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[Rubicon] Rapid Missile Launchers - v2

First post First post First post
Author
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#2841 - 2013-12-09 05:22:38 UTC
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
Jita will just speed tank them. Cool

Fortunately for us, they don't allow the Phoeix into high-sec - so we're good to go. Lol

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

XvXTeacherVxV
Nightmare Machinery
#2842 - 2013-12-09 05:37:26 UTC  |  Edited by: XvXTeacherVxV
Ok.. so after having played with these rapid launchers some I have to say... that I was totally right when I said the 40second timer would be enough to make me not use them. So... guess I'll go back to using turrets now.

EDIT: Also, is it just me or is it kind of weird that rebalance changes always come in increments of 5%? What if a system needs a 7% buff to be perfectly balanced? Uh... 5% and call it close enough.
Can you see the rapier?: http://imgur.com/aFelCpv,GH6lqDE
Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#2843 - 2013-12-09 06:45:33 UTC
XvXTeacherVxV wrote:
Ok.. so after having played with these rapid launchers some I have to say... that I was totally right when I said the 40second timer would be enough to make me not use them. So... guess I'll go back to using turrets now.


At this point the only people who seem to have not foreseen that these changes would make virtually everyone stop using rapid launchers are the people making all the decisions. Not a good sign...
Caleb Seremshur
Pineapple Pizza LLC
#2844 - 2013-12-09 07:39:12 UTC
I'd like to see some stats on their use now that it's been a few weeks since their patch. That's long enough for most players to have tried them out now. Sales figures for the launchers and their use in combat.
Vincintius Agrippa
Crimson Serpent Syndicate
Heiian Conglomerate
#2845 - 2013-12-09 07:57:14 UTC
1. The average caldari pilot, solo:

Highs
slots 1-5
-5 launcher/turrets

Mediums
slots 1-5
1. Prop mod,
2. Scram
3. Target painter ( launchers, to hit ****)
4. web (to apply damage to anything moving faster than 5 m/s, in the case of missiles)
5. Shield module, lse or adaptive <-------Sole defense

Lows
slots 1-4
1. Damage control
2.Ballistic control unit
3. 2nd bcu
4. 3rd bcu <---------------Despite 3 damage mods, missiles still do over 100 dps less than turrets with meta 4's

Rigs 1-3
1.shield extender
2. shield extender or rigor
3.flare catalyst

---------------> outcome, 20k less tank/ over 100 dps less, compared to every other races cruiser.


2. Caldari cruiser pilot, fleet with logistical support and takle (Ospreys for shield reps, Bellicose or vigils for target painting etc.)

Highs 1-5
-5 launchers/turrets
Midslots 1-5
1. Adaptive invul II
2. Adaptive invul II
3. Large Shield Extender II
4. Large Shield Extender II
5. MWD or AB.

Lowslots 1-4
1....
2....
3.....Ballistic control unit II
4. Damage control II

Outcome----------> Proper tank, still 100 dps less than every other racial cruiser. Relies solely on frigates for point, tp ships to do damage to anything. With Hams of course. Heavy Missiles are out of the question.
Only YOU can prevent internet bullying!
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#2846 - 2013-12-09 09:09:13 UTC
I tried the rapid launchers a few time sin cerberus and scythe fleet issue during these 2 weeks. Its pathetic. I felt that I would be better armed with T1 small guns.

Every single target (from AF to Hacs simply ignored my ship when I was using the rapid launchers, because i was not a threat).

On other hand i had to see my team mates kill interceptors with HAMS at same time :)

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#2847 - 2013-12-09 09:32:33 UTC
Hey guys. As I'm sure you know, we're keeping an eye on how people are using the new Rapid Launchers, watching how people adapt to the new strengths and weaknesses of them and keeping a close eye on the metrics surrounding them. We're also getting some good experience flying with them on our own player characters in a live environment. Rest assured that we're not ignoring these modules.

As a quick tidbit of metrics for you: Over the last week the number of characters using RLMLs each day was 6.5% lower than the pre-Rubicon average. We were actually expecting the decrease to be a bit more significant at this point, and this easily falls within acceptable ranges.

Thanks as always for the continued feedback!

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#2848 - 2013-12-09 09:33:01 UTC
I just realized that a LM Corax has better sustained DPS than a RLML Caracal. If that was intended I'm not sure what to say. LM Corax is not exactly top tier destroyer material.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#2849 - 2013-12-09 09:33:35 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Its pathetic. I felt that I would be better armed with T1 small guns.

It wouldn't be so pathetic if it weren't true… I'm pretty sure even standard light launchers out-DPS the rapids simply due to increased capacity.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#2850 - 2013-12-09 09:38:42 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey guys. As I'm sure you know, we're keeping an eye on how people are using the new Rapid Launchers, watching how people adapt to the new strengths and weaknesses of them and keeping a close eye on the metrics surrounding them. We're also getting some good experience flying with them on our own player characters in a live environment. Rest assured that we're not ignoring these modules.

