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Passive shield, missiles and more...

Author
Dr Dominence
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2011-11-21 20:56:02 UTC
Just a few things that have been bothering me recently:

Active vs. Passive Shield Tanking: (and the lack of the latter)
If I train for Passive Shield Tanking, which is becoming my preferred way of tanking, but I don't see the recommended cert on anything I can fly other than the drake. I'd like to be able to effectively equip myself to use this method of shield tanking.

Now I have fitted out a caracal as a test and, with my skills, I can get 35hp/s cap stable passive tanking and roughly the same, maybe slightly lower, with a booster attached + utilizing my other slots to get that number up and my capacitor stable. This ship is not flagged for passive tanking though. If anyone can produce other numbers to suggest for/against my argument, please do, I may just be inexperienced in fitting active tanks. I imagine that others who try would be able to get their caracal to do 50-70 hp/s active tanking. This is my fitting, for those of you out there who might have a better idea:


  • 3 cap safeguards (RIG)
  • 2 cap power relay (LO)
  • 1 med shield booster (MED)
  • 1 invul field (MED)
  • 2 cap recharger (MED)
  • 1 shield boost amplifier (MED)
  • 5 heavy launchers (HI)


Missile boats + ship progression:
I find there's a lack of progression for missile boats where other types of fittings have the progression. For instance, doing PvE missions on a progression goes something like this for a Gallente:
Level 1 = Incursus/Tristan -> Catalyst
Level 2 = Catalyst -> Vexor/Thorax
Level 3 = Vexor -> Brutix
Level 4 = Brutix -> Dominix/Megathron (sniper)

Generally, the Gallente PvE progression is always Guns + Drones, along side active armour tanking.

Now, let's look at caldari:
Level 1 = Kestrel
Level 2 = Caracal
Level 3 = Caracal -> Drake
Level 4 = Drake -> Raven

I notice a big gap + plenty of inconsistency. There's no destroyer to carry 7 missile launchers (or any reliable level 1 ship for that matter), and there's no consistency with tanking type. We have Kestrel + Caracal + Raven = active tank, Drake = passive tank.

Maybe it's just me whining? I don't know. But at the very least it would be nice to have a passive shield missile boat for level 1 through 4. Can't reliably run a drake on level 2, and can't reliably run a drake on level 4 either.

I did have some other ideas, but they escape me at the moment. I may need time to recover from the rant.

Would be nice to hear your feedback though, I would like to hear if anyone has decent passive tank fits that I may just not be aware of.

Cheers,

DD.
Gazmin VanBurin
Boma Bull Corp
#2 - 2011-11-21 20:59:45 UTC
It is kinda funny that passive shield tanking kinda falls apart after the BC class, but I blame that on the lack of an XL shield extender.
Dr Dominence
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2011-11-21 21:06:12 UTC
Also, I feel that with all of the training I've put into missiles + shield tanking (passive, more specifically), I should be able to walk through level 1 missions with ease. Right now, I run a kestrel, but I should be able to run a destroyer with missiles imo.
Nezumiiro Noneko
Alternative Enterprises
#4 - 2011-11-21 23:52:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Nezumiiro Noneko
a good passive tank is based on natural ship recharge rate ability. Of which iirc only drake and rattler have a good stat. EDIT: coffee hasn't hit yet.....gila also a good passive tanker. Worm was meh for me....ymmv.


Why passive is associated with them. Nothing stopping you from running passive on other ships.....but they will lack that natural ship stat that is higher on these 2. What this means if the room gets thick with rats, you won't recharge fast enough worst case.

YOU will also passive tank a cap/super. Active tank can get capped out. Killing the tank...and boom goes the cap faster. Also for whatever reason, crystals don't work on caps...why bother lol.

Passive also kills lows. Why its a bad idea on say ravens. Raven/cnr....are tank by making wrecks ships. Moar bcu, more carnage. Killing that with spr hurts these ships. Same with other ships. Mag stab for hybrids, gyro for shield minny, etc. You can try a passive rokh in time. I did...its okay. But its not an uber passive tank since it will be 3 mag stabs no if ands or buts.


There is a missile destroyer....flycatcher. only 2 ships in this class, and caldari runs guns and missiles. Corm got the guns, bulletcatcher got the missiles. All base covered for caldari basically. YOu can run dictors without bubble launchers....not needed to fly them. Would not do this for pvp as you are expected to run them. Pve go for it though.
Chi Quan
Bibkor Enterprises
#5 - 2011-11-22 01:43:00 UTC
Dr Dominence wrote:
....

that is history as it happened. the drake was added long after the other ships. the natural transition suggested by the devs is (or was) frig - cruiser - bs. but it shifted a bit every expansion due to various ingame changes, leading to the current state.
destroyers were originally intended mainly as pvp ships, as anti-frigate platforms. and the raven used to have rails, and missiles were a rather new thing. actually a lot of ships in the caldari lineup were odd. the kestrel was the only frig capable of fitting cruise missile launchers and the scorpion was (is) a ewf battleship. a torp raven could hit out to 80km and instapop frigates.

btt: most of the time you would be better served with whatever racial t2 frig you prefer, instead of missioning with a destroyer (which can be entertaining, but really nothing else). t1 destroyers were on the borderline of uselessness, were it not for the introduction of salvage.
t2 destroyers, aka interdictors, really serve only one purpose: carrying a bubble launcher. they are rather skill intensive, have roughly the same damage output and are senseless outside of pvp.
ppl have been requesting drone destroyers and nos destroyers over the years. but honestly, why? just for the sake of it?hm...

the drake is the odd man out really. it is fantastically good at what it does. it hits large and small targets, has a godly tank in pvp and pve, is normally cap independent, is easy to understand and has low skill requirements.

