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Intercepters
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Beekeeper Bob
Beekeepers Anonymous
#61 - 2013-12-05 20:20:31 UTC
Sorry, the Interceptors are now the ship they should have been all along. And they are easily countered, unless you can't be bothered to defend yourself.

Hint: If you can't be bothered to defend yourself properly, or have the people in the area to do it for you, you're doing it wrong.

Another ceptor lands, tackles and webs the crow, insta-pop. Shocked


Signature removed - CCP Eterne
PotatoOverdose
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Sedition.
#62 - 2013-12-05 20:26:21 UTC  |  Edited by: PotatoOverdose
Tippia wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Curious... what exactly is the counter to a 30km point 4-5 km/s 5k ehp interceptor (e.g. the crow)?
A very slight jink to mess up their orbit.

Or you just shoot them from far away.

PotatoOverdose wrote:

Typical heavy neuts can't hit out that far.

Yeah, I could bring a 100mil heavy neut on a battleship every time I want to fight an interceptor gang, but lets be a weee bit more practical.

Trivially, I could bring a geddon as part of a small fleet comp, but the interceptors would be long gone or out of range before any of them are locked (assuming it's just 3-5 of them and they have no backup inbound). This would fall into the "can avoid all player interaction" category.

Tippia wrote:

Or you just shoot them from far away.

Doesn't work all that well due to a combination of speed, sig, and ~5k ehp. They'll either be out of range or out of tracking before your small gang does enough dps "from far away." And even if this wasn't true, they can trivially disengage, going back to:

PotatoOverdose wrote:
From where I'm standing, it looks like they can avoid all player interaction that would be unfavorable to them.


Rapier/falcon works if you've got the 4-5km/s interceptor at 30km either scrammed or neuted+longpointed. Otherwise, due to decloak delay and locking time, the interceptors will be able to trivially disengage. Which goes back to:


"I've tried to brainstorm an effective counter over the past few days, one that doesn't rely on the interceptor being a moron, with little success. Thoughts?"
PotatoOverdose
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Sedition.
#63 - 2013-12-05 20:27:56 UTC
Beekeeper Bob wrote:
And they are easily countered

Could I trouble you to list some counters? Genuine interest to see If I've missed anything obvious.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#64 - 2013-12-05 20:33:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Yeah, I could bring a 100mil heavy neut on a battleship every time I want to fight an interceptor gang, but lets be a weee bit more practical.
…or you could stop being scammed in Jita. Blink
If not, there are things out there that give you a bit more range.

Quote:
Doesn't work all that well due to a combination of speed, sig, and ~5k ehp. They'll either be out of range or out of tracking before your small gang does enough dps "from far away." And even if this wasn't true, they can trivially disengage.
It works because at a range, the speed and sig won't be enough, and 5k EHP is easy enough to punch through. After that, there's nothing left to disengage in.
Trishtan DeMore
There Is No Alternative
#65 - 2013-12-05 20:34:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Trishtan DeMore
Easy Counters:

Rapier
Huginn
Arazu (scrams)
Lachesis (scrams)
Hyena
Falcon
Rook
Curse
Pilgrim
Kitsune
Vagabond with a webifier + scram and little piloting skill

Anything small, fast with a scram. Once the MWD is turned off. the ceptor is screwed.

But yes, they can choose their engagements. and this is by design.

All you need to stop 10-15 ceptor gangs are 4 ppl.
2 Guardians, 1 huginn, 1 lachesis. GG
Paranoid Loyd
#66 - 2013-12-05 20:35:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Paranoid Loyd
PotatoOverdose wrote:

Could I trouble you to list some counters? Genuine interest to see If I've missed anything obvious.


Why wouldn't a few damps work?

Then of course there is falcon. Roll

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#67 - 2013-12-05 20:42:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
PotatoOverdose wrote:

Yeah, I could bring a 100mil heavy neut on a battleship every time I want to fight an interceptor gang, but lets be a weee bit more practical.


http://eve-central.com/home/quicklook.html?typeid=14170

58 mil. Small price to pay for saving a battleship.

But even a regular neut works, because if an interceptor is outside of neut range, it's outside of scram range, nothing preventing you from Micro Jump driving away....unless you don't have on a MJD, which everyone should in null sec on a battleship.

I've lost zero pve battleships to interceptors since Rubicon launch though I've been pointed 3 or 4 times.
PotatoOverdose
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Sedition.
#68 - 2013-12-05 20:54:35 UTC  |  Edited by: PotatoOverdose
Jenn aSide wrote:

58 mil. Small price to pay for saving a battleship.

