Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Not always. Because of fitting stats and stacking penalties sometimes is more reasonable to add T2 Flare than a T1 Rigor.

There aren't any stacking penalties for rigors or flares, just CPU penalties. And I don't have the link handy (the discussion is somewhere at the beginning of the original RHML thread), but the way missile mechanics work is that an explosion radius smaller than the target signature will also offset target velocity to some extent, whereas flares just apply to target velocity. That's why an explosion radius bonus is worth substantially more than an explosion velocity bonus and one reason RLMLs were so deadly in certain configurations.

The problem with utilizing rigors is that while, yes - you do improve your damage application - this comes at the expense of tank. Again, something a passive/low Ballistic Enhancer would change immeasurably.

A couple of reasons. First, it is fair to say that Minmitar ships are pretty popular in the game, and I'm going to take a stab in the dark, that the stabber is among one of the most popular (see what I did there? :). It's reasonable to suggest it is a ship a Caracal pilot would come across. And secondly, I picked it because I was demonstrating the current issues with the Heavy Precision Missiles, which are essentially behind the reason why the RLML became popular. I'm also not finished showing more information on other ship types yet.

You don't use missiles, but when fighting a faster, low signature ship, you're immediately going to switch to precision missiles. That is the smart choice.

These missiles are designed to hit both frigates and faster cruisers. That is their role.

When you load them, you also take a range and DPS drop. Its significant.

• Compared to Faction Heavy Missiles, you lose around 50% of your missile range.


• Compared to Fury Heavy Missiles - the best DPS for Precisions is 288- you lose 94 DPS before a single missile is fired.


• Sadly even Faction only do 284 DPS. Hardly thrilling, but then you get the range on those and I will point out something else interesting about those later.

All of these compromises are made up for the fact that Precision Missiles are supposed to hit better.

But they don't.

Even with a Caracal using Rigor and Flare rigs, three BCU and T2 launchers, you only hit the Stabber with the MWD for 197 DPS. Thats a drop of 111 DPS against a large signature target - with rigs in.

Against an AB fit Stabber it gets far worse. DPS drops to just 122. Over half the DPS of the missile, using the right missiles, against the right target.

They are pathetic.

Against a frigate - lets use your last Incursus loss as the fit, which used an afterburner, plate and a single active tank, the DPS drops down to just 69 dps.

If I use a target painter, it jumps to 83 DPS. That is the best we can do in a Caracal with Precision missiles. As shown previously, the Thorax can do way more damage across more ranges than the Caracal, and can also web and fit more DPS modules if you wished.

You wanted to see the Precisions against a Thorax? A ship it should absolutely hit well for sure.

Well, without the rigs and target painter, even those don't hit a MWD Thorax for full damage, doing just 215 DPS. If you overload your MWD - which is what you'd do to get in range if you didn't have Rails, then that is 175 DPS.

With a target painter, we can hit the full damage of the missile 248 DPS. It is worth considering however, that a double tanked Thorax can easily tank that level of DPS - and that is before resistances are a factor. In other words, it would only need a single rep to tank those missiles, and probably not even permanently. With the average resistance considered, DPS drops to 114 for the Caracal with Precisions.

The Thorax with Rails on, reaching the same range as the missiles, switching the tracking script to range - will hit the Caracal for less damage - absolutely - 28 dps less at its peak, and around 40 dps overall. But this is in a perfect counter orbit. If you change the angles and velocities - i.e. if you're chasing the Caracal - the DPS increases - and can even surpass the missiles.

But there is an elephant in the room for the Thorax.

The Drones.

Add those in, and the DPS of the thorax can jump to 392 DPS. Over a third more than the Caracal (which can only use two lights or a medium drone).

This is on a Thorax without any DPS modules at all. Just tracking and a painter, and not even with the best DPS rail guns.

Again, in EVE, the Thorax would win this fight. It can tank the Caracal's DPS, can hit it almost as well with its guns over the same range - and in a kite scenario - almost perfectly - Uranium Faction btw and changed the tracking computer script range. It had a target painter, MWD and disruptor fit in the mids. It can also shoot far further than the missiles if you wanted to do so. I haven't put in any rigs.

Please also remember in my previous post I pointed out that against a fast small signature cruiser - the Rails do far better than the missiles at hitting the target.

I have yet to discuss the RLML DPS and Mechanics, but it is definitely something I want to cover. Unlike Heavy Precisions, Light Precisions are very good. Its clear why they became popular given how bad Heavy Precisions are.

