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Dev Blog: Building a Balanced Universe

First post First post
Author
Berluth Luthian
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#21 - 2013-12-03 16:06:31 UTC
With the new warp speed changes, has the inter-node velocity of players increased on average? IOW, if we have interceptor wolf-packs loading grids at 2-3x the rate as before, would they be stressing the system in new ways?

1) How is the 'regionality' of wormhole space determined? I can't tell if it is on your chart?

2) Presumably with upcoming expansions we are getting 'new space'. Do you anticipate that this space will have similar proximity issues, or will it not necessarily be as well traveled or as relatively 'local' as current systems? Are you building your balance model to compensate for this new space when it comes? Let's say for example, we have to invest both time and resources in order to locate these new systems. Then let's say that in order to get to them you have to have a looong initial warp time (lightyears > hours) with a normal warp engine. I can conceive that this would be the kind of space, like wormholes, in which fights would escalate VERY quickly. Enemy fleets would have to be ready to escalate immediately after their long warping 'anchor' ship arrives in system and before it is detected.
Borachon
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2013-12-03 16:07:39 UTC
"Hey, look, we reinvented load balancing by recursive bi-section!": http://www.netlib.org/utk/lsi/pcwLSI/text/node253.html

Seriously, though, load balancing/graph coloring/graph partitioning has been researched by the high-performance computing community for literally decades, as well as in the data center and cloud computing environment more recently. As a result, there's a huge body of work, both in terms of publications and source code, that you could draw on here instead of having to rediscover the issues yourselves. As another starting point (outside of netlib, linked above, or google scholar), the Zoltan project out of Sandia National Labs has dealt with this issue head-on, and includes implementations of lots of different load balancing algorithms. It even includes a Python interface...
Grarr Dexx
Blue Canary
Watch This
#23 - 2013-12-03 16:07:40 UTC
Looks like a whole load of baloney! Us lowsec residents have been suffering from utterly ridiculous amounts of tidi, in sub-100 man fights or even moving thirty people ten gates. If you did do this rebalancing act, you sure seemed to have forgotten the systems between 0.5 and 0.0.
Rob Crowley
State War Academy
#24 - 2013-12-03 16:08:27 UTC
I think I know why they had you rewrite the blog: All the pictures look like stuff my cat throws up. And only 1 out of 8 is reasonably pink! You better go ask Punkturis how it's done.

Other than that: nice blog, interesting sheet.
CCP Prism X
C C P
C C P Alliance
#25 - 2013-12-03 16:10:03 UTC
Wormholes do not need to be split by proximity. There's no sense of locality or proximity in WH space so they just get a very dumb but efficient method applied to them.

However I reduced the number of nodes running WH space. We've added a few back, apparently I should look at adding more before the weekend.

Sorry Ugh

Edit: Yes this distribution is remade every startup.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#26 - 2013-12-03 16:10:21 UTC
GeeShizzle MacCloud wrote:

afaik from the dev blog it wont work exactly as you would say. if your staging close to a hostiles staging then upon downtime when the server runs a new premapping it may identify the staging systems as load hotspots and could well at the last splitting to discrete servers decide to split your staging and the hostiles staging to different servers.

if u plan on changing alliance / coalition staging once every day after downtime then i guess you could still grief in your original way.

Prism... the pre-loader to split the cluster load runs every downtime right?

This may or may not work for larger-scale wars. It's actually much more important that the system intelligently infer from node reinforcement requests I think when it comes to nullsec battles, because that's a much better indication of where the people with the most information expect the most load - and from those points you can infer spillover load (ok, these three points are to be reinforced: it follows from there that the surrounding systems are likely to see heavy traffic as well).

It does not solve the escalation problem, where a battle that was not pre-planned causes its lag to be exponentially increased because the fight and all surrounding systems are on the same node as people try to get in. Yes, many people titan-bridge in or cyno in, but many people will also be taking the gates from nearby systems. Because surprise load in nullsec tends to be strongly correlated with surprise load for every adjacent system, it's not good for a node that expects to have a quiet day to have all of those systems. That ensures that when a suprise asakai breaks out, that only one or two nodes at most are stressed. Were the nodes in nullsec more randomly allocated, you'd tend to see the fight on one node and each surrounding system on a different node, spreading the load.

This is why the idea of clumping together nearby systems on the same node doesn't make sense to me. The choice being made here seems to be avoiding inexplicable lag (the three ratters in solitude going why the **** is my system lagged) by increasing actual lag. I don't really understand why that tradeoff is being made.

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Efraya
V0LTA
WE FORM V0LTA
#27 - 2013-12-03 16:10:33 UTC
Interested and well thought out Devblog CCP PrismX.

[b][center]WSpace; Dead space.[/center] [center]Lady Spank for forum mod[/center][/b]

Kimimaro Yoga
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#28 - 2013-12-03 16:11:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Kimimaro Yoga
Speaking of reducing the number of systems per server... now that your node mapper is making tidy clusters, could you use it to reduce the tidi in systems around declared "need to reinforce" nodes?

What I'm thinking is a temporary bump up to the load fingerprint in say, all systems within three jumps of a system that's been requested to be reinforced. You know the neighboring systems will be heavily hit as well. So the reinforce request would automatically kick up the fingerprint of nearby systems, and the premapper would allocate to them more server power for that one day. Since the capacity would be drawn from basically the entirety of the rest of New Eden, you could quite effectively improve the gameplay in the systems surrounding a reinforced node without causing much trouble at all for anyone else. The worst case scenario would be that some slightly overloaded server would cause just a teeny bit of tidi during peak hours.

