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Request for Balance in Market PVP
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Grenn Putubi
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#21 - 2013-12-05 21:33:53 UTC
Would make Industry corps and players much more important. Get on their bad side and you may end up paying unreasonable rates to replace ships and modules in any system where they control the market. And having some indy players of your own would be necessary if you plan to take over an area since you may not be able to just move in and buy up all your enemy's market goods.
Anora Edier
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2013-12-06 17:53:21 UTC
+1

Like the idea of being able to corner a market via discounts and markups to keep other ppl from buying our stuff cheaply.
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#23 - 2013-12-06 18:41:51 UTC
some good ideas here. For empire trade hubs, being able to see the person that made the order is pretty huge, and will make competition in these places even a bit more cut throat.

Naturally you would only see the end prices available to you. While viewing the orders, the colors would show the the standing of the person with the order, it should not tell you automatically if you're seeing a discount of surcharge. Rather than color-coding the entire thing, the standing icon should just be next to the seller/buyer's name.

For balance purposes, making use of discount/surcharge functionality for ANY order should incur a fee that is roughly 2x the broker's fee for that order. This fee should be reduced through a new skill and should be entirely avoidable.

Should have the option to use derived/alliance standings or personal standings. Or even a new set of standings just for market usage.

However, I expect implementing all of this would be quite a bit of work, especially to avoid breaking lots of other things related to the market. Furthermore, a % markup/surcharge would not be a big deal in some situations. For some situations you're going to want a higher markup or a flat price increase over a % increase.

Buying from the specified order seems like a good thing to go hand in hand with all of this.

Minimum quantity on sell orders also seems pretty cool, although it probably won't be used very often.

Ultimately the reason I think this is worth pursuing is that it makes for interesting gameplay choices for both seller and buyer.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Grenn Putubi
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#24 - 2013-12-07 04:56:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Grenn Putubi
Batelle wrote:
some good ideas here. For empire trade hubs, being able to see the person that made the order is pretty huge, and will make competition in these places even a bit more cut throat.

Naturally you would only see the end prices available to you. While viewing the orders, the colors would show the the standing of the person with the order, it should not tell you automatically if you're seeing a discount of surcharge. Rather than color-coding the entire thing, the standing icon should just be next to the seller/buyer's name.

For balance purposes, making use of discount/surcharge functionality for ANY order should incur a fee that is roughly 2x the broker's fee for that order. This fee should be reduced through a new skill and should be entirely avoidable.

Should have the option to use derived/alliance standings or personal standings. Or even a new set of standings just for market usage.

However, I expect implementing all of this would be quite a bit of work, especially to avoid breaking lots of other things related to the market. Furthermore, a % markup/surcharge would not be a big deal in some situations. For some situations you're going to want a higher markup or a flat price increase over a % increase.

Buying from the specified order seems like a good thing to go hand in hand with all of this.

Minimum quantity on sell orders also seems pretty cool, although it probably won't be used very often.

Ultimately the reason I think this is worth pursuing is that it makes for interesting gameplay choices for both seller and buyer.


For simplicity's sake I wouldn't expect you to automatically see the altered prices in the market window, that would make the game have to reference every single player with an item posted to check standings and that's a lot of work that doesn't need to be done. The market window would only show you the neutral prices set for the orders. Once you click on 'Buy This' it would perform the standings check just on that player and then show adjusted prices in the popup window. This would mean only 1 standings check and that you wouldn't see discounts or markups till after you picked an order to buy from. If you see someone with an expensive order up but they're blue and you know they often give a discount it would be worth clicking on it just to see if they have a discount setup on that item. It would also mean that if you don't know someone has you set to Red and you just click through the window without checking you may end up paying a ridiculous markup without realizing it. And if you don't see the discount you want or you notice an unreasonable markup then just cancel the purchase and pick another order...if there's one available :)

I'd say use of Corp or Alliance standings is reasonable and should probably be mandatory on orders placed on behalf of your Corp if you setup the order to use the price adjustments.

Orders posted Anonymously by paying the extra broker fee would be unable to use standings price adjustments or there could be ways to figure out who posted the order. So for any order posted anonymously the price you see is always the price you get.