As a quick tidbit of metrics for you: Over the last week the number of characters using RLMLs each day was 6.5% lower than the pre-Rubicon average. We were actually expecting the decrease to be a bit more significant at this point, and this easily falls within acceptable ranges.

Thanks as always for the continued feedback!



Wait until everyone has spent their old ships armed with rapid launchers loaded with 80 rounds. Then it will fall another few %.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Marcus Walkuris
Aww yeahhh
#2851 - 2013-12-09 10:10:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Marcus Walkuris
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey guys. As I'm sure you know, we're keeping an eye on how people are using the new Rapid Launchers, watching how people adapt to the new strengths and weaknesses of them and keeping a close eye on the metrics surrounding them. We're also getting some good experience flying with them on our own player characters in a live environment. Rest assured that we're not ignoring these modules.

As a quick tidbit of metrics for you: Over the last week the number of characters using RLMLs each day was 6.5% lower than the pre-Rubicon average. We were actually expecting the decrease to be a bit more significant at this point, and this easily falls within acceptable ranges.

Thanks as always for the continued feedback!


Translation: Write post in notepad, copy paste to forums. Grab a handful of chips and drink Icelandisch soda.

I don't get any sense of a reply out of this, although it is something it doesn't relate to "this thread"

Edit: I can get not wanting to read this thread all day, can we get some kind of CSM reply/relay??
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#2852 - 2013-12-09 11:02:30 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey guys. As I'm sure you know, we're keeping an eye on how people are using the new Rapid Launchers, watching how people adapt to the new strengths and weaknesses of them and keeping a close eye on the metrics surrounding them. We're also getting some good experience flying with them on our own player characters in a live environment. Rest assured that we're not ignoring these modules.

As a quick tidbit of metrics for you: Over the last week the number of characters using RLMLs each day was 6.5% lower than the pre-Rubicon average. We were actually expecting the decrease to be a bit more significant at this point, and this easily falls within acceptable ranges.

Thanks as always for the continued feedback!


Giving us numbers for PVE and PVP usage would be useful.
Niena Nuamzzar
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#2853 - 2013-12-09 11:09:58 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
We're also getting some good experience flying with them on our own player characters in a live environment.

Please Fraps it and upload to Youtube (or it didn't happen). Thank you.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#2854 - 2013-12-09 11:37:50 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey guys. As I'm sure you know, we're keeping an eye on how people are using the new Rapid Launchers, watching how people adapt to the new strengths and weaknesses of them and keeping a close eye on the metrics surrounding them. We're also getting some good experience flying with them on our own player characters in a live environment. Rest assured that we're not ignoring these modules.

As a quick tidbit of metrics for you: Over the last week the number of characters using RLMLs each day was 6.5% lower than the pre-Rubicon average. We were actually expecting the decrease to be a bit more significant at this point, and this easily falls within acceptable ranges.

Thanks as always for the continued feedback!


But all this tells you is what people think of them, not how good they actually are. Why all this metrics nonsense instead of fixing light missiles?
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#2855 - 2013-12-09 11:44:29 UTC
Fourteen Maken wrote:


Sounds good, but if you plan on soloing in web range would you not be better to just go with a brawling turret ship, or a drone boat instead? When battlecruisers are used in fleets and gangs for things like camping gates and stations the high alpha and instant dps of turrets is more useful than HAM volleys regardless of tank/dps, and I imagine it's a similar situation in fleet engagements, where turret and drone tactics would be superior to missiles.


Certainly it's always been a truism that turrets are better than missiles in fleet environments, and become more better as gang size increases. But I think we all know that that won't be solved without the flight time issue being reduced to the point where missiles aren't actually missiles at all. A lowslot missile tracking/speed enhancer would certainly help mitigate the issue though.

Also, yes, on the brawling scale there are good turret options too. Someone above mentioned the Tornado and Talos as being better choice than a Drake, but the comparison between brawlers and skirmishers isn't very useful. The Brutix was a better comparison, at least with short range fits - there's no way I'm defending HMs these days! However, shield Brutix can lack tackle and is distinctly on the fragile side (invoked to criticise HAM Drake), armour buffer Brutix is painfully slow with trimarks (also invoked to criticise HAM Drake) and similarly flimsy without, while active armour Brutix is rather niche. So I still feel that HAM Drake offers a good mix of tank, damage projection and mobility for a combat BC in a solo or small gang environment. If you're not flying in those environments, then don't use it - I certainly don't in WH fights!

Re. HAM/HML damage application. Well, everyone knows that HMs are out of whack, no further comment needed there! I feel you're too harsh on HAMs though. Your example of a MWDing Stabber is deliberately extreme, something like a Thorax or Rupture would be better (and more representative of the game than the unpopular Stabber?), and there your 25-40% damage application figure quoted are overly pessimistic. It's 71% against an unwebbed MWDing nano shield Thorax, for example, and more against a shield nano Rupture.

