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[Rubicon] Rapid Missile Launchers - v2

First post First post First post
Author
Warde Guildencrantz
TunDraGon
Shadow Cartel
#2861 - 2013-12-09 12:02:27 UTC
Altrue wrote:
In terms of game design, this rebalance is crap due to the reload time being too long. Creating inactivity and uselesness in the middle of a fight. This is counpounded by the fact that you cannot see the time remaining for the reload, and that you cannot switch ammo fast enough to use missiles how they were designed to be used.


If not firing missiles for a bit means you are sitting there doing absolutely nothing in a fight, then I think you aren't fighting correctly. If you don't kill the enemy by the time your rounds run out, chances are you should be doing some evasive maneuvers.

In terms of ammo types, they already said they would look into being able to switch ammo easily without a 40 second reload back at the start of the topic. It didn't make it into rubicon.

TunDraGon ~ Low sec piracy since 2003 ~ Youtube ~ Join Us

Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#2862 - 2013-12-09 12:04:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Sgt Ocker
Texty wrote:
I wish these forums showed the number of replies a poster has made in the thread under his or her portrait, and bordered the portrait with different colors as the number gets larger, like, up to 5 replies = white, 10 = yellow... and made the portrait flashy red once it exceeds 30 or something.
So your saying people should not be able to post in a thread they have interest in more than -, - How many times is considered too many?

Personally I wish people who weren't contributing to a thread were not allowed to post but that's just me.

Quote:
Warde Guildencrantz
In terms of ammo types, they already said they would look into being able to switch ammo easily without a 40 second reload back at the start of the topic.
And you don't think that would be exploited to bypass the 40 second reload altogether?

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Spugg Galdon
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2863 - 2013-12-09 12:50:36 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:

Quote:
Warde Guildencrantz
In terms of ammo types, they already said they would look into being able to switch ammo easily without a 40 second reload back at the start of the topic.
And you don't think that would be exploited to bypass the 40 second reload altogether?



It wouldn't be able to exploit the 40 second reload timer because (as I currently understand it) it will be a 1 for 1 swap of ammo.

For example: you have 15 rounds of Fury missiles. You switch to precision but you would only get 15 rounds of precision.

or

you have 5 rounds of explosive and switch to EM. you only get 5 rounds of EM.
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#2864 - 2013-12-09 12:52:14 UTC
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:
Altrue wrote:
In terms of game design, this rebalance is crap due to the reload time being too long. Creating inactivity and uselesness in the middle of a fight. This is counpounded by the fact that you cannot see the time remaining for the reload, and that you cannot switch ammo fast enough to use missiles how they were designed to be used.


you are sitting there doing absolutely nothing in a fight, then I think you aren't fighting correctly.



Where did he say that?
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#2865 - 2013-12-09 12:54:03 UTC
Spugg Galdon wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:

Quote:
Warde Guildencrantz
In terms of ammo types, they already said they would look into being able to switch ammo easily without a 40 second reload back at the start of the topic.
And you don't think that would be exploited to bypass the 40 second reload altogether?



It wouldn't be able to exploit the 40 second reload timer because (as I currently understand it) it will be a 1 for 1 swap of ammo.

For example: you have 15 rounds of Fury missiles. You switch to precision but you would only get 15 rounds of precision.

or

you have 5 rounds of explosive and switch to EM. you only get 5 rounds of EM.


Will the swap be instant like crystals?
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#2866 - 2013-12-09 13:08:22 UTC
Spugg Galdon wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:

Quote:
Warde Guildencrantz
In terms of ammo types, they already said they would look into being able to switch ammo easily without a 40 second reload back at the start of the topic.
And you don't think that would be exploited to bypass the 40 second reload altogether?



It wouldn't be able to exploit the 40 second reload timer because (as I currently understand it) it will be a 1 for 1 swap of ammo.

For example: you have 15 rounds of Fury missiles. You switch to precision but you would only get 15 rounds of precision.

or

you have 5 rounds of explosive and switch to EM. you only get 5 rounds of EM.
That would make it pretty much unable to be exploited but still does nothing to fix the underlying problem with launchers.

It may make them a little more user friendly for small fleets or gangs out for a fast hit and run gank but as a medium sized ship, primary weapon system, of which caldari missile users have 1 below par alternative in HML. It still leaves a very big hole as far as balance between other races goes.



My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#2867 - 2013-12-09 13:23:21 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey guys. As I'm sure you know, we're keeping an eye on how people are using the new Rapid Launchers, watching how people adapt to the new strengths and weaknesses of them and keeping a close eye on the metrics surrounding them. We're also getting some good experience flying with them on our own player characters in a live environment. Rest assured that we're not ignoring these modules.