Don't forget that you could us a % above 100% for a mark up. You could put up the order for 20% above cost and provide a 10% for blues and a 20% discount for dark blues so you can sell to your friends at cost. But you could put Orange at a 200% markup and Red at a 500% so that you're really gouging the heck out of them if they're trying to buy your stuff. There are other ways to play with the numbers too, like posting the item at a huge markup and then only charging a small markup to enemies but a huge discount to friends. I agree that putting in a flat increase would be helpful at times, but EVE has a built in calculator and it's not too hard to do some math to figure out the % you need to use to get your desired effect. Just remember not to give anyone a 100% discount or you'll be giving your stuff away for free...unless of course you're so space rich that you can afford the charity :)
Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#25 - 2013-12-07 09:26:13 UTC
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
1. This is absolutely essential. Learn brevity.
2. Just as I wouldn't want increasing length cycles of weapon fire in combat PvP I wouldn't want it on my market PvP either, so no on increasing the order cool down beyond 5 mins.
3. Minimum buys on bulk sales sounds interesting.
4. CCP is looking into the buy order scam.
5. I played the market OP's suggeswow and you can see the seller's name. It does add complexity to market PvP but for anyone not able to play 10+ hours a day you will find people like me will crush you with this information. I had spreadsheets of my competitors game playing times and market strategies. This coupled with a lot of free time let me tank an entire market economy for three months. In the end only myself and two other players remained. Those two others had no life just like me. They were not using bots because I found a strategy for beating bots as well.
6. The ability to buy from any seller could be added but I promise based on experience with this mechanic in wow it will be little used.
7. Underselling to friends sounds interesting but it too will be little used and can be accomplished already anyways using a variety of methods.


Did you seriously just draw parallels between the economy of WoW and the economy of EVE?


Since the OP is asking for changes to EVE's economy that already exist in WOW yes. When you are considering a project it is a good idea to seek counsel from people that have experience with concepts as similar to your idea as possible. I will emphasis the word similar since obviously the condition doesn't exist in EVE so zero people in the world have the exact background to counsel on the OP's suggestions. My background is probably about as close as you are likely to find.


You do understand that the economy of EVE is many times more complex than WoW's economy yes?
Grenn Putubi
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#26 - 2013-12-08 02:44:25 UTC
Zvaarian the Red wrote:

You do understand that the economy of EVE is many times more complex than WoW's economy yes?


I think 'many times' is a bit of an understatement....

The market in EVE isn't just a place to buy and sell stuff to get equipment or earn isk, it's the lifeblood of the entire game. What would EVE be without the market fueling our endeavors?

That's part of the reason I proposed these changes in the first place. EVE has been dynamic in changing over the years to try to bring the best experience possible to the players, but the market hasn't changed since day 1. Balancing the rest of the game without balancing the market will never make EVE the best it can be.
Grandma Squirel
#27 - 2013-12-08 07:15:19 UTC
Grenn Putubi wrote:
Batelle wrote:
some good ideas here. For empire trade hubs, being able to see the person that made the order is pretty huge, and will make competition in these places even a bit more cut throat.

Naturally you would only see the end prices available to you. While viewing the orders, the colors would show the the standing of the person with the order, it should not tell you automatically if you're seeing a discount of surcharge. Rather than color-coding the entire thing, the standing icon should just be next to the seller/buyer's name.

For balance purposes, making use of discount/surcharge functionality for ANY order should incur a fee that is roughly 2x the broker's fee for that order. This fee should be reduced through a new skill and should be entirely avoidable.

Should have the option to use derived/alliance standings or personal standings. Or even a new set of standings just for market usage.

However, I expect implementing all of this would be quite a bit of work, especially to avoid breaking lots of other things related to the market. Furthermore, a % markup/surcharge would not be a big deal in some situations. For some situations you're going to want a higher markup or a flat price increase over a % increase.

Buying from the specified order seems like a good thing to go hand in hand with all of this.

Minimum quantity on sell orders also seems pretty cool, although it probably won't be used very often.

Ultimately the reason I think this is worth pursuing is that it makes for interesting gameplay choices for both seller and buyer.


For simplicity's sake I wouldn't expect you to automatically see the altered prices in the market window, that would make the game have to reference every single player with an item posted to check standings and that's a lot of work that doesn't need to be done. The market window would only show you the neutral prices set for the orders. Once you click on 'Buy This' it would perform the standings check just on that player and then show adjusted prices in the popup window. This would mean only 1 standings check and that you wouldn't see discounts or markups till after you picked an order to buy from. If you see someone with an expensive order up but they're blue and you know they often give a discount it would be worth clicking on it just to see if they have a discount setup on that item. It would also mean that if you don't know someone has you set to Red and you just click through the window without checking you may end up paying a ridiculous markup without realizing it. And if you don't see the discount you want or you notice an unreasonable markup then just cancel the purchase and pick another order...if there's one available :)

I'd say use of Corp or Alliance standings is reasonable and should probably be mandatory on orders placed on behalf of your Corp if you setup the order to use the price adjustments.