Edward Olmops
Gunboat Commando
#2856 - 2013-12-09 11:47:56 UTC
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
I just realized that a LM Corax has better sustained DPS than a RLML Caracal. If that was intended I'm not sure what to say. LM Corax is not exactly top tier destroyer material.


Hm. What exactly is the point here?
The Corax should NOT have higher sustained DPS than the Caracal, because... everyone knows the Corax is crap and everyone loves Caracals??!

(besides, I used the Corax a lot and actually it's a bit short on PG. It should imo at least support a full rack of T2-LM+MWD. Rocket fits are not really good since these destroyers are sooo slow)
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#2857 - 2013-12-09 11:49:57 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey guys. As I'm sure you know, we're keeping an eye on how people are using the new Rapid Launchers, watching how people adapt to the new strengths and weaknesses of them and keeping a close eye on the metrics surrounding them. We're also getting some good experience flying with them on our own player characters in a live environment. Rest assured that we're not ignoring these modules.

As a quick tidbit of metrics for you: Over the last week the number of characters using RLMLs each day was 6.5% lower than the pre-Rubicon average. We were actually expecting the decrease to be a bit more significant at this point, and this easily falls within acceptable ranges.

Thanks as always for the continued feedback!


This does not mean anything.

Is sov fun ? No.
Yet, are people still grinding sov ? Yes.

There are no 36 solutions when you want to be in a cruiser and hit frigates, so people will continue to use RLMLs anyway as long as they do more damage than heavy missiles on frigates...
So your point is irrelevant in terms of game design and game balance.

For the game balance part, this rebalance just made the problem worse with RLMLs even more efficient on frigates and even less efficient on everything else.

In terms of game design, this rebalance is crap due to the reload time being too long. Creating inactivity and uselesness in the middle of a fight. This is counpounded by the fact that you cannot see the time remaining for the reload, and that you cannot switch ammo fast enough to use missiles how they were designed to be used.

So, stop trying to contain the crowd just by throwing metrics that we have no way to verify into the air. Thank you.

Signature Tanking Best Tanking

[Ex-F] CEO - Eve-guides.fr

Ultimate Citadel Guide - 2016 EVE Career Chart

Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#2858 - 2013-12-09 11:54:12 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:


As a quick tidbit of metrics for you: Over the last week the number of characters using RLMLs each day was 6.5% lower than the pre-Rubicon average. We were actually expecting the decrease to be a bit more significant at this point, and this easily falls within acceptable ranges.

Thanks as always for the continued feedback!
Wonder if it would be possible to have some of these figures posted?

Like, what were the figures the week before?

Can you tell from your metrics who is actually "using" RLML and who just fitting them to try them out?

How are they being used? Solo, Small fleet, Large fleet

What ships are they being used on?

What is the win loss ratio for those using them?

I take it "within acceptable ranges" really means "we've created a niche weapon at the expense of a weapon that was fine as it was and your stuck with it as it is"

Did you take into consideration with your metrics those players that due to training have no choice but to use them?
Are only using them while cross training into turrets?
Are like me, only using them (in PVE) to get rid of the 10,000 light missiles I have stockpiled.

Oh and CCP Fozzie, I bet all your own characters have all lvl 5's to do they??


My dream of a pure caldari missile PVP toon is dead.




My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#2859 - 2013-12-09 11:55:32 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey guys. As I'm sure you know, we're keeping an eye on how people are using the new Rapid Launchers, watching how people adapt to the new strengths and weaknesses of them and keeping a close eye on the metrics surrounding them. We're also getting some good experience flying with them on our own player characters in a live environment. Rest assured that we're not ignoring these modules.

As a quick tidbit of metrics for you: Over the last week the number of characters using RLMLs each day was 6.5% lower than the pre-Rubicon average. We were actually expecting the decrease to be a bit more significant at this point, and this easily falls within acceptable ranges.

Thanks as always for the continued feedback!


But all this tells you is what people think of them, not how good they actually are. Why all this metrics nonsense instead of fixing light missiles?


If you mean heavy missiles then I don't think metrics can be ignored, but they will be skewed by pve unless they have some way to isolate pve from pvp usage the missile metrics will always appear to be healthy. Someone posted a link to usage stats earlier and missiles were hardly featured at all in the top 20 weapon systems, so I'm not sure what metric was used to determine RLML was OP in the first place
Texty
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2860 - 2013-12-09 11:58:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Texty
I wish these forums showed the number of replies a poster has made in the thread under his or her portrait, and bordered the portrait with different colors as the number gets larger, like, up to 5 replies = white, 10 = yellow... and made the portrait flashy red once it exceeds 30 or something.