My last two long posts have shown how that isn't the case. Rails can happily out perform missiles at all range varieties in that scenario, and certainly a Thorax is far more flexible and effective as a ship than the Caracal.

But you state these things as if they are facts without showing us why this is so. Given you don't fly missile ships and have never fired one, you're coming at this with a very strong opinion on how effective they are and claiming we don't know what we're doing. I appreciate when missiles are hitting the hull of your Thorax, you might feel aggrieved that they are somehow overpowered, but as I've shown you repeatedly, Rail Guns typically out perform missiles, and that is before you add ANY DPS modules and after you've added Three BCU's and Missile Rigs and a Target Painter to the Caracal.

Given that the PVP you are doing in Faction Warfare takes place around Plex's, a Thorax and Incursus can dictate the terms of a fight by camping the acceleration gate entrance, so as a missile ship, you're at an immediate advantage of being scrammed, webbed and finding blasters easily out DPS'ing you into tiny pieces.

In a more open environment, a Thorax might have to overload its MWD and try to get closer for peak damage, but with Rails and Drones it can still out damage the Caracal while it is doing so, and if a Caracal runs, your guns do far more damage to it as you give chase, than if it was in orbit while its missiles do far less damage against your now much faster Thorax overloading, because the missiles struggle against speed.

If you want to fit a true long range thorax, the potential is there, although clearly the Moa is a better boat for that role.

Quite simply, if Missile boats were so good as you suggest, your corporation would retrain to fly them. That is exactly why everyone used to fly Drakes.

The tests I've done show that the Light Precision missiles are very good however, and I want to discuss those more.

That is an important thing to underline a problem I can see.

On the other hand, hiting a painted AB Incursus for 80dps to be a lot in fact, because a turret ship won't hit this incursus, like never if the incursus have tackle on the cruiser ; and 80dps is what a frigate will do at 8km, and it's more than enough to kill the said frigate in a minute or two.

And for the Stabber, my mistake if it's more popular than what I think (I don't see them a lot in my area), yet what threat to your Caracal is it ? Stabber has a rather weak tank and poor dps because of its high speed. And the same goes for frigate : you are basicaly complaining that you won't kill them fast enough, because eventhough it might take you some time considering the low tank of the ennemy ship, your tank will allow you to still win the engagement if he doesn't disengage.

And you still miss the big picture with your virtual duels, which is the question of what your ship will be used for. Is it ranged dps ? Frigate interdiction ? Cruiser fleet dps ? What will be your range of operation ? Basicaly, a missile ship will have one or two fits for all these roles whereas each turret fit must be very specific. Yet even missiles can't do everything with one fit and the endemic problem you seem to suffer is that you want to do everything with one fit.

For example, the best weapon to hunt down this railgun Thorax would be HAML. On a Caracal, HAML have ~20-25km range which mean you'll either tackle and kill the Thorax, because these will apply their dps, or warp off.

Basicaly, HAM will be the missiles of choice for <25km engagement whereas HM will be better for longer ranges. RLML will be anti-frigate support.

Also, numbers on an AB anything are moot as the AB function is to reduce missile damage. And keep in mind that rigs are importants, as the tanking rigs above all have rather big effects on missiles and turrets damage application, because they basicaly counter speed tanking.

Given you have gone back to an old post, that I never replied too, I wanted to address that, given you brought it back up.



Bouh, honestly mate. Just go on youtube and you can watch dozens and dozens of solo battleships taking out entire gangs of cruisers. Let alone three battleships!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MiX7N5OyTYE - this is hilarious - why can't I ever find people like this when I solo roam?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpQDoOJLlHM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYF0BYX_OuU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=faFt86AzYzM

The last one is a Raven killing frigates. Hilariously, if you look at the numbers, the Raven hits frigates better than the Caracal when fit properly.

The reason our two battleships failed to kill the cruisers was because I'd over tanked and under tracked. This is the issue with the Rokh, to get a really epic active tank, you don't have many mid slots left.

The engagement, in other words, taught me a lot, but thanks to Hyperion popping, we still came out on top on efficiency.

tl:dr - Battleships can kill cruisers - and frigates just fine.

Indeed, and cruisers can kill battleships and frigates just fine ; and frigates can kill cruisers just fine, but for battleship you need to be careful with smartbombs.

