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The 25 Most Annoying Things About Eve Gamers
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Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#121 - 2013-11-30 20:41:21 UTC
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
Riot Girl wrote:
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:

I've had a few jobs where, on doing a little investigation, I've found that I was the lowest paid member on the team. The "off the record" reason given was, if I didn't pan out in the stereotypically "male" position, the company wouldn't be wasting as much money on me.

Some employers will also pay a woman less operating on the assumption that "She'll get pregnant and have to take time off". You honestly see most of this happen in the "small-business" world.

What you have shown is that in some smaller demographics, a gender pay-gap still exists due to discrimination. This doesn't reflect the whole business world, but tends to occur in smaller businesses. From your description, I could only guess the reason this discrimination exists is because women in positions such as yours aren't aware of their rights and are not pursuing legal action when their rights have been violated. In your case, where you claim to have found evidence, I certainly hope you sought legal advice to help prevent this from happening to others.



It's very, very difficult to prove such things, unless very blatant.


Bank statements?

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#122 - 2013-11-30 20:45:19 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Gee it's almost as if those who do studies know how to control for different factors.

Yes, like when the earnings of economics majors are compared with the earnings of sociology majors because they're basically the same thing, I guess.

Oh god.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#123 - 2013-11-30 20:49:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Riot Girl wrote:
Tippia wrote:
the last 10–20% of the gap

Is this a 10-20% gap in specific jobs where males and females are equally educated, have equal experience and working equal hours, or is this gap just a general statistic about average male wages vs average female wages? If it's the latter, it doesn't necessarily indicate discrimination. More evidence would need to be provided to make that assessment. In all likelihood, it's due to a difference in lifestyle choices between average men and women.

Gee it's almost as if those who do studies know how to control for different factors.


They do. The more recent studies coming out are showing a trending drop in occupational inequality. Not studies from 1994-2004, recent ones from last year and the year before.

I've noticed a feminist influence creeping into Wikipedia lately, and the article there in occupational inequality is referencing some very out of date studies. I think it's safe to assume that you might be only privy to some very out of date studies yourself. Honestly, I'm no trying to insult you or troll you, but I think whatever the source of your facts is, it is most likely very wrong now. Maybe it was right then, but it's probably wrong now.

Occupational inequality still exists, but not on a wide scale, and not so much as a result of occupational segregation as it once was. And there are, indeed, legal means available to anyone who is subjected to occupational inequality, including men.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#124 - 2013-11-30 20:56:32 UTC
Pay inequality is only a very small part of a larger and significantly more complex issue. Sure there's progress being made, but that doesn't mean our work is done. Not by far.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#125 - 2013-11-30 21:03:30 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Pay inequality is only a very small part of a larger and significantly more complex issue. Sure there's progress being made, but that doesn't mean our work is done. Not by far.

Feminism is a positive influence on global society and I admire your commitment to supporting that.

Oh god.
Maldiro Selkurk
Radiation Sickness
#126 - 2013-11-30 21:10:41 UTC
constant pleas to nerf the game playing style of other players to benefit the plaintiff.

Yawn,  I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#127 - 2013-11-30 21:11:45 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
Riot Girl wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Pay inequality is only a very small part of a larger and significantly more complex issue. Sure there's progress being made, but that doesn't mean our work is done. Not by far.

Feminism is a positive influence on global society and I admire your commitment to supporting that.

To be honest I'm not quite the advocate I could be. Most of my energy goes into self improvement. But I do like to debate and educate on the issues involved.

I don't champion feminism exclusively in of itself. It's just one of several movements for social equality that I support.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#128 - 2013-11-30 21:48:38 UTC
Quote:
1. Griefers

Arguably this class of player, which tops our list, could encapsulate everything here, but the thing about griefers is that they have no real agenda or tactic other than to make your life hell, and they'll do anything to do so, as if they have a condition that makes them want to be idiots, and an unexplainable hatred for you. Even scores, kill counts or any reward means nothing to these morons, who will even sacrifice themselves to cause you grief.

This totally unreasonable, childish and downright ridiculous behaviour is enough to make normal gamers shun multiplayer completely, and much like online forums, there's an ever growing presence of them, and all they want is to irritate and get a rise out of people, only in games they can do that in a way that doesn't require knowledge of the English language, something that's all too noticeable in forums.

There's simply no reasoning with them or explanation for their actions - all you can do is ignore them, or leave the game. Whatever you do, though, never fuel them by rising to their provocations, it's just like lighting a match in a room full of fireworks. You'll find griefers in almost every game, from CoD to Minecraft.