Orders posted Anonymously by paying the extra broker fee would be unable to use standings price adjustments or there could be ways to figure out who posted the order. So for any order posted anonymously the price you see is always the price you get.

Don't forget that you could us a % above 100% for a mark up. You could put up the order for 20% above cost and provide a 10% for blues and a 20% discount for dark blues so you can sell to your friends at cost. But you could put Orange at a 200% markup and Red at a 500% so that you're really gouging the heck out of them if they're trying to buy your stuff. There are other ways to play with the numbers too, like posting the item at a huge markup and then only charging a small markup to enemies but a huge discount to friends. I agree that putting in a flat increase would be helpful at times, but EVE has a built in calculator and it's not too hard to do some math to figure out the % you need to use to get your desired effect. Just remember not to give anyone a 100% discount or you'll be giving your stuff away for free...unless of course you're so space rich that you can afford the charity :)


Having the possibility for the price of an item to go UP from what is displayed in the market window, based on standings, would be heavily abused, and should be a non-starter. Bait and switch price scamming would be far worse then margin trade scamming. Discounts are fine, but the displayed price should never be less then what you will end up paying. If that means all displayed prices are the prices for reds, and everyone else, including neutrals, gets a discount when they actually try to buy, so be it.

That said, trying to lock out either buyers are sellers from a market would, 99% of the time, be very foolish. As a seller, you should be happy when your enemies buy from you and you profit from them. As a buyer, you want the market as well stocked as possible, and the more competition, the better the prices. Trying to control the market on either side is a crutch used by incompetent leadership, or leadership that is taking advantage of its members.
Sigras
Conglomo
#28 - 2013-12-08 11:27:45 UTC
Grenn Putubi wrote:
For simplicity's sake I wouldn't expect you to automatically see the altered prices in the market window, that would make the game have to reference every single player with an item posted to check standings and that's a lot of work that doesn't need to be done. The market window would only show you the neutral prices set for the orders. Once you click on 'Buy This' it would perform the standings check just on that player and then show adjusted prices in the popup window. This would mean only 1 standings check and that you wouldn't see discounts or markups till after you picked an order to buy from. If you see someone with an expensive order up but they're blue and you know they often give a discount it would be worth clicking on it just to see if they have a discount setup on that item. It would also mean that if you don't know someone has you set to Red and you just click through the window without checking you may end up paying a ridiculous markup without realizing it. And if you don't see the discount you want or you notice an unreasonable markup then just cancel the purchase and pick another order...if there's one available :)

I'd say use of Corp or Alliance standings is reasonable and should probably be mandatory on orders placed on behalf of your Corp if you setup the order to use the price adjustments.

Orders posted Anonymously by paying the extra broker fee would be unable to use standings price adjustments or there could be ways to figure out who posted the order. So for any order posted anonymously the price you see is always the price you get.

Don't forget that you could us a % above 100% for a mark up. You could put up the order for 20% above cost and provide a 10% for blues and a 20% discount for dark blues so you can sell to your friends at cost. But you could put Orange at a 200% markup and Red at a 500% so that you're really gouging the heck out of them if they're trying to buy your stuff. There are other ways to play with the numbers too, like posting the item at a huge markup and then only charging a small markup to enemies but a huge discount to friends. I agree that putting in a flat increase would be helpful at times, but EVE has a built in calculator and it's not too hard to do some math to figure out the % you need to use to get your desired effect. Just remember not to give anyone a 100% discount or you'll be giving your stuff away for free...unless of course you're so space rich that you can afford the charity :)

I think you're looking at this wrong. Eve's market is modeled after a commodities market not a farmers market. Picture the stock market, when you're buying or selling microsoft, you use a broker, you dont know or really care who the other party is; even the brokers dont know who the other party is. All they know is that theyre filling a market order, or setting a buy limit etc.

The other problem with your solution above is that the market that you see when you open the market isnt the one that actually exists. The price could change on you when you go to fill the order, not only is this completely counter intuitive and complicated, it's highly exploitable and just bad game design.

