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manufacturing cost problem
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KHNick Rotineque
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2013-11-24 09:27:14 UTC  |  Edited by: KHNick Rotineque
hi i am a new player and am having an issue with some bpc's i purchased, when i queue one up the cost of materials is higher than listed in the BoM, whats causing this? the BPC is ML125 i am PE3 (training 4) i included a screenshot that shows what i mean, does the BoM not change when the bpc changes hands or you level up thats all i can think of

http://i.imgur.com/jnPDxT3.jpg
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#2 - 2013-11-24 09:55:49 UTC
There's a longstanding bug that blueprints whose build cost includes "Extra Materials" of the same type as the regular materials required will not show the proper amount required in the "Show info" window.

It sucks. All there really is to do is file a bug report, and keep training for PE5 when the problem disappears.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
KHNick Rotineque
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2013-11-24 15:54:00 UTC
thanks, i guess i will train PE5 before i build any
Izzy Ankhavees
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#4 - 2013-11-24 17:54:18 UTC
In the forums people talk about things they dont understand as bugs.

First you have to understand what BPs are.

BPs are the schematics to build something. The exact materials and skills. The representations of real life blueprints which are the guides for producing something. In EVE, they show what it would be required taking into consideration YOUR SKILLs and THE ITEM. Nothing else.

When you ask for a quote, it is not exactly what is in the BP because instalations have features. As you skill up, that skills compensate for material waste, factory efficiency and so on. That is why the less skilled you are, the more material you need to use the less efficient is the instalation you are using.

Try this: Seek in info sites the efficiency of the instalations you are installing the job, and get a quote from instalations with different numbers, and also you have different standings towards.

This "bug" has not been solved because it is not a bug, it is lack of understanding of game mechanics.

[i]"Perfect crimes do not exist, for to be a crime, it must be proven." "Make the body count unacceptable to ensure your own safety." "Basic rule of covert ops: let someone else do your dirty work.[/i]"
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#5 - 2013-11-24 19:50:28 UTC
Izzy Ankhavees wrote:
In the forums people talk about things they dont understand as bugs.

First you have to understand what BPs are.

BPs are the schematics to build something. The exact materials and skills. The representations of real life blueprints which are the guides for producing something. In EVE, they show what it would be required taking into consideration YOUR SKILLs and THE ITEM. Nothing else.

When you ask for a quote, it is not exactly what is in the BP because instalations have features. As you skill up, that skills compensate for material waste, factory efficiency and so on. That is why the less skilled you are, the more material you need to use the less efficient is the instalation you are using.

Try this: Seek in info sites the efficiency of the instalations you are installing the job, and get a quote from instalations with different numbers, and also you have different standings towards.

This "bug" has not been solved because it is not a bug, it is lack of understanding of game mechanics.



Take a look at the screenshot. The Assembly line material multiplier is 1.0. The installation is as efficient as any other standard manufacturing line. Standings do not affect the material requirements to build an item (they may affect the usage fee, but it's effectively nothing anyway).

The Blueprint's "You:" line is meant to show exactly how much of that material is required at a 1.0 material multiplier line. The "Perfect:" line does the same thing but assumes a Production Efficiency skill of 5. The "You:" line is computed correctly for every case except blueprints which contain "Extra Materials" of a type that appears in the "Materials" section and the character has PE < 5.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#6 - 2013-11-24 20:20:45 UTC
Izzy Ankhavees wrote:
In the forums people talk about things they dont understand....



*ahem*
It's like raaaaaaaaaiiin, on your wedding day...

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Izzy Ankhavees
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#7 - 2013-11-26 15:50:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Izzy Ankhavees
You say exactly the same, and still the same things.

The blueprint shows the mats needed for the THING, according to your skills and blueprint research levels.

The Quote from the factory shows beyond that, the EXTRA to compensate the non 100% efficiency. The number from where it is taken the surplus it shows is right beside the missing mats.

Is it hard to understand ?

P.S.: The only thing messed up I see there that could be something to change is instead of showing the extra in another section but not the extra waste, it should summ up all the materiais and show totals to be more easly understood.

