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[Rubicon 1.1] Sisters of EVE Battleship

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Sniper Smith
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#621 - 2013-12-04 22:01:05 UTC
I'd like to see even more than a 100% Range bonus like Rise suggested.. Maybe 200% or so.. Or another idea would be to make the Drone Damage amount Fixed, and let Range be tied to Gal BS Skill.. say 50% Per level ?

I like having more stats tied Skills, rather than hull bonuses.. I don't like ships where it's of no benefit at all to train the hull skill above 1 because all the practical use comes from hull bonus..


Second.. doing the math, I'd like to see the LP Cost looked at some more.. I understand it's the same markup you used for the Cruiser and Frig, but given how big this one is, it's too much. You are looking at ~2.5Bil for the Hull Alone. I'd like to see that come down to more like ~1.5, still more expensive than current Pirate hulls, but not stupidly expensive. Another option could be to adjust the Concord to SOE exchange rate.. Allowing incursion runners to make up the difference.. Though, and I say this as an Incursion runner myself, I think we have enough isk as it is, we don't need more.. That or find more ways to get Concord LP so we can spread the wealth.. But this is another topic..
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#622 - 2013-12-04 22:03:21 UTC
BeanBagKing wrote:
Let me try putting this another way...

Quote:

Ship Class | Avg Price | 2,200,000,000
Dread | 2,360,500,000 | 0.93
Carrier | 1,177,500,000 | 1.87
Freighter | 1,244,500,000 | 1.77
Rorqual | 2,347,000,000 | 0.94
Pirate BS | 711,750,000 | 3.09
Navy BS | 350,500,000 | 6.28
Marauder | 1,127,250,000 | 1.95
Black Ops | 757,500,000 | 2.9



These are averages of a couple ship classes. The number on the far right is the guesstimated cost of the SoE battleship divided by the average cost of that hull class. So a ratio of 3 would mean that the SOE was 3 times as expensive as that ship class. So we can see a few things here.

We have a new Pirate BS that costs..
- Nearly as much as a dread
- Almost twice as expensive as a carrier
- 3 times as expensive as the rest of the pirate battleships
- Twice as expensive as the most expensive T2 BS hull (Marauder)
- 3 times as expensive as Black Ops ships

I'm hoping this illustrates why the players are complaining about the bonuses and noting the disconnect between price and performance. I don't think anyone expects this to be twice as good as a carrier, or three times as good as the other faction BS's. I can't help but feel there's a discrepancy here though.

This analysis makes a pretty big assumption regarding isk/lp return and if the negative reactions are justified that level of return isn't likely.
Ish Eistiras
Shrubbery Acquisitions
Blohm and Voss Shipyards Alliance
#623 - 2013-12-04 22:04:36 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
Tom-A-Hawk wrote:
Bad and boring design, change those scanning and data bonuses, they're useless


Agreed make the ship an escort carrier designed to compliment the srat and astrios.

Currently the idea I like the most, unique flavor (potentially) in the BS range and a good "my first carrier" there are all ready mini dreads in the new mauraders, so a carrier lite would fit in.
XvXTeacherVxV
Be Nice Inc.
Prismatic Legion
#624 - 2013-12-04 22:10:40 UTC  |  Edited by: XvXTeacherVxV
Thaddeus Eggeras wrote:
First off, I highly doubt it is going to cost 2bil ISK. Might at first, but in a month or so it will come down

Second, you aren't getting a covert cloak, so let it rest, and make your bets. This will be used in high sec, and WHs for sure, and IF it keeps it's repair bonus I bet 0.0 too. I rather see it get a cloak bonus like Black ops and be able to jump through convert cynos and regular cynos. Make it more useful, and more in line with exploring but also good for some PvP actions. But like I have stated before, I doubt CCP cares much what I think or most of us think. So either suck it up and don't get the ship or be creative and find useful acts for it.


The Stratios is 450m right now and its blueprint is 1/5 the price of this one. They will probably be almost 3b until the price comes down to a little less than 2b. I agree with most of the other posters here, this doesn't seem even close to worth that price if they aren't covert ops capable but if they were, 2b wouldn't seem so steep. Not that they necessarily should be, but they should be worth whatever they're going to cost.