Edit: Blah, Weaselior beat me to it...

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Lipbite
Express Hauler
#29 - 2013-12-03 16:11:56 UTC
First paragraph is very interesting to read, last phrase describes the rest ("you get frustrated").
R0ze
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2013-12-03 16:12:01 UTC
How long till CCP puts each solarsystem at least on one physical core?

I mean with systems like HP Moonshot / also Intel announcing Knights Landing you could literally do that in a single server rack (with 7800 cpu cores or so).
GeeShizzle MacCloud
#31 - 2013-12-03 16:12:20 UTC
CCP Prism X wrote:
Wormholes do not need to be split by proximity. There's no sense of locality or proximity in WH space so they just get a very dumb but efficient method applied to them.

However I reduced the number of nodes running WH space. We've added a few back, apparently I should look at adding more before the weekend.

Sorry Ugh

Edit: Yes this distribution is remade every startup.


they dont have to deal with the load bearing requirements of hundreds of fighter bombers so im sure they'll be fine Prism!
Koban Agalder
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#32 - 2013-12-03 16:13:23 UTC
CCP Prism X wrote:
Wormholes do not need to be split by proximity. There's no sense of locality or proximity in WH space so they just get a very dumb but efficient method applied to them.

However I reduced the number of nodes running WH space. We've added a few back, apparently I should look at adding more before the weekend.

Sorry Ugh

Edit: Yes this distribution is remade every startup.

We thought that we sometimes and on the same node as some nullsec systems. WH alone is rather not possible to generate TiDi (at least untill every single one corp in WH finds connection to other active WH corp and make small skirmish/siege :P)

James Arget for CSM 8! http://csm.fcftw.org 

Marcus Arelios
Blackjack Brigade
Eclectic Collective
#33 - 2013-12-03 16:15:24 UTC
This was a pretty amazing dev blog and it is for this reason that I love EVE above all other games. (well one of the many reasons). I love how open the developers are with how they solve issues. Now if I can just find a way to apply this to our load balancing at my office....
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#34 - 2013-12-03 16:16:49 UTC
Grarr Dexx wrote:
Looks like a whole load of baloney! Us lowsec residents have been suffering from utterly ridiculous amounts of tidi, in sub-100 man fights or even moving thirty people ten gates. If you did do this rebalancing act, you sure seemed to have forgotten the systems between 0.5 and 0.0.


So I'm going to quote you so you can't edit out the part where you look silly, and then quote the devblog that explains why you look silly.

Quote:
We're hoping to have this code out by tomorrow Wednesday, December 4th.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal

Freelancer117
So you want to be a Hero
#35 - 2013-12-03 16:20:25 UTC
So you started with the assumption CPU cores (reffered to as "nodes" hereafter) like Capitalism,

and found out secretly they prefer CPU core Socialism. welcome to the Node Party comrades Cool

Eve online is :

A) mining simulator B) glorified chatroom C) spreadsheets online

D) CCP Games Pay to Win at skill leveling, with instant gratification

http://eve-radio.com//images/photos/3419/223/34afa0d7998f0a9a86f737d6.jpg

http://bit.ly/1egr4mF

Alphax45
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2013-12-03 16:20:40 UTC
My brain hurts...

Good work CCP (I think) :P :D
Annreida Kautsuo
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#37 - 2013-12-03 16:21:41 UTC
Yummy real-world problem solving using sound theory of computing knowledge!

Thanks for dusting off neurons in my brain that need to be used more often!
GeeShizzle MacCloud
#38 - 2013-12-03 16:22:27 UTC
mynnna wrote:
Grarr Dexx wrote:
Looks like a whole load of baloney! Us lowsec residents have been suffering from utterly ridiculous amounts of tidi, in sub-100 man fights or even moving thirty people ten gates. If you did do this rebalancing act, you sure seemed to have forgotten the systems between 0.5 and 0.0.


So I'm going to quote you so you can't edit out the part where you look silly, and then quote the devblog that explains why you look silly.

Quote:
We're hoping to have this code out by tomorrow Wednesday, December 4th.


also just saying that the phrase used being 'empire systems' would most likely refer to both high and lowsec systems, as im fairly certain all of the 4 main factions have lowsec areas. if you consider the area u fly in as being non-empire i suggest looking at the logos on the station toolbar next time you're docked up.
seth Hendar
I love you miners
#39 - 2013-12-03 16:29:42 UTC  |  Edited by: seth Hendar
Grarr Dexx wrote:
Looks like a whole load of baloney! Us lowsec residents have been suffering from utterly ridiculous amounts of tidi, in sub-100 man fights or even moving thirty people ten gates. If you did do this rebalancing act, you sure seemed to have forgotten the systems between 0.5 and 0.0.

+1000; having a tidi spike because i undock a 10 men bantam fleet is ridiculous.

forget about making 5 jumps with them.....


currently i tend to play less and less, because 80% of the tie tidi kicks in ever 2 minutes, usually to 50%, often even lower.

while it is ok to happen sometimes, i don't even play on weekend anymore, i don't even log, i know it will be tidi 50% every 2 minutes while the whole constellation as not even 100 pilots in it.....that's ridiculous
CCP Explorer
C C P
C C P Alliance
#40 - 2013-12-03 16:35:13 UTC
Aquila Sagitta wrote:
How is this being applied to wh systems?
It isn't. Solarsystems that are not geographically connected (WH systems) and non-solarsystem services are loadbalanced differently.

Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson | Senior Development Director | EVE Online // CCP Games | @CCP_Explorer