6. Create an empty Thorax.

  7. Load in a full compliment of 200mm Rail Guns, load Caldari Navy Iridium

  8. DPS should read 162

  9. Add the ship as attacker

  10. Create an empty Caracal

  11. Load in a full compliment of Heavy Missiles, and load in their anti-frigate missile - the T2 Precisions.

  12. Add the ship as attacker

  13. DPS should read 150



Now the first thing to consider here, is that we are using a gun type that isn't as good at tracking as blasters, but you wanted to talk about damage over range being consistent. Unlike missiles, it can also change ammo quickly to faster tracking antimatter close in.

I picked Iridium charges to simulate the same range as the missiles. Without rigs it is impossible to make these reach any further - unlike the guns, but we will come to that.

So we have similar DPS ships, without ANY tracking or other bonuses of any kind, tracking two ships that are moving with high transversal mechanics.

The result?

Well, on the Stabber, the Thorax is doing close to 80% of its damage over most of the range, hitting almost 95% of its peak damage at 32km or so. It does drop below the missiles damage at either end of the ranges, but again, with the Thorax we can change ammo!

The missiles on the stabber, a cruiser, being hit by Heavy Missiles best possible anti-cruiser weapon, for only two thirds of its peak damage. In other words, unlike the Thorax, its consistently at all ranges, dropped a third of its DPS - against a target, that the missile is designed to hit.

Against the frigate, we see a different picture. Overall, the missile is hitting the frigate far better. But it is only hitting it for 45 dps. That is less than a third of its potential DPS. A 150dps weapon, now does 45 DPS, against a kiting, fast frigate with its MWD on.

What you have to consider throughout all of this, is that we haven't even started to improve things. And this is where the additional choice that gun pilots have, dramatically outweigh the consistency of the missiles.

First off, you can change your ammo as you get in closer. If you fit Antimatter faction ammo, DPS on the Thorax rises to 278. A dramatic increase, and the mechanics of the ammo changes as well.

Against the stabber, DPS has suddenly jumped dramatically and the guns without any other bonuses at all, are hitting great at their ideal ranges, although they also lose around 60dps, or about 25%.

Against the Condor things go badly for the Rail fit Thorax, but that is no surprise at this point.

So lets improve the situation for both ships and add a projected effect of a target painter onto both ships.

Woah. Big change here. Make sure you popped the Faction Iridium back in BTW.

The Thorax against the Stabber, is doing almost full damage across the entire mid range and is significantly hitting better than the missiles.

Missiles against the Stabber have improved dramatically, but are still not close to their full DPS and offer significantly less DPS compared to guns.

Against the Condor however, OMG. Watch those guns FLY BABY! The DPS dramatically increases doing the same peak damage that the missiles do against the cruiser!

This is just one module in to improving these characteristics.

What else can we do to make the missiles hit better? Well actually, not an awful lot at this sort of range. We could fit a target painter, but stacking penalties kick in and those mid slots on the Caracal are presumingly used in most fits for a shield tank and propoulsion, so you only have 2 slots free at the very best. One of those naturally would be a point, albeit we're out of range in most of this fights ranges. So one target painter it is then.

All that is realistically left for the Caracal at this point are rigs, which means giving up on either tank rigs / fitting / energy rigs / speed rigs.

But putting in the Rigor and Flare rigs, one each, finally gives the Caracal the ability to do its full DPS against the Stabber (which hasn't been improved bar a MWD bear in mind).

On the Thorax, put in a tracking enhancer and a tracking computer.

The Thorax is now doing almost the same damage to the Condor, as the Caracal can only do against the Stabber. Ouch.

With iridium, I'm peaking damage against the Condor for 140 dps. Heavy Precision Missiles with rigs? 54 dps.

Again, closing in, the Thorax can go for Anti Matter. At this point, without any damage mods at all, the rail fit thorax can hit the Stabber for 260dps and has a very low fall off arc. Missiles are still down at 150dps.

You still have room for a web, another target painter, an active tank, another tracking computer if you wanted, and adaptable scripts and of course - rigs. Now change the velocity and angles.

Guns consistently out DPS heavy, precision missiles across the full range by a large margin.

"The game is mostly played by men - 97%. But 40% of them play as women... so thats fine."  - CCP t0rfifrans 
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#2912 - 2013-12-09 18:53:48 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Did u read the rest where I said buff HM then release module?

Yes, but I don't think you appreciate how the current missile mechanics work (or more specifically, how they don't). If you buff heavy missiles only to introduce another countermeasure, you not only end up basically where we are now - but potentially worse. It's not the damage, but the damage application.
…..