As a quick tidbit of metrics for you: Over the last week the number of characters using RLMLs each day was 6.5% lower than the pre-Rubicon average. We were actually expecting the decrease to be a bit more significant at this point, and this easily falls within acceptable ranges.

Thanks as always for the continued feedback!



Important would be the figures on people that have success.. not everyone.

How many players with a highly positive kill ratio (The ones that can judge properly a weapon system) are using them?

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Spugg Galdon
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2868 - 2013-12-09 13:30:46 UTC
Fourteen Maken wrote:
Spugg Galdon wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:

Quote:
Warde Guildencrantz
In terms of ammo types, they already said they would look into being able to switch ammo easily without a 40 second reload back at the start of the topic.
And you don't think that would be exploited to bypass the 40 second reload altogether?



It wouldn't be able to exploit the 40 second reload timer because (as I currently understand it) it will be a 1 for 1 swap of ammo.

For example: you have 15 rounds of Fury missiles. You switch to precision but you would only get 15 rounds of precision.

or

you have 5 rounds of explosive and switch to EM. you only get 5 rounds of EM.


Will the swap be instant like crystals?


If not instant I imagine it would be a maximum of 10 seconds
Moonaura
The Dead Rabbit Society
#2869 - 2013-12-09 13:48:39 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey guys. As I'm sure you know, we're keeping an eye on how people are using the new Rapid Launchers, watching how people adapt to the new strengths and weaknesses of them and keeping a close eye on the metrics surrounding them. We're also getting some good experience flying with them on our own player characters in a live environment. Rest assured that we're not ignoring these modules.

As a quick tidbit of metrics for you: Over the last week the number of characters using RLMLs each day was 6.5% lower than the pre-Rubicon average. We were actually expecting the decrease to be a bit more significant at this point, and this easily falls within acceptable ranges.

Thanks as always for the continued feedback!


First off, thanks for following the thread still. Hard to ignore it though I guess - its now the second largest Rubicon thread after marauders, and that had a months lead time.

But sadly, I had to cringe really when reading this. If the goal then, was to reduce people using the RLML by introducing an awful mechanic, then yes, you've achieved your goal. But CCP Rise said this was supposed to be 'Fun' so surely we should be seeing an increase surely?

This just makes me think you've basically introduced this to kill RLML over use, without understanding the reasons why it became popular in the first place.

1. The Light Precision Missiles hit almost every target perfectly

2. Heavy Precision Missiles hit for only a third or half their DPS against Frigates and Fast Cruisers and do less DPS than the old RLML, so why bother using them - so nobody did.

If you fit 5 Target Painters to a Caracal and its missile still can't hit at their full potential, then, clearly there is something very wrong. And please bear in mind these missiles already do far less potential DPS than their gun counterparts - yes - even at range.

I repeat - please give us the choice over the original RLML and the new burst ones - then you could truly see if anyone really wants to play with burst modules - or prefers to have more than 18 missiles in their launcher.

And fix the Heavy Precision missiles... which are a terrible, laughable joke.

"The game is mostly played by men - 97%. But 40% of them play as women... so thats fine."  - CCP t0rfifrans 

Spugg Galdon
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2870 - 2013-12-09 14:02:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Spugg Galdon
Moonaura wrote:

I repeat - please give us the choice over the original RLML and the new burst ones - then you could truly see if anyone really wants to play with burst modules - or prefers to have more than 18 missiles in their launcher.

And fix the Heavy Precision missiles... which are a terrible, laughable joke.



I would only have the original RLML back with a 20% DPS nerf. That way it is comparable to the Rubicon RLML.



Edit: Heavy missiles in general are pretty poor. I'll give you that.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#2871 - 2013-12-09 14:05:52 UTC
Moonaura wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey guys. As I'm sure you know, we're keeping an eye on how people are using the new Rapid Launchers, watching how people adapt to the new strengths and weaknesses of them and keeping a close eye on the metrics surrounding them. We're also getting some good experience flying with them on our own player characters in a live environment. Rest assured that we're not ignoring these modules.

As a quick tidbit of metrics for you: Over the last week the number of characters using RLMLs each day was 6.5% lower than the pre-Rubicon average. We were actually expecting the decrease to be a bit more significant at this point, and this easily falls within acceptable ranges.

Thanks as always for the continued feedback!


First off, thanks for following the thread still. Hard to ignore it though I guess - its now the second largest Rubicon thread after marauders, and that had a months lead time.