and don't bother asking yourself if passive shield tanking skills are usefull. the short answer is, even if you decide to go the armour route, those shield skills will help you more than you may think right now.

on to your caracal: it performs better with an active tank in pve, so try to fit accordingly (up-/ downgrade modules to taste):
[Caracal, active pve]

Assault Missile Launcher II
Assault Missile Launcher II
Assault Missile Launcher II
Assault Missile Launcher II
Assault Missile Launcher II

Medium C5-L Emergency Shield Overload I
Heat Dissipation Field II
Ballistic Deflection Field II
Invulnerability Field II
10MN Afterburner II

Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I

Hobgoblin II


if you want passive tanking on it:

[Caracal, passive pvp/pve]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II

Invulnerability Field II
Photon Scattering Field II
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
10MN Afterburner II

Assault Missile Launcher II
Assault Missile Launcher II
Assault Missile Launcher II
Assault Missile Launcher II
Assault Missile Launcher II

Rigs to taste, either fitting, missile buffing or shield extend/regeneration, or none if you expect to loose it

Hobgoblin II

hardeners should be adapted to the type of damage you expect


also, wrong forum section, it should be in general discussion or ships&fittings

-- Please like me, I'm an attention w*ore.

Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#6 - 2011-11-22 03:54:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Joe Risalo
Dr Dominence wrote:
stuff


Before you read this I'll start by saying, sorry for the length.

Actually, the Caracal is a good passive tank ship as well.

Now, when it comes to passive tanking, it's not an "effective" tank for all ships.

The Caracal, Gila, Drake, rattlesnake, and in some cases the ishtar, get away with a good passive tank because they have effective dps for their size while still having a good tank (in some cases, insane tank with rattler and ishtar).

The thing about passive tanking, if you try to fit it on anything but the recommended ships, then you're losing out on A LOT of dps, while at the same time still not getting that effective of a tank.

The thing about the suggested ships that are good passive tanks, they lack quite a bit of dps that is sustainable by another ship of their class.

Caracal is a good passive tank, but it's dps can be out done by other t1 cruisers.
Drake has quite a large tank for it's size, but is out dps'd by other bc's.
Gila is extremely difficult to fit.
Rattlesnake has, by far, the lowest dps of pirate ships. (like 500-600 dps in comparison to over 1k of other pirate bs's)
And if you fit the ishtar for passive tank, then you pretty much lose any dps buffs

If you try to fit other ships with passive tank, such as the raven, golem, scorpion, megathron, etc. etc.... Then you're losing a lot of dps buffs that can be applied with the use of an active tank.

You'll get less tank with a full passive tank on these ships then you'll get with a less slot usage active tank. Plus, you'll still be able to add damage mods onto these ships as well.


All in all, what i'm saying is in passive fitting any ship but the ones I listed, you're losing out on dps, while at the same time getting less potential tank than you could with an active tank.

Now, as far as your comments on missiles.

The drake is kinda difficult to use in level 2 missions because potentially of gates not being big enough, but also because heavy missiles are too large for lvl 2 missions.

A good way around that would simply be to fit standard assault launchers on it.

However, the drake is capable of doing quite a few lvl 4 missions. I know because i've done it before.

For the most part the drake is capable of fitting a sufficient enough tank to run lvl 4 missions, which is something most other bc's can't pull off.
The only issue drakes have with doing lvl 4's is that they're slow boats. Their dps is lack luster, but eventually can down the mission. T2 missiles help with this issue, and for the most part you don't need target painters to make the dps more sufficient like you do with torps and cruise missiles.

So it is capable of doing lvl 2 and 4 missions, but 2's require standard assault missiles, and 4's just require patience cause it's gonna take a while.

I've actually done missions in my drake that I couldn't do in my golem because the dps was too high, the golem was too slow, and with a large sig radius.

Case in point. "Smash the Supplier"
A very heavy dps mission against amarr with probably over 20 of each class of ship that all attack you at once.
I was able to kite the mission in a drake, and since the npcs have low tank on this mission, the drake was able to do quite well, but again, was pretty slow boating.

These are actually reasons why players feel the drake is a bit OP in pve, and others feel the drake is lack luster in pvp.

It can be significantly out dps'd by other bc's but can't be out tanked.

It gets pwn'd by other bc's in pvp if it tries to go head to head dps, but has a slight chance if it carries it's passive tank with some e-war into pvp.

However, the drake can tank most lvl 4 missions, but with lack luster dps, where as other bc's with more effective dps can't tank most lvl 4 missions, therefore is unable to most lvl 4 missions due to webs, damps, jams, and whatever else.

All in all, missile boats are the most effective pve ships in game, and generally not being surpassed in pve by any other ships because of missile versatility in range, damage type, and in some cases fof.

However, missile boats are a bit more lack luster in pvp because of flight time, but are balanced in a way to where if you're a proficient enough missile pilot, you can pvp. This is why the drake is so popular in pvp, because with tank and e-war, it can actually outlast other ships by slow boating their tank down until they're capped out.
stealth bombers are also quite popular because their dps is that of a battleship, but much cheaper, plus they can drop bombs, which can be devistating to a massed group.


Unforntunately for missile boaters, the naga on the test server doesn't appear to have missile capabilities like what was originally shown to the players of Eve. However, if they do give it back missile capability, it will become a very popular pvp missile boat.

Just food for thought.

1) Don't passive tank a ship that isn't meant to be passive tanked
2) The drake with a proper fit can do just about anything
3) Missiles are quite effective if used properly

Oh, and I don't know why there isn't a missile boat destroyer, but I would assume it has something to do with the balance.