But even a regular neut works, because if an incerceptor is outside of neut range, it's outside of scram range, nothing preventing you from Micro Jump driving away....

My market info may be a bit out of date. My apologies. Yes, a BS can disengage from a small inty gang. But my question is, can a small (3-5) non-inty gang actually force player interaction onto a small (3-5) inty gang?


Trishtan DeMore wrote:

2 Guardians, 1 huginn, 1 lachesis. GG

Won't catch a single interceptor, let alone impact a small gange of them, unless the interceptors want to get caught (or are morons).

As for your other suggestions:

Rapier - Locking delay, useless unless the inty has had one cycle of neuts/scrams already applied.
Huginn - shows up on dscan from a mile away
Arazu (scrams) - Locking delay, useless unless the inty has had one cycle of neuts/scrams already applied.
Lachesis (scrams) - shows up on dscan from a mile away
Hyena - Blapped by intys
Falcon - ECM doesnt actually help kill the intys. .
Rook - ECM doesnt actually help kill the intys.
Curse - shows up on dscan from a mile away
Pilgrim - Slow, locking delay, neuts are short range
Kitsune - ECM doesnt actually help kill the intys.

Vagabond with a webifier + scram and little piloting skill - maybe, but honestly, 5 or 6 crows would be able to kite the vagas far better than the vagas will be able to catch the intys.


Anything small, fast with a scram. -Intys are faster, and crows can hit out past 30k with light missiles.
Honestly, this bit seems to be more along the lines of: How to counter interceptors? MORE INTERCEPTORS!

PotatoOverdose wrote:
From where I'm standing, it looks like they can avoid all player interaction that would be unfavorable to them.


So basically, it comes down to this: If you want to disengage from a small gang of interceptors, it's easy. But it is virtually impossible to force player interaction on to a gang of interceptors that don't want it at that particular time.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#69 - 2013-12-05 20:57:20 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:

My market info may be a bit out of date. My apologies. Yes, a BS can disengage from a small inty gang. But my question is, can a small (3-5) non-inty gang actually force player interaction onto a small (3-5) inty gang?


That's the point of an inty gang I think, the ability to choose their fights at the cost of very low ehp, dps, shooting range and vulnerability to EWAR/neuting.

It's always been that way, Rubicon didn't change any of that.
PotatoOverdose
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Sedition.
#70 - 2013-12-05 21:02:01 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:

My market info may be a bit out of date. My apologies. Yes, a BS can disengage from a small inty gang. But my question is, can a small (3-5) non-inty gang actually force player interaction onto a small (3-5) inty gang?


That's the point of an inty gang I think, the ability to choose their fights at the cost of very low ehp, dps, shooting range and vulnerability to EWAR/neuting.

It's always been that way, Rubicon didn't change any of that.

Pre-rubicon there weren't **** loads of roaming inty gangs because bubbles could stop them and force player interaction upon the inty gangs.

The bubbles would give you a precious few seconds to get your huginn's webs on them or w/e.

Is it balanced, when a particular fleet comp can avoid all player interaction if it so chooses? Weren't un-scannable mission runners nerfed because they could avoid all player interaction? There are many example of such mechanics being removed from the game for being unbalanced.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#71 - 2013-12-05 21:04:06 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Is it balanced, when a particular fleet comp can avoid all player interaction if it so chooses?
Setting aside for a moment that no such fleet comp exists, yes, if that fleet comp is also ridiculously impotent in the interactions they do choose.
PotatoOverdose
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Sedition.
#72 - 2013-12-05 21:10:15 UTC  |  Edited by: PotatoOverdose
Tippia wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Is it balanced, when a particular fleet comp can avoid all player interaction if it so chooses?
Setting aside for a moment that no such fleet comp exists, yes, if that fleet comp is also ridiculously impotent in the interactions they do choose.

Fine, an extreme ability to avoid player interaction with great prejudice. Roll

Also, very impotent.

Anyway, I see now that I was not negligent in my attempts to find a way to kill a small inty fleet with another small group. It's just that such a comp doesn't exist. Barring MOAR INTERCEPTORS of course. P

Thanks for all the responses.
Cebraio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#73 - 2013-12-05 22:49:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Cebraio
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Tippia wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Is it balanced, when a particular fleet comp can avoid all player interaction if it so chooses?
Setting aside for a moment that no such fleet comp exists, yes, if that fleet comp is also ridiculously impotent in the interactions they do choose.

Fine, an extreme ability to avoid player interaction with great prejudice. Roll

Also, very impotent.