The analyzer bonuses are pretty meh but fine if they aren't included in place of other actually useful bonuses. Logi bonus is good, but I agree that a range bonus would be appropriate too.
Can you see the rapier?: http://imgur.com/aFelCpv,GH6lqDE
Scuzzy Logic
Space Spuds
#625 - 2013-12-04 22:14:55 UTC
One more thing: Why does the concept art call for RADAR sensor arays and M F Radar antennas when the ship has Magnetometric sensors...
BeanBagKing
The Order of Atlas
#626 - 2013-12-04 22:19:42 UTC
Quote:
]
This analysis makes a pretty big assumption regarding isk/lp return and if the negative reactions are justified that level of return isn't likely.

Maybe, maybe not. Just about every estimate Ive seen points to it being in the 2bil plus range though. Lacking anything else to go on and no statement from CCP on the intended price point, this is all I have. If you have a more detailed analysis on the probable price though I'd like to hear it.
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#627 - 2013-12-04 22:19:54 UTC
Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci wrote:
The Spod wrote:


One such sensible elusion bonus: instant MJD jump upon activation. This would allow a MJD-warp to evade interception on most gate camps. Gate decloak - MJD - align and warp, with 3 inertia stabs and 3 warp stabs. Counterable, but reliable enough to evade most gate parties.

I like that idea a lot, actually- instant MJD, but no cloak.... hmmm.


I like this too. The bonuses could be:

90% reduction in MJD activation time
500% to cloaked velocity
No targeting delay after decloaking

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#628 - 2013-12-04 22:20:15 UTC
XvXTeacherVxV wrote:
Thaddeus Eggeras wrote:
First off, I highly doubt it is going to cost 2bil ISK. Might at first, but in a month or so it will come down

Second, you aren't getting a covert cloak, so let it rest, and make your bets. This will be used in high sec, and WHs for sure, and IF it keeps it's repair bonus I bet 0.0 too. I rather see it get a cloak bonus like Black ops and be able to jump through convert cynos and regular cynos. Make it more useful, and more in line with exploring but also good for some PvP actions. But like I have stated before, I doubt CCP cares much what I think or most of us think. So either suck it up and don't get the ship or be creative and find useful acts for it.


The Stratios is 450m right now and it's blueprint is 1/5 the price of this one. They will probably be almost 3b until the price comes down to a little less than 2b. I agree with most of the other posters here, this doesn't seem even close to worth that price if they aren't covert ops capable but if they were, 2b wouldn't seem so steep. Not that they necessarily should be, but they should be worth whatever they're going to cost.

The analyzer bonuses are pretty meh but fine if they aren't included in place of other actually useful bonuses. Logi bonus is good, but I agree that a range bonus would be appropriate too.

2 things:
1, I'm not convinced the stratios has reached it's leveled price. Give it a few months for everyone who is interested to get on board and experiment and see where it stands the.
2. There is no reason that isk:LP will remain constant between the ships. Nothing short of allowing covert ops on the Nestor would probably have it see the same return that the stratios has simply because of the draw of that utility.

We're not dealing with a set of constants. Rather we're looking at where demand will balance out against the cost of supply. If the ship doesn't stack up and there are no special components propping up the price, I'd think it very unlikely that we'd see the price scale linearly with the LP store cost compared to a stratios.
Scuzzy Logic
Space Spuds
#629 - 2013-12-04 22:21:35 UTC
Thaddeus Eggeras wrote:
First off, I highly doubt it is going to cost 2bil ISK. Might at first, but in a month or so it will come down

Second, you aren't getting a covert cloak, so let it rest, and make your bets. This will be used in high sec, and WHs for sure, and IF it keeps it's repair bonus I bet 0.0 too. I rather see it get a cloak bonus like Black ops and be able to jump through convert cynos and regular cynos. Make it more useful, and more in line with exploring but also good for some PvP actions. But like I have stated before, I doubt CCP cares much what I think or most of us think. So either suck it up and don't get the ship or be creative and find useful acts for it.


You don't seem to Understand that even using the Pre-Ship-returns on SoE probes and launchers (using July data from EVE-Central) the ship would come to 1.67 Billion.

Unless CCP reduces the price or amps up LP distribution this thing will never, ever be worth its cost.
Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#630 - 2013-12-04 22:25:13 UTC
Ish Eistiras wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:
Tom-A-Hawk wrote:
Bad and boring design, change those scanning and data bonuses, they're useless


Agreed make the ship an escort carrier designed to compliment the srat and astrios.

Currently the idea I like the most, unique flavor (potentially) in the BS range and a good "my first carrier" there are all ready mini dreads in the new mauraders, so a carrier lite would fit in.

So maybe something like this?