[i]"Perfect crimes do not exist, for to be a crime, it must be proven." "Make the body count unacceptable to ensure your own safety." "Basic rule of covert ops: let someone else do your dirty work.[/i]"
Elena Thiesant
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2013-11-26 16:05:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Elena Thiesant
It has nothing to do with the factory. The only factories that have a material factor over 1.0 (ie require extra waste) are the POS rapid arrays, he's using a station slot.
The screenshot clearly shows "Material multiplier: Assembly line and Item" to be 1.0, i.e. a factory with 0% extra waste, or 100% efficiency if you prefer. There is no more efficient factory than the one he's using, he can go to absolutely any factory in any NPC station and get exactly the same results.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#9 - 2013-11-26 16:07:37 UTC
Izzy Ankhavees wrote:
You say exactly the same, and still the same things.

The blueprint shows the mats needed for the THING, according to your skills and blueprint research levels.

The Quote from the factory shows beyond that, the EXTRA to compensate the non 100% efficiency of the factory.

Is it hard to understand ?

You need 90 trit according to the blueprint for something, lets say.
When you ask for a quote from a 90% efficient factory, it compensates for the wastage, and then you need on THAT FACTORY 100 trit instead of 90.
If you go around and choose a better factory, it will give a lesser cost in materials. IT is that simple.
I think you are confused.
The factory line is a 1.0, so it's not 90% efficient. The "You" line plus the "extra materials" at a 1.0 factory should be the same as the required materials in the quote window. It's clearly not.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Izzy Ankhavees
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#10 - 2013-11-26 16:10:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Izzy Ankhavees
Lucas Kell wrote:
Izzy Ankhavees wrote:
You say exactly the same, and still the same things.

The blueprint shows the mats needed for the THING, according to your skills and blueprint research levels.

The Quote from the factory shows beyond that, the EXTRA to compensate the non 100% efficiency of the factory.

Is it hard to understand ?

You need 90 trit according to the blueprint for something, lets say.
When you ask for a quote from a 90% efficient factory, it compensates for the wastage, and then you need on THAT FACTORY 100 trit instead of 90.
If you go around and choose a better factory, it will give a lesser cost in materials. IT is that simple.
I think you are confused.
The factory line is a 1.0, so it's not 90% efficient. The "You" line plus the "extra materials" at a 1.0 factory should be the same as the required materials in the quote window. It's clearly not.



Yes, I read more carefully the page and gone to sisi to check up, so I corrected my post. The numbers still the same, just the reason I didnt get.

You still can correlate the surplus of materials with the wastage, clear and clear.

[i]"Perfect crimes do not exist, for to be a crime, it must be proven." "Make the body count unacceptable to ensure your own safety." "Basic rule of covert ops: let someone else do your dirty work.[/i]"
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#11 - 2013-11-26 17:11:20 UTC
Izzy Ankhavees wrote:
You still can correlate the surplus of materials with the wastage, clear and clear.


What source of wastage do you see that shouldn't be accounted for in the "Show Info: You" quote?


The bug isn't that the Manufacturing quote is right, the bug is that the Show Info quote is being calculated wrong.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Izzy Ankhavees
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#12 - 2013-11-27 03:10:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Izzy Ankhavees
RubyPorto wrote:
Izzy Ankhavees wrote:
You still can correlate the surplus of materials with the wastage, clear and clear.


What source of wastage do you see that shouldn't be accounted for in the "Show Info: You" quote?


The bug isn't that the Manufacturing quote is right, the bug is that the Show Info quote is being calculated wrong.


There is no bug. There is the lack of a place telling you from where that wastage is being calculated.

The numbers on the quote are sound, they are just messed up.

If you get the total needed according to the blueprint, and compensate for the waste in the quote window, the number is the total shown. The information is bad placed though. The extra is shown, but it is also counted towards the waste which is shown in only one place but related to both. That is what makes it seem off.

I mistooke the reason for the waste. The blueprint have one only number of waste, that must be a metanumber and materials may have waste according to your skills on something. But one thing you can calculate:

The total number needed in the quote is exactly the total number needed in the blueprint plus the margin that will make a summ equal to the ammount from where the wastage can be drawn and the rest will be the total in the blueprint. That I tested with some blueprints in Sisi and the ones I have on TQ, it is always the same.

According to "EVE Math", the waste is found from base + (base * (Waste Factor for the Blueprint/(Material efficiency+1))/100) + (base*(0.25-(0.05* Your production efficency))), and then, the numbers are explained with that wild variation from wastage.