Buoh, you're a good chap, I'll say this for you, you're getting the best out of my time replying to you on this thread, and hopefully this will help CCP Rise see some of the underlying issues facing missiles - wait are you a secret CCP Rise alt trolling me? lol

So to be clear, you're saying a gun based Cruiser can't hit an AB Incursus as well as the terrible missiles?

Which ship would you like me to show you that isn't the case with?

I know you fly the Thorax so let us begin.

With a tracking computer with speed script, tracking enhancer and a web - all of which are easily doable on this boat, with anti matter and Heavy Electron Blasters, you will hit for 90 dps peak at 5km with faction Anti Matter. That is with both ships at 70% of their speed and I haven't turned on any propulsion in the Thorax, as if its being brawled by an Incursus, there is little point. Overall I would say the missiles are indeed better, but I've not added a few things.

No rigs, and no DPS modules.

And no Drones - something the Thorax gets a lot from. Add even medium drones, and DPS hits 240 on the Thorax against your Incursus. Granted you can shoot the drones, but I can also improve the gun situation. If I stop moving in the Thorax and let the Incursus do its thing around me, tracking improves, Now I do 282 peak DPS in total.

If you are approaching or moving away from me in any form, the tracking changes completely and I start to do close to full gun damage. Which is how you should fly the Thorax, constantly going towards and away from your target to get the best tracking.

With wee tiny Electron Blasters I can get better tracking, and with Void ammo, if you got within their range, I'd do 134 dps or there abouts. Still better than the missiles. Blasters are a funny thing though, even with Lead in they still don't reach much further, but with the smallest guns in, and the lowest DPS ammo, you can still do more DPS than the missiles from a three BCU Caracal with Precision Heavy missiles in. That is without drones.

Now, given I guess you're orbiting around 9 or so KM with your Incurus right? Given the range of your guns, if I pop in Javelins, I can hit you with the rails for around 168 dps. That is just with the guns. That is twice that of the heavy precision missiles.

Again, Rails are very good anti-frigate guns as long as you control your fight, which with a web or two is very easy to do. So the Rail Thorax is basically your best all round Anti-Frigate cruiser. Combine them with their drones and you have, technically, a very decent boat that can easily out DPS a Caracal with Precision Heavy Missiles. You can either tank it or add more DPS, given its anti-frigate, a buffer tank and EANM and a DPS module seem to make sense in this configuration, but you can active tank them instead.

The RLML Caracal is another story though. The old one at least.

Before the recent changes, it could do 190 dps peak damage in a typical Caracal across 33km. It hit almost all targets well, and it would certainly hit your Incursus for full damage almost every time, AB or not. It only does less damage against kiting frigates, like a Condor, but those ships can also burn away from a Caracal if flown well.

It only has two light drones. With Hob's in, it does 225 dps peak. Very solid.

But that number is still not as high as the peak rail damage Thorax with drones, which can reach 318 at 6 km and 260 dps at longer ranges 25km)

Overall then, the Caracal is simpler, and without question more effective in a broader sense, mainly because of its range and consistent damage, but only against frigates. But flown well and fit right, an Anti Frigate Thorax can easily out damage it, and both chasing or running away from targets, will do far more damage - painfully so, while doing more better peak damage in orbits if you pick the right ammo.

Given that the Caracal then, is a one trick pony in this fit, and cannot do the better damage against Cruisers than it can against frigate, that the Thorax happily can (typically twice the DPS), its fair to say the Caracal is a bit limited with a RLML fit.

It best role, is anti-frigate, without question in this configuration. At least it was... Those numbers on the Caracal are now a thing of the past, and now, on average when you take into account the reload time, the new RLML will only do 153 dps against your incursus - and that is before accounting for your resists.

That is where the nerf comes in. Overall they do less DPS, and the don't fire for 40 seconds. Sure it does a peak DPS of 285, but this is still not as good as what Rails and Drones can reach without a burst mode.

As demonstrated, the Thorax has none of these drawbacks, does more DPS, has more fitting flexibility, and can reload or change ammo in 5 seconds.

My advice Bouh. Keep flying Gallente.

If anyone wants to test these fits out, happy to give it a go on Sisi. I also have a TS3 we can use. E-mail is the best bet.

If your Incursus is going to dive in and get in and try to sit at 500m, why are you fitting Rails on your Incursus then? They don't hit anything like as well at that close range.

If I fit blasters on the Thorax instead, I am absolutely still going to eat you alive at those close ranges, especially if I bring webs. As I said. I'm available for tests on Sisi.