Sounds about right.

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

Captain Tardbar's Voice Discord Server
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#129 - 2013-11-30 23:08:40 UTC
Regarding the gender bender thing: I have female characters. Lots of guys do. I don't think that qualifies because they're not trying to make other people think they're actually female.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Bronto Scorpio
#130 - 2013-11-30 23:15:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Bronto Scorpio
That list was full of such butthurt, it also seemed like he challenged himself to see how many times he can mention GTA Online

I did like the Offspring reference though ^_^
Lady Areola Fappington
#131 - 2013-11-30 23:32:25 UTC
Bronto Scorpio wrote:
That list was full of such butthurt, it also seemed like he challenged himself to see how many times he can mention GTA Online

I did like the Offspring reference though ^_^



Honestly, it's all about the drive to feel superior to another group of humans. We used to be a lot more blatant in the past with things like racism and such.

Now it's a little more covert. "Look at all these social justice things I'm being offended by. I'm a better person than you because I care so much about the poor oppressed (group). Obviously they need my superior assistance with their issues, seeing as how they can't handle it themselves, being all inferior and stuff."

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#132 - 2013-12-01 00:29:57 UTC
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
Bronto Scorpio wrote:
That list was full of such butthurt, it also seemed like he challenged himself to see how many times he can mention GTA Online

I did like the Offspring reference though ^_^



Honestly, it's all about the drive to feel superior to another group of humans. We used to be a lot more blatant in the past with things like racism and such.

Now it's a little more covert. "Look at all these social justice things I'm being offended by. I'm a better person than you because I care so much about the poor oppressed (group). Obviously they need my superior assistance with their issues, seeing as how they can't handle it themselves, being all inferior and stuff."


This. The only place I've actually found casual racism in real life is at the hands of the people who call it out in everyone but themselves.

And as for this thread devolving into feminism... I believe I shall abstain this time. Being in the military at present, it's somewhat skewed in the exact opposite direction that most would believe, and I do not think I am objective on the issue any longer. So o7 on that one.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#133 - 2013-12-01 00:36:19 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
Bronto Scorpio wrote:
That list was full of such butthurt, it also seemed like he challenged himself to see how many times he can mention GTA Online

I did like the Offspring reference though ^_^



Honestly, it's all about the drive to feel superior to another group of humans. We used to be a lot more blatant in the past with things like racism and such.

Now it's a little more covert. "Look at all these social justice things I'm being offended by. I'm a better person than you because I care so much about the poor oppressed (group). Obviously they need my superior assistance with their issues, seeing as how they can't handle it themselves, being all inferior and stuff."


This. The only place I've actually found casual racism in real life is at the hands of the people who call it out in everyone but themselves.

Curious to hear your reasoning on that.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#134 - 2013-12-01 00:45:45 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
Bronto Scorpio wrote:
That list was full of such butthurt, it also seemed like he challenged himself to see how many times he can mention GTA Online

I did like the Offspring reference though ^_^



Honestly, it's all about the drive to feel superior to another group of humans. We used to be a lot more blatant in the past with things like racism and such.

Now it's a little more covert. "Look at all these social justice things I'm being offended by. I'm a better person than you because I care so much about the poor oppressed (group). Obviously they need my superior assistance with their issues, seeing as how they can't handle it themselves, being all inferior and stuff."


This. The only place I've actually found casual racism in real life is at the hands of the people who call it out in everyone but themselves.

Curious to hear your reasoning on that.


Well, I view "casual" racism as being the kind that isn't torches and pitchforks, or yelling about it on TV or other random crap like that. It's passive, not active.

And typically the people complaining about it that I have ever encountered are people who, by virtue of their attitude, are casual racists themselves. Mostly because the pervading view amongst quite a few establishments is that by saying things like "I can't stand racism" allows you to claim the moral high ground.

Basically they are like the Prius drivers of racial societal relations. They don't do it because it's the "right" thing to do, they do it because it makes them feel intellectually superior to a group of people they've probably never actually encountered. (sound familiar?) It's emotional fluffing for them, not any kind of genuine morality.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Na Und
Galactronics
#135 - 2013-12-01 01:03:47 UTC
Hey James, here's a link for you. Please take the time to read it.

An Analysis of Reasons for the Disparity in Wages Between Men and Women.

There will be a quiz on Friday.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#136 - 2013-12-01 01:13:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
Na Und wrote:
Hey James, here's a link for you. Please take the time to read it.

