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Dev Blog: Building a Balanced Universe

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Author
Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#61 - 2013-12-03 17:35:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Abdiel Kavash
I am slightly confused. You started the devblog by asserting that the old system was bad, because it put clusters of connected systems on one node (and intra-node jumps are more expensive than inter-node jumps). Yet you end up with a system that puts even bigger clusters of connected systems on the same node? From the pictures it looks like instead of constellations, now huge chunks of regions share the same node. Wouldn't that lead to even more intra-node jumps?

I think that a way more optimal solution would be a kind of checkerboard-style distribution, where systems on one node are geographically close together (to save the poor trio of ratters in Solitude), but not directly connected to other systems on the same node. Several nodes could therefore share the load from people jumping in and out of a big fleet battle, and the majority of jumps would be inter-node jumps.

As others have already said, the new allocation could lead to even higher load being put on the nodes in battles, as it seems now that any sort of reinforcements or auxiliary fights will directly contribute to the load of the fleet fight node itself. And this will also happen with a pre-reinforced node - even if you take the contested system out of the picture, all the surrounding area still shares the same node. Whereas in the old distribution, it is rare to even find a system whose direct neighbors are all on the same node.
Kale Freeman
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#62 - 2013-12-03 17:36:30 UTC
Given that you know that inter node jumps are the best because you split the work between two nodes, wouldn't it be better to work with node pairs. Apply the exact same algorithm to break down all the systems into equal size groups, but then right at the end take the group of systems and split them across a pair of nodes so as to create as many inter node jumps as possible.
Borachon
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#63 - 2013-12-03 17:40:06 UTC
CCP Prism, how much history of node usage (e.g. in terms of days) is taken into account in the mapping to smooth out its decisions? For example, if there happens to be no major timers one day and an alliance doesn't have nearly as many people in its staging, and everyone logs in the next day, will the premapper still have the historical information about recent load in the system to have mapped it effectively? Also, how does information like reinforcement timers factor into these decisions - does the mapper get skewed directly by these timers, or do you generally hope it's handled by the recent load history of nodes and explicit node reinforcement requests from player?

In addition, now that you have a more systematic (heh) load balancing strategy in place, why have static rules that separate null and empire? If there are large chunks of null and lowsec that almost never have high loads, placing those into the same node might actually be a good thing, freeing up nodes for other systems.

I guess, the real question is what exactly are you trying to optimize, because if you don't know what you're really trying to optimize, it's hard to know if you're heading in the right direction.
Forlorn Wongraven
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#64 - 2013-12-03 17:40:25 UTC
GeeShizzle MacCloud wrote:
they dont have to deal with the load bearing requirements of hundreds of fighter bombers so im sure they'll be fine Prism!

Pretty sure those 3000 sentries from 600 Domis do not create server load. Twisted

Winner ATXI , 3rd place ATXII, winner ATXIII, 2nd ATXIV - follow me on twitter: @ForlornW

Jessica Danikov
Network Danikov
#65 - 2013-12-03 17:44:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Jessica Danikov
Kale Freeman wrote:
Given that you know that inter node jumps are the best because you split the work between two nodes, wouldn't it be better to work with node pairs. Apply the exact same algorithm to break down all the systems into equal size groups, but then right at the end take the group of systems and split them across a pair of nodes so as to create as many inter node jumps as possible.


That's starting to sound like a Colour problem. Ultimately you want to maximise the number of local nodes without them touching themselves, while minimising the global distribution of any individual colour. This does the best to maximise the high-performance transitions while keeping TiDi relatively local to its cause. Made that much more complex by the fact you also want to load-balance the systems onto nodes as well...
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#66 - 2013-12-03 17:49:21 UTC
thanks for giving so much technical background, i love this kind of info

but instead of rewriting the system to safe 3 ratters in solitude from heavy tidi by annoying those already suffering from it with even more tidi, you should be much more willing to just move those three dudes to another node by shutting their system down for like a minute or so when tidi lasts more than 5 minutes
Katrina Bekers
A Blessed Bean
Pandemic Horde
#67 - 2013-12-03 17:50:39 UTC
Forlorn Wongraven wrote:
GeeShizzle MacCloud wrote:
they dont have to deal with the load bearing requirements of hundreds of fighter bombers so im sure they'll be fine Prism!