My solution which would do some of what you want but would be less exploitable would be to allow private alliance/corp orders. This would allow you to give a discount to your alliance and/or corp mates without making massive database calls every time someone opens the market.
Grenn Putubi
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#29 - 2013-12-09 00:43:21 UTC
Grandma Squirel wrote:
Having the possibility for the price of an item to go UP from what is displayed in the market window, based on standings, would be heavily abused, and should be a non-starter. Bait and switch price scamming would be far worse then margin trade scamming. Discounts are fine, but the displayed price should never be less then what you will end up paying. If that means all displayed prices are the prices for reds, and everyone else, including neutrals, gets a discount when they actually try to buy, so be it.

That said, trying to lock out either buyers are sellers from a market would, 99% of the time, be very foolish. As a seller, you should be happy when your enemies buy from you and you profit from them. As a buyer, you want the market as well stocked as possible, and the more competition, the better the prices. Trying to control the market on either side is a crutch used by incompetent leadership, or leadership that is taking advantage of its members.


The only way this could seriously be abused is if you set the entire game to Red standings. I'm sure there would be some people that would be perfectly willing to set every corp in the game to Red on their market alt just to abuse it, but it wouldn't last long. It doesn't take too much awareness to look at the purchase order popup window and check the price, not to mention the emergency popup that already exists in the game warning you that you're about to purchase something when the price is way above current market average for the item. And if you notice someone charging outrageous markups then just set that guy to Red so you know not to bother looking at his orders in the future and charge him markups on things in return.

The sort of market control this would allow may not seem like a great idea from the standpoint of an economist, but the economy is only a part of EVE. Being able to keep Reds from buying stuff in your territory stops them from being able to resupply using your goods and it keeps those goods on market and available to your friends. It stops them from being able to market blitz you in your own territory, buying up all the ships, modules, and ammo in the area so that your friends aren't able resupply with in a crisis. Sure you lose out on some profits in the short term, but it helps you maintain control of an area in the long term. And if they do try to buy you out of the area it's going to cost them a lot more and get you that much more funding to strike back with.

And there's nothing stopping you from having 2 orders up, 1 for your friends that is affected by standings, and another posted anonymously that isn't. That way you can keep stuff on market for your allies while still making money off your enemies and control the quantities they have access to as well.
Skalle Pande
Teknisk Forlag
#30 - 2013-12-09 11:51:13 UTC
Grandma Squirel wrote:
Having the possibility for the price of an item to go UP from what is displayed in the market window, based on standings, would be heavily abused, and should be a non-starter. Bait and switch price scamming would be far worse then margin trade scamming. Discounts are fine, but the displayed price should never be less then what you will end up paying. If that means all displayed prices are the prices for reds, and everyone else, including neutrals, gets a discount when they actually try to buy, so be it.

That said, trying to lock out either buyers are sellers from a market would, 99% of the time, be very foolish. As a seller, you should be happy when your enemies buy from you and you profit from them. As a buyer, you want the market as well stocked as possible, and the more competition, the better the prices. Trying to control the market on either side is a crutch used by incompetent leadership, or leadership that is taking advantage of its members.


I have to agree with this.

I was routed here from another thread (about Margin Trading skills and scams), and initially I found the OP very interesting - but a bit of afterthought tells me, that having prices change after you click to buy will make for a huuuuuge hassle for everybody trading in the market, and I suspect it will make people leave the market to return to an informal, invisible barter economy, which will be a catastrophy to the game.

Consider this: In Jita there is every day and for every resource, commodity, module, ship or whatever scores or hundreds of sell orders on the market. Right now, you go there and buy what you need, starting at the lowest listed price - or you don't, if you find it too expensive and decide either to wait and see or check Eve-Central to see if it is to be had cheaper elsewhere.

If listed prices could not be trusted you would have to check essentially ALL listed orders before buying, in order to find the one that for you was cheapest. You could spend hours doing that, instead of minutes, and would people like that? I think not. Besides, markets servers would have their traffic increased tenfold or more. This is not feasible, plain and simple.

Neither would it make it easier to control a regional market - enemy players could still place sell orders in "your" region, and you would bleed sorely trying to muscle them out, since they would of course likewise impose hefty markups towards you, while still underselling you towards neutrals.

If you want to trade with friends, it is easy to do so. Private contracts or direct trades are there for that purpose. Maybe a sort of intra-corp market facility could be thought up to make it easier to avoid selling to enemies. But Grandma Squirrel is right - you really should be happy to bleed you enemy whether for ISK or for trade goods.