To fix heavy missiles, you need only adjust the explosion radius and velocity to make them more effective against cruisers. This will have almost no effect on smaller vessels. To fix light missiles, you just need to roll the damage back to the pre-Odyssey level and increase damage application. This will ensure light missiles are just as effective against smaller vessels but diminish their effectiveness against cruisers and larger targets by upwards of 10%. Then roll the rapid light and rapid heavy launchers back to their original destinations.

Problem solved with a minimum of adjustments, and everyone's happy. Except turret players, because they're not happy unless they're seeing missiles nerfed into oblivion.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Vincintius Agrippa
Crimson Serpent Syndicate
#2913 - 2013-12-09 18:54:37 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Moonaura wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey guys. As I'm sure you know, we're keeping an eye on how people are using the new Rapid Launchers, watching how people adapt to the new strengths and weaknesses of them and keeping a close eye on the metrics surrounding them. We're also getting some good experience flying with them on our own player characters in a live environment. Rest assured that we're not ignoring these modules.

As a quick tidbit of metrics for you: Over the last week the number of characters using RLMLs each day was 6.5% lower than the pre-Rubicon average. We were actually expecting the decrease to be a bit more significant at this point, and this easily falls within acceptable ranges.

Thanks as always for the continued feedback!


First off, thanks for following the thread still. Hard to ignore it though I guess - its now the second largest Rubicon thread after marauders, and that had a months lead time.

But sadly, I had to cringe really when reading this. If the goal then, was to reduce people using the RLML by introducing an awful mechanic, then yes, you've achieved your goal. But CCP Rise said this was supposed to be 'Fun' so surely we should be seeing an increase surely?

This just makes me think you've basically introduced this to kill RLML over use, without understanding the reasons why it became popular in the first place.

1. The Light Precision Missiles hit almost every target perfectly

2. Heavy Precision Missiles hit for only a third or half their DPS against Frigates and Fast Cruisers and do less DPS than the old RLML, so why bother using them - so nobody did.

If you fit 5 Target Painters to a Caracal and its missile still can't hit at their full potential, then, clearly there is something very wrong. And please bear in mind these missiles already do far less potential DPS than their gun counterparts - yes - even at range.

I repeat - please give us the choice over the original RLML and the new burst ones - then you could truly see if anyone really wants to play with burst modules - or prefers to have more than 18 missiles in their launcher.

And fix the Heavy Precision missiles... which are a terrible, laughable joke.



Sorry but this logic is Wrong. No ship in game has a way to ensure it will hit for 100% of its potential damage against a ship of a smaller class.

Missile users want something compeltely unfair there. A rupture also cannot hit a frigate with AB to the majority of its damage, even if they use 5 tack computers and track enhancers.

Dmage mitigation HSOULD exist. Missiel users must get this into their head, turrets in some situatiosn suffer less, but in other sistuations they suffer way more.

The value might need adjustment, but is lack of reasonable thinking to expect any missile to hit for 100% of damage on an AB frigate!


That not what were saying. The point were trying to make is that missiles above lights, more specifically heavy missiles, which are cruiser sized weapons never do as much dps as turrets nor do they apply what little dps they have against other cruisers. Medium T2 Damage missiles can only deal damage to Bc's on up. Plop on an ab and dps drops by 70%. 
Only YOU can prevent internet bullying!
Moonaura
The Dead Rabbit Society
#2914 - 2013-12-09 18:57:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Moonaura
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Did u read the rest where I said buff HM then release module?

Yes, but I don't think you appreciate how the current missile mechanics work (or more specifically, how they don't). If you buff heavy missiles only to introduce another countermeasure, you not only end up basically where we are now - but potentially worse. It's not the damage, but the damage application.
…..

To fix heavy missiles, you need only adjust the explosion radius and velocity to make them more effective against cruisers. This will have almost no effect on smaller vessels. To fix light missiles, you just need to roll the damage back to the pre-Odyssey level and increase damage application. This will ensure light missiles are just as effective against smaller vessels but diminish their effectiveness against cruisers and larger targets by upwards of 10%. Then roll the rapid light and rapid heavy launchers back to their original destinations.

Problem solved with a minimum of adjustments, and everyone's happy. Except turret players, because they're not happy unless they're seeing missiles nerfed into oblivion.


Nailed it. I feel a Charlie Sheen quote coming along.

"I am on a drug. It's called Charlie Sheen." - Charlie Sheen

PS. I'm not against the Burst modules and CCP Rise's Idea - I'm against having NO choice in having to use them. I'd like the choice.
PPS. My choice would not be to use them - but hey, they are there for the folks who want to use them, instead of a 900 DPS Vexor. Nobody is perfect I guess.