An Analysis of Reasons for the Disparity in Wages Between Men and Women.

There will be a quiz on Friday.


So they have 3 times as many workers in part time jobs, 3-4 times as many do not work, and there is a approx. 7% gap in Bachelor's and below in college education in favor of the female?

Good Lord, that actually paints the disparity to favor the female, when those factors are taken into account. Individual experiences may vary.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Lady Areola Fappington
#137 - 2013-12-01 01:54:49 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Na Und wrote:
Hey James, here's a link for you. Please take the time to read it.

An Analysis of Reasons for the Disparity in Wages Between Men and Women.

There will be a quiz on Friday.


So they have 3 times as many workers in part time jobs, 3-4 times as many do not work, and there is a approx. 7% gap in Bachelor's and below in college education in favor of the female?

Good Lord, that actually paints the disparity to favor the female, when those factors are taken into account. Individual experiences may vary.


It's a damn complex issue for sure, and not something you can really break down into nice simple forum posts. It does a disservice to just take a stance, stick fingers in ears, and go "nah nah I'm right you're wrong!".

We haven't even touched on how protected class laws actually put protected classes at a disadvantage when it comes to hiring and promotion. Simply put, if there's legal risk in hiring one group of people over another, then it's just good business to hire the unprotected group, and not expose your company to risk. Example, James and Janet both apply to a position. There's a non-zero chance that, sometime during her employment, Janet may bring a discrimination lawsuit against the company. Hire James, he's safer.

To keep this somewhat Eve relevant, I find the whole "all females are males" thing extremely annoying. I can't just say "I'm a woman playing Eve". I'm expected to go out of my way to verify my gender, else I'm just assumed to be Guy In Real Life. Flipside, guys get really, really pissed off when you do the inverse, and just assume them to be female unless proven otherwise.

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#138 - 2013-12-01 02:04:38 UTC
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Na Und wrote:
Hey James, here's a link for you. Please take the time to read it.

An Analysis of Reasons for the Disparity in Wages Between Men and Women.

There will be a quiz on Friday.


So they have 3 times as many workers in part time jobs, 3-4 times as many do not work, and there is a approx. 7% gap in Bachelor's and below in college education in favor of the female?

Good Lord, that actually paints the disparity to favor the female, when those factors are taken into account. Individual experiences may vary.


It's a damn complex issue for sure, and not something you can really break down into nice simple forum posts. It does a disservice to just take a stance, stick fingers in ears, and go "nah nah I'm right you're wrong!".

We haven't even touched on how protected class laws actually put protected classes at a disadvantage when it comes to hiring and promotion. Simply put, if there's legal risk in hiring one group of people over another, then it's just good business to hire the unprotected group, and not expose your company to risk. Example, James and Janet both apply to a position. There's a non-zero chance that, sometime during her employment, Janet may bring a discrimination lawsuit against the company. Hire James, he's safer.

To keep this somewhat Eve relevant, I find the whole "all females are males" thing extremely annoying. I can't just say "I'm a woman playing Eve". I'm expected to go out of my way to verify my gender, else I'm just assumed to be Guy In Real Life. Flipside, guys get really, really pissed off when you do the inverse, and just assume them to be female unless proven otherwise.


Heh, and I know you will get this reference, but the protected class thing is on full display in the military. I know you haven't been in for a little while, but in the last couple of years especially, it's getting worse.

And as for the G.I.R.L. issue. Idk. I can't say that I've ever really been upset about being assumed to be female when playing a female character. Haven't seen that many instances of it in others, either. I'd say about 50/50.

But as to the assumption itself. Speaking as a man, I myself simply go with the most likely assumption. And given my own and other's previous interactions online, it's often both safer and easier to assume I am speaking to a male until proven otherwise. And if proven wrong, I am happy to accept that, shift you into the correct mental category, and move on.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#139 - 2013-12-01 02:09:31 UTC
Your willingness to believe that a single study disproves decades of studies in gender disparities is pretty telling.
I'll get to the actual study later.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#140 - 2013-12-01 02:15:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Your willingness to believe that a single study disproves decades of studies in gender disparities is pretty telling.
I'll get to the actual study later.


"disproves"? Hardly, and I said no such thing.

I said that the results they showed indicate that something besides what is assumed to be norm, is actually the case. Unlike a great deal of the "decades of gender studies", the neutrality of the Department of Labor is fairly easily established, as well.

Oh, and my "results my vary" comment went over your head, I believe.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.