But sadly, I had to cringe really when reading this. If the goal then, was to reduce people using the RLML by introducing an awful mechanic, then yes, you've achieved your goal. But CCP Rise said this was supposed to be 'Fun' so surely we should be seeing an increase surely?

This just makes me think you've basically introduced this to kill RLML over use, without understanding the reasons why it became popular in the first place.

1. The Light Precision Missiles hit almost every target perfectly

2. Heavy Precision Missiles hit for only a third or half their DPS against Frigates and Fast Cruisers and do less DPS than the old RLML, so why bother using them - so nobody did.

If you fit 5 Target Painters to a Caracal and its missile still can't hit at their full potential, then, clearly there is something very wrong. And please bear in mind these missiles already do far less potential DPS than their gun counterparts - yes - even at range.

I repeat - please give us the choice over the original RLML and the new burst ones - then you could truly see if anyone really wants to play with burst modules - or prefers to have more than 18 missiles in their launcher.

And fix the Heavy Precision missiles... which are a terrible, laughable joke.



Sorry but this logic is Wrong. No ship in game has a way to ensure it will hit for 100% of its potential damage against a ship of a smaller class.

Missile users want something compeltely unfair there. A rupture also cannot hit a frigate with AB to the majority of its damage, even if they use 5 tack computers and track enhancers.

Dmage mitigation HSOULD exist. Missiel users must get this into their head, turrets in some situatiosn suffer less, but in other sistuations they suffer way more.

The value might need adjustment, but is lack of reasonable thinking to expect any missile to hit for 100% of damage on an AB frigate!

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#2872 - 2013-12-09 14:15:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Zvaarian the Red
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey guys. As I'm sure you know, we're keeping an eye on how people are using the new Rapid Launchers, watching how people adapt to the new strengths and weaknesses of them and keeping a close eye on the metrics surrounding them. We're also getting some good experience flying with them on our own player characters in a live environment. Rest assured that we're not ignoring these modules.

As a quick tidbit of metrics for you: Over the last week the number of characters using RLMLs each day was 6.5% lower than the pre-Rubicon average. We were actually expecting the decrease to be a bit more significant at this point, and this easily falls within acceptable ranges.

Thanks as always for the continued feedback!


You do understand that something's popularity is only correlative to its quality yes? Please tell me you understand that. Please.

Also I'm assuming overall missile usage went down as well, and I'm also thinking it will continue to go down in the coming months. Is this your real intent? Just admit it if it is.
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#2873 - 2013-12-09 14:20:52 UTC
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey guys. As I'm sure you know, we're keeping an eye on how people are using the new Rapid Launchers, watching how people adapt to the new strengths and weaknesses of them and keeping a close eye on the metrics surrounding them. We're also getting some good experience flying with them on our own player characters in a live environment. Rest assured that we're not ignoring these modules.

As a quick tidbit of metrics for you: Over the last week the number of characters using RLMLs each day was 6.5% lower than the pre-Rubicon average. We were actually expecting the decrease to be a bit more significant at this point, and this easily falls within acceptable ranges.

Thanks as always for the continued feedback!


You do understand that something's popularity is only correlative to its quality yes? Please tell me you understand that. Please.


Of course. I would direct your attention to the first half of my post, which makes it quite clear that metrics are only one of many methods by which we're keeping an eye on how our changes play out on the live server.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#2874 - 2013-12-09 14:23:55 UTC
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey guys. As I'm sure you know, we're keeping an eye on how people are using the new Rapid Launchers, watching how people adapt to the new strengths and weaknesses of them and keeping a close eye on the metrics surrounding them. We're also getting some good experience flying with them on our own player characters in a live environment. Rest assured that we're not ignoring these modules.

As a quick tidbit of metrics for you: Over the last week the number of characters using RLMLs each day was 6.5% lower than the pre-Rubicon average. We were actually expecting the decrease to be a bit more significant at this point, and this easily falls within acceptable ranges.

Thanks as always for the continued feedback!


You do understand that something's popularity is only correlative to its quality yes? Please tell me you understand that. Please.

Also I'm assuming overall missile usage went down as well, and I'm also thinking it will continue to go down in the coming months. Is this your real intent? Just admit it if it is.



Correction, popularity with COMPETENT players is correlated with its quality. Dumb people can be easily deceived... that afteral its Apple main focus.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#2875 - 2013-12-09 14:27:52 UTC
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:

In terms of ammo types, they already said they would look into being able to switch ammo easily without a 40 second reload back at the start of the topic. It didn't make it into rubicon.