Pretty sure those 3000 sentries from 600 Domis do not create server load. Twisted


Well, for one, Dogma doesn't need to calculate anything about the movement of sentries, and notifications about their movements to any of the clients.

While FBs require AI (ok, you can laugh), physics and position notifications to everyone in grid.

I'd say a totally different workload.

<< THE RABBLE BRIGADE >>

Everlast Darkheart
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#68 - 2013-12-03 17:50:40 UTC
Good read! thanks for enlightening us! Lets hope it works out!
Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#69 - 2013-12-03 17:54:40 UTC
Katrina Bekers wrote:
Well, for one, Dogma doesn't need to calculate anything about the movement of sentries, and notifications about their movements to any of the clients.

I am not exactly sure why would you say that. Perhaps you think that sentries don't move? They do.
GeeShizzle MacCloud
#70 - 2013-12-03 17:55:21 UTC
Jessica Danikov wrote:
Kale Freeman wrote:
Given that you know that inter node jumps are the best because you split the work between two nodes, wouldn't it be better to work with node pairs. Apply the exact same algorithm to break down all the systems into equal size groups, but then right at the end take the group of systems and split them across a pair of nodes so as to create as many inter node jumps as possible.


That's starting to sound like a Colour problem. Ultimately you want to maximise the number of local nodes without them touching themselves, while minimising the global distribution of any individual colour. This does the best to maximise the high-performance transitions while keeping TiDi relatively local to its cause.


from what i can understand i think he means the opposite... cut up the load balancing down to the final level then split the final level across 2 nodes ensuring maximum contact surface between the 2 servers.

instead of creating a line between the localised cluster of systems you create a chessboard style distribution to maximise the amount of server to server jumps rather than intra server jumps (that are considered inferior to discrete server to server jumps)

you have the localisation at a cluster wide scale, then when u get to the singular node scale it switches to a high diffusion model. the problem would be how to keep the remapping from morphing the diffused local distribution from becoming localised through time.
Oh Takashawa
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#71 - 2013-12-03 17:55:50 UTC
Katrina Bekers wrote:
Forlorn Wongraven wrote:
GeeShizzle MacCloud wrote:
they dont have to deal with the load bearing requirements of hundreds of fighter bombers so im sure they'll be fine Prism!

Pretty sure those 3000 sentries from 600 Domis do not create server load. Twisted


Well, for one, Dogma doesn't need to calculate anything about the movement of sentries, and notifications about their movements to any of the clients.

While FBs require AI (ok, you can laugh), physics and position notifications to everyone in grid.

I'd say a totally different workload.

That's simply not true. I can pull up an overview with sentries on it, and they move, at 1m/s. That means the server has to update me constantly with the positions of all those sentries, same as it does with fighterbombers or any other drone. Fighterbombers, load-wise and on-grid, aren't really any different from warrior IIs. The difference only really pops in when you get them following you in warp, but on grid, they function essentially the same as drones. They're bigger, sure, but they don't have special AI that drone's don't have, and they don't create huge amounts of load that sentries or any other kind of drone don't.
Setsune Rin
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#72 - 2013-12-03 17:56:23 UTC
when was this fixed deployed or is it still in the pipeline to release?

Highfield
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#73 - 2013-12-03 17:58:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Highfield
Setsune Rin wrote:
when was this fixed deployed or is it still in the pipeline to release?



Devblog states tomorrow (december 4th) as deployment date. Set a long skill ;)



Talking about sentries as one of the issues for this: would setting sentry speed to 0 (or immobile or w/e), taking their motion out of the data flow, solve part of the problem cause by the massive use of them?
Katrina Bekers
A Blessed Bean
Pandemic Horde
#74 - 2013-12-03 18:03:22 UTC
All nice and cute.