Bug are when something is not working as intended. The process is working as intended, what is lacking is more information given by the UI for those not inclined to find out. But still, when you calculate the quote wastage with the total, you find the exact numbers shown in the BP on the screenshot.

[i]"Perfect crimes do not exist, for to be a crime, it must be proven." "Make the body count unacceptable to ensure your own safety." "Basic rule of covert ops: let someone else do your dirty work.[/i]"
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#13 - 2013-11-27 03:36:07 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Izzy Ankhavees wrote:
There is no bug. There is the lack of a place telling you from where that wastage is being calculated.

The numbers on the quote are sound, they are just messed up.


Which are they? Sound, or messed up?

The "You:" line is the calculation of the materials needed to build a run of the blueprint with your PE skill and the blueprint's ME. It calculates this correctly in all cases EXCEPT when there are "Extra Materials" of the same type as standard materials and the manufacturer's PE level is less than 5.

The line gives the correct information in most cases and incorrect information in some cases. That's called a bug.

Quote:
The total number needed in the quote is exactly the total number needed in the blueprint plus the margin that will make a summ equal to the ammount from where the wastage can be drawn and the rest will be the total in the blueprint. That I tested with some blueprints in Sisi and the ones I have on TQ, it is always the same.


I have no idea what this says. If you could try rephrasing it maybe?

Quote:
Bug are when something is not working as intended. The process is working as intended, what is lacking is more information given by the UI for those not inclined to find out. But still, when you calculate the quote wastage with the total, you find the exact numbers shown in the BP on the screenshot.


Yes, you get the requirements listed on the Blueprint. Which are not the materials required to actually build the thing.

The Blueprint says "This is how much of each material you, based on your skills, will need to build this thing" and when you go to build it, you'll find that you actually need a different amount.

That is a bug.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Caldari 5
D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F. S.A.S
Affirmative.
#14 - 2013-11-27 04:10:35 UTC
Wow that screenshot is all manner of Funky

BPC information
Isogen You: 7850 - Perfect: 7137
Extra Materials
Isogen: 26869

Quote Window
Isogen: 10537
Extra Materials
Isogen: 26869

With a Line Modifier of 1.0 how the smeg does it get 10537? that's 2687 over what it should be. It's almost like it is adding Wastage of the Extra Materials to the primary materials section?
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#15 - 2013-11-27 04:33:00 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Caldari 5 wrote:
Wow that screenshot is all manner of Funky

With a Line Modifier of 1.0 how the smeg does it get 10537? that's 2687 over what it should be. It's almost like it is adding Wastage of the Extra Materials to the primary materials section?



Yep. IIRC, waste from a PE of less than 5 affects Extra Materials when those materials also appear in the primary materials. But whoever did the math for the Show Info window didn't know that.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#16 - 2013-11-27 05:22:20 UTC
I can't believe there's even an argument about this. This is a well known bug. May as well be arguing over whether or not water is wet.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Anke Eyrou
Hades Sisters
#17 - 2013-11-28 09:03:09 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
I can't believe there's even an argument about this. This is a well known bug. May as well be arguing over whether or not water is wet.



Depends upon your meaning of 'wet'

I expect to get this post deleted or locked. So much for freedom of expression.

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#18 - 2013-11-29 21:33:10 UTC
Caldari 5 wrote:
Wow that screenshot is all manner of Funky

BPC information
Isogen You: 7850 - Perfect: 7137
Extra Materials
Isogen: 26869

Quote Window
Isogen: 10537
Extra Materials
Isogen: 26869

With a Line Modifier of 1.0 how the smeg does it get 10537? that's 2687 over what it should be. It's almost like it is adding Wastage of the Extra Materials to the primary materials section?
It's not almost doing that, that's what it's doing :p
Waste never accrues into the extra materials section on the quote, but extra materials is affected by waste, so it gets added into the main materials section.
But the BP show info window only shows the main materials waste, no extra materials waste.

Realistically the show info should say:
Isogen You: 7850 - Perfect: 7137
Extra Materials
Isogen: You: 29556 - Perfect: 26869

and the Quote window should show:
Isogen: 7850
Extra Materials
Isogen: 29556

Overall though it works out so the quote window is the right amount, and the right amount will be taken, it just displays a bit wrong, and the show info is out by the waste of the extra materials.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.