People keep saying this like it's ever actually going to happen, therefore problems solved. It hasn't and it probably never will.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#2876 - 2013-12-09 14:32:32 UTC
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:

In terms of ammo types, they already said they would look into being able to switch ammo easily without a 40 second reload back at the start of the topic. It didn't make it into rubicon.


People keep saying this like it's ever actually going to happen, therefore problems solved. It hasn't and it probably never will.



It will be solved, the same day they find a role for the tempest...

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

CCP Rise
C C P
C C P Alliance
#2877 - 2013-12-09 14:32:56 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Rise
I'm going to add some more words to this fairly bizarre thread!

Something that a few of you are at least partially talking about is the difference between power and fun and the relationship between them in this balance pass. I'm extremely interested in this as well and it can be very difficult to figure out how each are impacted during a given change.

The goals for this change, just to be clear, were to lower the overall power level of rapid lights somewhat as we felt they left too little room for the other medium launchers despite their intended application which is very specialized. So in less words: overall nerf, with the exception that they still need to be very good at their specialty of killing frigates.

Attached to that was the goal of keeping them as fun or more fun to use than the were before. This was motivated by the knowledge that if we simply lowered their damage output to achieve the first goal, they would be left feeling very unexciting even though they would still have value against small support.

So we have two things we can discuss now, but they should definitely be kept separate. One is power level, the other is fun.

Metrics like the one Fozzie mentions could represent a range of things, but it's very likely that power level is still more than satisfactory OR that they are so much fun to use that people are still fielding them despite being under-powered, or a combination of the two. Usage is of course also affected by momentum related to skill points and familiarity but the relative stability of use can not be explained completely by that.

edit: Oh, and in case it helps to say it at all, like Fozzie said we are watching these closely and I want to iterate on them. It's too early to know what that iteration might be but they won't get abandoned.

@ccp_rise

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#2878 - 2013-12-09 14:40:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
Have you considered that a third possibility exists?

Specifically, I'm implying that there may be a third group of people: People who, despite hating the new rapid launcher mechanics, continue to field them regardless of power or fun because other missiles still don't do the job better than taking a gamble on rapid launchers.

Also, what do your metrics say about LML usage? How much has it gone up since the RLML change? I don't know about others but every single one of my RLML-toting cruisers has switched over to LMLs.

These last two posts by Fozzie and yourself give me a very very strong feeling that the next thing we hear is going to be "Rapid launchers are really being accepted a lot better by the community than we had expected, so we're satisfied with how missiles are as a whole and won't be looking at them for a while."

Interesting quote by one of the devs during the roam on that Plex for GOOD livestream regarding his RHMLs: "I'm always stuck reloading!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#2879 - 2013-12-09 14:40:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Kagura Nikon
Power level cannot be completely dissociate from fun. Because power level dictates how often you will get frustration. Otherwise peopel would be using festival launchers on pvp.

In real eve, you very rarely can be sure you will face only frigates. If the weapon system is ONLY usable against frigates, its power level is near zero outside duels. No one ask it to be as good as hams to kill cruisers, but when your ship must run from an untanked t1 fit cruiser .. you are not going to have fun.

If you gave zealot pilots the chance to use small lasers with same bonuses they have on medium ones, but with nearly same fittings as the medium ones they would very very rarely be used.

In real eve you cannot throw away your offensive power completely like that. You can trade some, but throwing away means the frustration level will Rise (pun intended) to unbearable levels.


Also a lot of peopel use rapids because other missiles do not FIT in their ships. Keep that in mind. I for once have EXCLUSIVELY that reason to have still some ships with rapid launchers. What would happen with Hams got the same fittings?

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#2880 - 2013-12-09 14:47:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Gypsio III
CCP Rise wrote:


Attached to that was the goal of keeping them as fun or more fun to use than the were before. This was motivated by the knowledge that if we simply lowered their damage output to achieve the first goal, they would be left feeling very unexciting even though they would still have value against small support.


They're not fun. Regardless of their combat utility, a weapon system whose user is permanently worried about a 40 s reload, even just to change damage type, is not fun to use. It's deeply frustrating, aggravating and stressful to know that you're just a few seconds away from being mostly useless for 40 s. Even if you'd just blapped two AFs with your 18 volleys, the fear and worry of what might happen during the next 40 s still means that they're not fun. Straight

The frontloaded damage and burst DPS is a lovely idea for a new mechanic, but it just doesn't work in practice, at least not with the current numbers.

And please sort HMs out. And the damn Phoenix.