But I was expecting some more ~words~ about the dynamic load balancing and proxying we were discussing at the Operations roundtable during FF2013. Cry

That will solve most of these problems. And itself it's a problem solved oh-so-many-times in the past. There's a ton of literature on dynamic connection management and I'm pretty sure most of that could be applied to EVE, without letting many loopholes (as in "I'll disconnect during connection re-establishment so I can disappear safely") slip thru the cracks.

Still, my hat is tipped to the ingenuity of the solutions designed. Cool

<< THE RABBLE BRIGADE >>

Tex Bloodhunter
SciFiCentral Explorations Inc.
#75 - 2013-12-03 18:06:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Tex Bloodhunter
Prism X you are such a nerd. Good thing I know what you are talking about ;)

By the way: What about packing up and moving overloaded solar systems during runtime to a set of reserved nodes? I know this is hard to code but it can be done.
Katrina Bekers
A Blessed Bean
Pandemic Horde
#76 - 2013-12-03 18:07:27 UTC
Abdiel Kavash wrote:
Katrina Bekers wrote:
Well, for one, Dogma doesn't need to calculate anything about the movement of sentries, and notifications about their movements to any of the clients.

I am not exactly sure why would you say that. Perhaps you think that sentries don't move? They do.


Ok, write me the equation of linear, uniform movement. And tell me about predictability of such movement over time, which is a key part of client-server protocol as of right now.

Then the equation of uniformly accelerated motion (aka orbit) -- which can change at owner's whim, anytime.

Sure they move.

Sure the workload is totally different.

QED.

<< THE RABBLE BRIGADE >>

Katrina Bekers
A Blessed Bean
Pandemic Horde
#77 - 2013-12-03 18:09:44 UTC
Oh Takashawa wrote:
That's simply not true. I can pull up an overview with sentries on it, and they move, at 1m/s. That means the server has to update me constantly with the positions of all those sentries, same as it does with fighterbombers or any other drone.


Motion prediction is a big corner cutter in client-server dialog.

The client can easily predict the movement of a sentry drone, and just be confirmed about it from time to time. Not so much about a FB - whose trajectory can change at any time.

<< THE RABBLE BRIGADE >>

Grarr Dexx
Blue Canary
Watch This
#78 - 2013-12-03 18:10:16 UTC
mynnna wrote:
Grarr Dexx wrote:
Looks like a whole load of baloney! Us lowsec residents have been suffering from utterly ridiculous amounts of tidi, in sub-100 man fights or even moving thirty people ten gates. If you did do this rebalancing act, you sure seemed to have forgotten the systems between 0.5 and 0.0.


So I'm going to quote you so you can't edit out the part where you look silly, and then quote the devblog that explains why you look silly.

Quote:
We're hoping to have this code out by tomorrow Wednesday, December 4th.


Baloney!
GeeShizzle MacCloud
#79 - 2013-12-03 18:18:57 UTC
Grarr Dexx wrote:
mynnna wrote:
Grarr Dexx wrote:
Looks like a whole load of baloney! Us lowsec residents have been suffering from utterly ridiculous amounts of tidi, in sub-100 man fights or even moving thirty people ten gates. If you did do this rebalancing act, you sure seemed to have forgotten the systems between 0.5 and 0.0.


So I'm going to quote you so you can't edit out the part where you look silly, and then quote the devblog that explains why you look silly.

Quote:
We're hoping to have this code out by tomorrow Wednesday, December 4th.


Baloney!



my god... f**kin read gawd dammit!

CCP Explorer wrote:

Yes, empire refers to high and low security space together.

Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#80 - 2013-12-03 18:22:08 UTC
Katrina Bekers wrote:
Abdiel Kavash wrote:
Katrina Bekers wrote:
Well, for one, Dogma doesn't need to calculate anything about the movement of sentries, and notifications about their movements to any of the clients.

I am not exactly sure why would you say that. Perhaps you think that sentries don't move? They do.


Ok, write me the equation of linear, uniform movement. And tell me about predictability of such movement over time, which is a key part of client-server protocol as of right now.

Then the equation of uniformly accelerated motion (aka orbit) -- which can change at owner's whim, anytime.

Sure they move.

Sure the workload is totally different.

QED.

You seem to know quite a lot about the EVE server/client internals. Are you sure you didn't want to post this on your CCP character?