"The game is mostly played by men - 97%. But 40% of them play as women... so thats fine."  - CCP t0rfifrans 
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#2915 - 2013-12-09 19:06:26 UTC
Moonaura wrote:
Nailed it. I feel a Charlie Sheen quote coming along.

"I am on a drug. It's called Charlie Sheen." - Charlie Sheen

PS. I'm not against the Burst modules and CCP Rise's Idea - I'm against having NO choice in having to use them. I'd like the choice.
PPS. My choice would not be to use them - but hey, they are there for the folks who want to use them, instead of a 900 DPS Vexor. Nobody is perfect I guess.

"You can't process me with a normal brain." - Charlie Sheen
(that's how I feel trying to get RLMLs to work…)

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#2916 - 2013-12-09 19:08:17 UTC
Dr Sraggles wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:

I also am talking about the missile itself. it's totally broken OP.



Please share your thoughts for why that is so.

On the grand list of weapons that people are actually using it pales in comparison to Blasters, Rails and Auto Cannons.

http://eve-kill.net/?a=top20


it's in that list 3 times. crow #3 on ships. those stats are irrelevant however - this is a balance discussion.

this is a pretty long list, I sometimes forget bits of it:

very high alpha - between 250 and 280mm artillery - this really bothers attack frigates, because they have zero hp, and is also annoying on active tanks, as they can sneak past most of your buffer.
usually about 50-100% more dps than you'd get kiting with LR turrets.
too much tracking - they apply perfectly to slowboating frigates, and with a rig or module or two and precisions, you can easily crack tanky afterburning frigates.
capless, all damage types, ability to use FOFs vs ecm and damps, not vulnerable to tracking disruptors - same deal as cruise missiles I guess, but worth mentioning, as they are all reasons for me not to fly a beam executioner.
multiplies perfectly with snakes/links/speed mods for ridiculous kiting ability, since you don't have to worry about transversal or being out of range, you can just crank up the speed and tackle range forever. with turrets you'd end up using iron or radio or whatever, and you'd still missing if you want to just orbit at max speed.
useful t2 ammo types for a variety of targets, whereas when kiting with turrets, generally you only have one ammo that's applicable for your range, and the t2 ammo is actually niche and sensible (i.e. you never use it).
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#2917 - 2013-12-09 19:13:00 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
On the grand list of weapons that people are actually using it pales in comparison to Blasters, Rails and Auto Cannons.

On the grand list of weapons, light missile launchers appear twice - in the #19 and #20 positions, respectively. You'll note the complete absence of rockets, rapid light missile launchers, heavy missile launchers, heavy assault missile launchers, rapid heavy missile launchers and cruise missile launchers. I think that's telling, don't you?

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#2918 - 2013-12-09 19:21:45 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
On the grand list of weapons that people are actually using it pales in comparison to Blasters, Rails and Auto Cannons.

On the grand list of weapons, light missile launchers appear twice - in the #19 and #20 positions, respectively. You'll note the complete absence of rockets, rapid light missile launchers, heavy missile launchers, heavy assault missile launchers, rapid heavy missile launchers and cruise missile launchers. I think that's telling, don't you?


not really, since it's always the missile that shows up on the kill, rather than the missile launcher, and I'm guessing eve-kill have filtered those out like they have with drones.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#2919 - 2013-12-09 19:23:19 UTC
Ugly quote2quote :
Moonaura wrote:
Hey Bouh its been a while. You still haven't taken me up on my offer of testing my Thorax vs any Frigate you'd like to bring on SISI. Strange that.
Sisi not installed, and no time for that.

*Rails can reach far further than Missiles.
On range bonused hull, maybe ; otherwise, no. And absolutely not with the same level of effort. You can reach 95km with a Thorax if you fit for all range (250mm railguns, and all range bonuses you can fit ; notice you can't fit any form of tank with 250mm railguns). HM reach this with 3 rigs.

*Rails can do more DPS than Missiles - even HAM's.
Granted since the medium turret buff HM might need a little love, I already said it. HAM though are fine IMO : they have pulse laser dps (or more) with pulse laser range. They don't have pulse laser tracking problem at short range, but they have their damage application problem against frigates. Add no cap use and selectable damage, and that seems fair to me.