The anonymity of the market makes it uncomplicated. But if you really want to know in advance who have put the orders on the market, you could perhaps, for a fee, ask the broker for the name of the owner of a specific order. As a special service. If it was a sell order, you could then elect to buy from this or that specific order, instead of just the lowest price. In the same vein, from the other thread, if it was a buy order, you should then be able to ask the broker, for a fee, whether the order is covered presently by the buyer's wallet - in order to have a small chance to spot a scam. But putting up an order, and then trying to "remote-control" who this order is available to and who not, that will bog everything down completely, and it is not what the market is for.
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#31 - 2013-12-09 15:36:37 UTC
Grandma Squirel wrote:

Having the possibility for the price of an item to go UP from what is displayed in the market window, based on standings, would be heavily abused, and should be a non-starter. Bait and switch price scamming would be far worse then margin trade scamming.


This.

Also, there should be no option to fill orders anonymously. Placing orders should also never be anonymous (it isn't now). Standings-based prices should only be for someone placing an order, and it should cost extra to use those.

However on the whole I feel standings-based prices would either run into the problem of being too configurable and thus very complicated and have a difficult interface, or otherwise be too simplistic, with a single or few settings available, that would then only be appropriate for some small orders. Honestly you would need to set a few templates depending on the nature of the order. Also, as having effective prices being displayed, it would require a lot of work for CCP to make sure the market interface isn't slowed down too much, as the whole thing could end up not being technically viable without more work than CCP would be willing to do.

Market statistics wouldn't really be affected I think, since they could just use the actual price the transaction was made at, after markups/discounts.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#32 - 2013-12-09 16:02:07 UTC
What I'd also like to see is an option to limit the range to a specific system. It's not of so much use in Trade Hubs, where there's only one real system where people sell things, but in NPC-00 regions where there are several "trade hubs" for different staging systems it helps. Currently you have to scroll sometimes through several dozens of lines until you find your own order (which you can fortunately highlight), but I would like to limit the range only to the system(s) where I have orders in.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Maldiro Selkurk
Radiation Sickness
#33 - 2013-12-10 22:52:35 UTC
Zvaarian the Red wrote:

You do understand that the economy of EVE is many times more complex than WoW's economy yes?


Yes.

Yawn,  I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.
Maldiro Selkurk
Radiation Sickness
#34 - 2013-12-10 23:12:56 UTC
Grenn Putubi wrote:
Zvaarian the Red wrote:

You do understand that the economy of EVE is many times more complex than WoW's economy yes?


I think 'many times' is a bit of an understatement....

The market in EVE isn't just a place to buy and sell stuff to get equipment or earn isk, it's the lifeblood of the entire game. What would EVE be without the market fueling our endeavors?
.


1. Re-read my post and tell me where i said that EVE and WOW have identical complexities. I said i knew what happens when you pair your ideas with a market place, I do not claim to know whether the impact will be identical to what happened in WOW only that it is likely going to be similar given my extensive experience with your ideas as they play out in WOW.

2. I know you really want this statement to be true but you can make anything in this game without a market place just as you can in most games that have a market place.

Yawn,  I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.
Stan Durden
Solar Forged
#35 - 2013-12-11 03:18:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Stan Durden
I like the OP ideas. I think they would have a lot of positive effects on the game.

I would think it would make more sense to just see the price you would be charged at first glance though, rather then having it update only after you select it.

For one thing, it would add more weight to how you project yourself in Eve. Being an intergalactic ******* may have consequences if people refuse to sell to you then you will need to build it yourself or at least require you to do all your trading through an alt. To reduce the alt workaround some threshold of value or items per day/week/month should be tracked and the information made public. So people could track and add new alts to standings. You could add a skill "back room deals" to increase the threshold of goods before needing to report the transactions.

I think this would help the overall immersion of social interaction in Eve. It would possibly make indy and market corps more critical to alliance function. I could see these changes encouraging more cooperation between indy and combat pilots. As it is now, often the combat pilots have the only bargaining chip, to allow or facilitate access to more dangerous space. But with some changes like this the ability for a combat corp to rely on some indy friends to sell them the ammo and gear they need could provide the indy guys with a little more weight in negotiations.

I have considered doing some trading on a few occasions, but it just seemed dry and uninteresting. Some of these changes would cause me to take a second look at the profession.
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