Nestor

Amarr BS bonus:
4% bonus to armor resists per level

Gallente BS bonus:
+1 active drone per level

Role Bonuses:
50% bonus to drone optimal range, tracking speed and velocity
50% bonus to large energy turret optimal range
150% bonus to Remote Armor Repair range
50% bonus to Remote Armor Repair effectiveness

Slot Layout: 6H, 6M, 7L; 4 Turrets, 0 Launchers

Drone Bandwidth//Bay:
200mbit/sec//500m3

Has a ship maintenance bay about the size of 2 cruisers, maybe? Nothing big, but enough to fit a couple ships.

Just a quick idea.

"A City made of Dreams is built in heaven"
Elfi Wolfe
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#631 - 2013-12-04 22:26:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Elfi Wolfe
I would like to see a ship bonus that is new, and tied to the new Sisters engine. On the smaller ships it did not interfere with the cloaking.

Suggestions:
Bonus to MJD spool up time. 40 to 80% less time to spool up. Maybe with a different visual effect of the ring interacting with the MJD visual effect.

Stargate or wormhole interaction. Takes jump fuel and you end up 12 to 250 km from stargate at other side. (bad idea?)

Something to do with shuttle bay. Um launch 1 fighter? Launch more drones? Able to park ship and fly off in a special remote control shuttle. Ie your pod is on ship could use shuttle to scout ahead. Game design when shuttle is destroyed no pod and you appear back at Nestor.

Allows a module that only works on the nestor to allow faster warp. (meah)

Bonus to MWD top speed. Visual effect of the ring flaring up with MWD active.

Allow ship to jump without a cyno beacon. (To strong a bonus?)

Allow ship to form a wormhole with module. Wormhole can only take 1 ship.

Stabilize a MJD vs scram. Um each scram adds 5 secs to spool up time but MJD will still activate.
Stabilize engines vs scram and web. Each scram points adds to time to warp. Webs are only 30 to 70% effictive.

"Please point to the place on the doll where the carebear touched you."
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#632 - 2013-12-04 22:27:47 UTC
BeanBagKing wrote:
Quote:
]
This analysis makes a pretty big assumption regarding isk/lp return and if the negative reactions are justified that level of return isn't likely.

Maybe, maybe not. Just about every estimate Ive seen points to it being in the 2bil plus range though. Lacking anything else to go on and no statement from CCP on the intended price point, this is all I have. If you have a more detailed analysis on the probable price though I'd like to hear it.

Unfortunately that analysis can't happen until after the release of the ship and we see where things end up. That said, look at ships which are currently obtained via LP stores and make comparisons for LP/isk at jita prices. A Bhaalgorn, Rattlesnake and Vindicator aren't the same price. I could be wrong, but I would think that factors external to LP cost would account for the differences in market value.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#633 - 2013-12-04 22:27:56 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
In the posts for the Stratios and Astero I think I mentioned that one of the designs we are trying to emulate is the Gnosis. Ships capable of doing many things but being the absolute best for few.


How often do Gnoses actually get used, though? If you make a hard-to-get, expensive ship that's ok at a bunch of things, but doesn't have any one thing it excels at, you're just going to see people spend less money on three or four cheaper ships that each excel at their role.

Drones? Use a Domi.

Logi? Use a Guardian or Oneiros.

Exploration? Use a CovOps.

Cheaper, easier to get, better at their job.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#634 - 2013-12-04 22:29:40 UTC
Scuzzy Logic wrote:
Thaddeus Eggeras wrote:
First off, I highly doubt it is going to cost 2bil ISK. Might at first, but in a month or so it will come down

Second, you aren't getting a covert cloak, so let it rest, and make your bets. This will be used in high sec, and WHs for sure, and IF it keeps it's repair bonus I bet 0.0 too. I rather see it get a cloak bonus like Black ops and be able to jump through convert cynos and regular cynos. Make it more useful, and more in line with exploring but also good for some PvP actions. But like I have stated before, I doubt CCP cares much what I think or most of us think. So either suck it up and don't get the ship or be creative and find useful acts for it.


You don't seem to Understand that even using the Pre-Ship-returns on SoE probes and launchers (using July data from EVE-Central) the ship would come to 1.67 Billion.

Unless CCP reduces the price or amps up LP distribution this thing will never, ever be worth its cost.

SOE LP/isk isn't a constant either. It has and will continue to depend on the item.
Gob Lox
Nexus Cartel
#635 - 2013-12-04 22:34:08 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
We all agreed that keeping the covert cloak theme was not going to work for the battleship.


I felt such disappointment when I came across this line. The feeling that came across me was similar to the same feeling you have after being ganked in something really expensive.