*Rails, can hit their targets far better than Missiles except when a frigate for example, is very close range (below 6km) but can fit Webs in its spare mid slots to solve that - and in a gang - that doesn't matter at all anyway, as people are spread out. The only exception is the Light Precision missile - which is now gimped on Cruisers.
Bellow 20km, railguns wont apply any dps to a frigate correctly flying.
pyfa dps graph.Values are for a MWD Incursus, Thorax (tracking bonus = TE+scripted TC) sans drones. I'm not comparing the ship here but the missile system. Thorax is with 1MFS.
In fleet, your missiles will have all the support needed to apply all their damage. If you are actually complaining about the armor vs shield balance, that's another subject.

*Blasters and Rails are the most popular weapons in the game for a reason. You yourself, fly nothing but gunnery and have over +90% success rate. Your corps gangs are almost entirely gun based. And yet, Missiles are somehow far better at everything?
I fly gallente since they were very bad. When I began the game, it was all minmatar and the Drake. Two years ago, I saw shield BS fleet accepting Apocalypse but not Hyperion... In fact, these years, I spent my time fitting gallente ships for them to reach the capabilities of minmatar and caldari ships. So no, I'm not flying gallente because they are fotm. I'm flying them because I chose to fly them 3 years ago and I'm a stubborn idiot doing everything I can to make my things work. But that's just the way I play the game. Granted blasters have been overbuffed (null particularly have too much range, or neutron blasters not enough fitting).
And if my corp fly mostly gunnery ships, it's because we are a bunch of idiots believing a gal FW corp must have gallente schemed fleets. As we also have newbies, having armor and shield fleets in our doctrines wouldn't be efficient. We know it, because we tried it : when T1 cruisers were rebalanced, we had shield fleet of all tastes (MWD kiting fleet, AB tanky fleets). Best ships for the job where, wait for it.... Caldari ones ! But too few had the skills for everything, so we had to make a choice and gallente won because we are in galmil and people come here with gallente skills !
Yet, more recently, our FC came with a LR frigate fleet to defend plexes, and guess what ship he came with ?

Oh, and if I have success rate that high, it's because I don't play enough and I fly too much with my corp, and because a tengu leech + pod allow you to lose infinite number of T1 frig/cruisers and still have good efficiency.

Also, I never said missiles where better at everything, never (except for light missiles vs small turrets). I'm only saying they have their use.
scorchlikeshiswhiskey
Totally Abstract
O X I D E
#2920 - 2013-12-09 19:26:16 UTC  |  Edited by: scorchlikeshiswhiskey
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Dr Sraggles wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:

I also am talking about the missile itself. it's totally broken OP.



Please share your thoughts for why that is so.

On the grand list of weapons that people are actually using it pales in comparison to Blasters, Rails and Auto Cannons.

http://eve-kill.net/?a=top20


it's in that list 3 times. crow #3 on ships. those stats are irrelevant however - this is a balance discussion.

this is a pretty long list, I sometimes forget bits of it:

very high alpha - between 250 and 280mm artillery - this really bothers attack frigates, because they have zero hp, and is also annoying on active tanks, as they can sneak past most of your buffer.
usually about 50-100% more dps than you'd get kiting with LR turrets.
too much tracking - they apply perfectly to slowboating frigates, and with a rig or module or two and precisions, you can easily crack tanky afterburning frigates.
capless, all damage types, ability to use FOFs vs ecm and damps, not vulnerable to tracking disruptors - same deal as cruise missiles I guess, but worth mentioning, as they are all reasons for me not to fly a beam executioner.
multiplies perfectly with snakes/links/speed mods for ridiculous kiting ability, since you don't have to worry about transversal or being out of range, you can just crank up the speed and tackle range forever. with turrets you'd end up using iron or radio or whatever, and you'd still missing if you want to just orbit at max speed.
useful t2 ammo types for a variety of targets, whereas when kiting with turrets, generally you only have one ammo that's applicable for your range, and the t2 ammo is actually niche and sensible (i.e. you never use it).

Have you even bothered to read all the reasons that missiles are broken before you went off on the typical rant of a gun pilot? It's the same busted points that you just listed that have kept the nerfs coming for missiles.
A turret pilot has 2 low slot passive mods to choose from, missile pilots have 1. A turret pilot has dedicated, scripted mods to increase stats, a missile pilot has the same 2 that a turret pilot will have on a support ship. Turret pilots like to point out the web and TP as the solution to all missile application problems, but you yourselves use them too. So turret pilots have 2 dedicated passive mods and a dedicated, scripted active mod while missile pilots have 1 dedicated passive mod. Balanced right? Stop toeing the outdated party line, join hands with Bouh, and both of you come back when you can be useful to a discussion. Smile Also, have a nice day.