Anyway, I see now that I was not negligent in my attempts to find a way to kill a small inty fleet with another small group. It's just that such a comp doesn't exist. Barring MOAR INTERCEPTORS of course. P

Thanks for all the responses.

Bombers ...They'll probably just warp off before the bombs explode.

You can also try smartbombing battleships (a group of them warping in on the inties) but they could easily run out of blast range, unless they are scrammed.

Edit: Nice video!
Cebraio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#74 - 2013-12-05 23:02:45 UTC
Tydeth Gilitae wrote:
Bowbndr wrote:
But CCP claims they were rebalancing the interceptors, but the Blockade runners, a ship specifically designed to (by its own description) get through gate camps only gets a plus 1 to warp strength while the new interceptors are totally immune. It would seem to me that the ship actually built to get through warp bubbles should be nullified and sure the interceptors should get a bonus to warp strength, but not nullification.

I submit that this is an intentional part of the ccp plan to kill industry in eve because of one simple fact. When was the last time you saw a fleet of blockade runners flying around tiring to kill anyone?


Cebraio, he got Deep Space Transports (the T2 Indy that cannot cloak) mixed up with Blockade Runners.

Blockade Runners can cloak, but a point = they're screwed. Granted, since they don't need to lock if used for hauling, they can plonk on one or two WCS in their lows and be fine. They work well for running blockades (camps) in High/Low/Null and don't need anything.

DSTs are the ones that could potentially use the Nullifier, as they're the ones meant for Null and Wormholes judging by their description. The questions are what if anything do they give up to gain Nulli, and what effect would giving DST Nulli have on Null supply chains. Unfortunately, I do not know enough about current Null transport situations to really give the topic any justice in discussion.

Regarding interceptors, giving them Nulli was a good idea, as they're supposed to be able to zip around really quickly and intercept. This class of ship was the best T2 to give Nulli to. The only other ship with Nulli are T3, which are supposed to be after full rebalance a modular system that can pick different aspects of T2 and mix them together, creating a versatile jack of all trades (but master of none). T3 being the only Nullified class was not fitting to that stated design goal.


DST are not used in 0.0 because they are easily caught. So a nullifying DST could actually improve their usefulness. Still, I bet many people will stick to BRs because they align faster and can warp cloaked. It's better not to be seen at all than to be resistant to warp disruption. Even if you're in a bubble with a BR this is more important than a finite number of warp core stabs. A BR may MWD and cloak out of the bubble. A nullified DST will just die to a small gang or a focused HIC.
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#75 - 2013-12-05 23:35:05 UTC
Bowbndr wrote:
Ok I was told that this discussion needed to be here so here it goes.

While I understand the revamp making ships allign and warp per their size was reasonable, at what price did empowering the interceptors to out match everything in the game do? Admitadly as an Indy toon I understand that I may be missing something here, but we used to see roving gangs that had multiple ship types and actuallywhe slightly balanced to the home team, made for good null sec fights. Now with ccp essentially buffing interceptors so much you just see mass amounts of interceptors killing everything from the loan ratter to fleets of battle cruisers and battleships.

Now last time I plaster this the pvpers jumped on me about my recent freighter loss, but if you actually look at it the intercepted buff , while playing a part in it was insignificant in the grand scheme. So before the rangers get ahold and get this thread shut down, I ask a simple question. What was the point of "balancing" the ships of eve if you balanced one class so far ahead that it kills all other aspects of the game.

I would really like to hear ccp's take on this before the moderators just shut this thread down aswell.


null sec carebear lol, wants null to be safe.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#76 - 2013-12-05 23:44:44 UTC
Proletariat Tingtango wrote:
I love interceptors. I fly them a lot, the changes make my specific role, catching you, easier. It was already pretty easy and honestly before or after the change if your dumb ass gets caught by a Crow or Stiletto or something, you were dead meat when backup arrived.

DPS didn't get buffed or anything, and I still explode the moment my transversal and angular velocity hit your sweet spot. Drones still own me. Bombers still own me. Actually if you can catch me or I make the mistake of engaging you solo and you have backup, I've thrown away a perfectly good interceptor.

We're really easy to kill when we engage. _When_ we engage. Of course we get to pick our fights but frankly if you're in a ship that can track me, and you see me aggressed on grid, its your fault for not locking and popping.


Spot on. Couldn't have said it better myself. Plus ehp on interceptors was nerfed slightly to make an already weak ship weaker in return for the immunity to bubbles. Ceptors are paper thin, as for nerfing the crow everyone complains that caldari ships are crap, then as soon as we get a good one people start calling for the nerf bat.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...