I was really hoping for a covert cloaky BS
Thaddeus Eggeras
Urkrathos Corp
#636 - 2013-12-04 22:34:25 UTC
If there is a demand then it will be worth it. And IF CCP fixes the bonuses there will be a demand. People will buy and sell it, and if it falls off, then at some point CCP will need to look to it again.

I do think it should cost a bit less LP, same with the other 2 SoE ships, but as it can be bought in high sec it should cost more then the other faction pirate ships.
Ish Eistiras
Shrubbery Acquisitions
Blohm and Voss Shipyards Alliance
#637 - 2013-12-04 22:37:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Ish Eistiras
Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci wrote:
Ish Eistiras wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:
Tom-A-Hawk wrote:
Bad and boring design, change those scanning and data bonuses, they're useless


Agreed make the ship an escort carrier designed to compliment the srat and astrios.

Currently the idea I like the most, unique flavor (potentially) in the BS range and a good "my first carrier" there are all ready mini dreads in the new mauraders, so a carrier lite would fit in.

So maybe something like this?

Nestor

Amarr BS bonus:
4% bonus to armor resists per level

Gallente BS bonus:
+1 active drone per level

Role Bonuses:
50% bonus to drone optimal range, tracking speed and velocity
50% bonus to large energy turret optimal range
150% bonus to Remote Armor Repair range
50% bonus to Remote Armor Repair effectiveness
Can not field sentry drones

Slot Layout: 5H, 6M, 8L; 0 Turrets, 0 Launchers

Drone Bandwidth//Bay:
250mbit/sec//1000m3

Has a ship maintenance bay about the size of 2 cruisers, maybe? Nothing big, but enough to fit a couple ships.

Just a quick idea.

This would serve to make the ship fun, still very expensive gank bait for what it is, but fun. More then just the drone control bonus though, I feel it should be set up to specifically prevent/inhibit the use of sentry drones in favor of heavy drones. Makes it still useful in pvp/pve without the drone assist volley potential of sentry (or at least lesser degree).
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#638 - 2013-12-04 22:38:07 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

This analysis makes a pretty big assumption regarding isk/lp return and if the negative reactions are justified that level of return isn't likely.


Not really, I can make 4000isk per LP is I slow sell stratio BPCs, the price of Nestor (after the first rush anyway) is going to be pegged to the stratios/aster/prob price which ever is highest because the people farming the LP will hit the item with the highest return.

Right now a Stratios BPC easily pulls 3000isk/LP so expecting a 2bil BPC price isn't much of an assumption. That will drift down by spring of course, but the price for the SOE cruisers has been pretty steady of late.
Grenn Putubi
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#639 - 2013-12-04 22:44:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Grenn Putubi
NESTOR

Amarr Battleship Bonuses:
4% Armor resistances per level

Gallente Battleship Bonuses:
10% drone damage and hitpoints per level

Role bonuses:
100% bonus to remote repair range
50% Increase to Drone velocity
98% reduction in powergrid costs for Drone Control Units
50% increased strength for scan probes

Able to fit Drone Control Units

Slot layout: 7H, 6M, 6L; 5 turrets, 0 launchers
Fittings: 11250 PWG, 680 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull): 8900 / 9950 / 9900
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap/s) : 6200 / 1044 / 5.9
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 92 / .18 / 56000000 / 13.97
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 200 / 700
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 75km / 85 / 7
Sensor strength: 24 Magnetometric
Signature radius: 465
Cargo Capacity: 700
Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#640 - 2013-12-04 22:45:42 UTC
Grenn Putubi wrote:
NESTOR

Amarr Battleship Bonuses:
4% Armor resistances per level

Gallente Battleship Bonuses:
10% drone damage and hitpoints per level

Role bonuses:
100% bonus to remote repair range
50% Increase to Drone velocity
98% reduction in powergrid costs for Drone Control Units
50% increased strength for scan probes

Able to fit Drone Control Units

Slot layout: 7H, 6M, 6L; 5 turrets, 0 launchers
Fittings: 11250 PWG, 680 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull): 8900 / 9950 / 9900
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap/s) : 6200 / 1044 / 5.9
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 92 / .18 / 56000000 / 13.97
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 250 / 750
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 75km / 85 / 7
Sensor strength: 24 Magnetometric
Signature radius: 465
Cargo Capacity: 700

hmm.. that's a lot like my idea, but it has a lot more potential DPS.

"A City made of Dreams is built in heaven"