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Feedback Request - Margin trading and accurate market UI

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Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#341 - 2013-11-27 23:48:28 UTC
I am thinking of just how much any change to Margin Trading will cause the demand for 'bad' officer modules to collapse.

Awful modules that margin scammers will pay 250m for to use in scams will end up being reprocessed because there will be no demand for them at all.


That said, go ahead and fix this loophole. The smarter scammers will find a new one; I have one or two already in mind. Just don't make changes that screws over people that post buy orders for many different items expecting some but not many of them to be fulfilled each day. (I overwhelmingly use Margin Trading for non-scamming purposes).

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Adunh Slavy
#342 - 2013-11-28 03:43:21 UTC
Quote:

The solution we proposed to the CSM initially was based around the idea that if you didn't have enough money in your wallet to back an order, that order would be cancelled. This would still allow traders to benefit from being able to have multiple orders for which they couldn't cover the total. For example, I could have one buy order for a thorax at 5 mil, and another order for a rupture at 5 mil with only 7 mil in my wallet. If my wallet went below 5mil, it would cancel both orders.


What about just not filling the order? Instead the transaction simply fails and the order stays up. This allows for legitimate and currently used buy order pressure manipulations and allows for small traders (and big quite frankly) to leverage.

The failure would be reported to the seller with a pop up or a simple red text message on the order dialog. The buyer could get a yellow text entry in the transaction log for 0 items at 0 ISK, so that it could be used for legitimate market positioning.

The transaction would still remain atomic and the processing overhead, after the rollback, would be no more than it is now.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
non judgement
Without Fear
Flying Burning Ships Alliance
#343 - 2013-11-28 06:56:57 UTC  |  Edited by: non judgement
I'm all for some kind of order cancelling/hiding/suspending of orders when you don't have enough isk to cover the minimum quantity * price. Something like that would be okay.

The only thing I'd like, is an evemail or notification specifically saying the buy order item, how much it was and which station it was in, was removed because of insufficient funds.

The game doing something like this, and having an easy way to figure out what happened, would be good.


Edit: Just saying if there wasn't something like this and the order was just removed, I'd probably just forget that I had an order for it.
Lord Parallax
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#344 - 2013-11-28 07:53:51 UTC
Okay I read the OP, I didn't read anyone else's responses.

CCP wants to make EvE as much like real life as possible with many aspects.

SO this is what I propose to the whole margin scamming thing.
IN REAL LIFE
when you make some kind of finaincial dealings within an organsation you have to have the currency to cover it
When you are checked and you do not have the currency to cover it your account is then charged for the lack of funds.
after x time with no attempt to fix the negative the account is CLOSED

SO IN EVE
margin scammers are required to have the isk to cover the order placed.
if they are checked and do not have the isk then their wallet is placed in the negative ( much like an overdraft fee)
They are then given x time to bring the wallet back to a positive state or the account is CLOSED

And to add additional notes. IF any pilot on an account is holding a negative wallet that pilot is NOT allowed to be biomassed

SO margin scammers can play their game and be held finicially responsibly just like in real life.
Drab Cane
Carbenadium Industries
#345 - 2013-11-28 08:20:16 UTC
As CCP Rise stated, the problem is basically with the UI. If we can find an equitable way to warn potential sellers that a particular buy order may not be fillable, that will be sufficient. No changes to the margin-trading feature are needed.

The main problem with marking an order as "yes, there's enough cash to fulfill the order" is the fact that wallet balances can change quickly, and drastically. And, they can easily be manipulated. Right now, we take it for granted that the order will be filled.

We would be in an even worse situation if the UI said specifically "Yes, the funds are available and the order is guaranteed to go through," just to have the wallet emptied 2 seconds later, or after the user has purchased an over-priced item intent on selling to the buy order.

A better choice would be to allow the user to 'Check credit status' of the order (from the right-click pop-up menu), to see if the order is fully covered by the funds in escrow (or not). The user can then make an informed decision, and the UI is as accurate as it can be (unless there's some way to manipulate the escrow amount after the order has been placed).

Simple, (might be) easy to implement without exhausting the hamsters, and it doesn't affect existing gameplay. Done deal.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#346 - 2013-11-28 08:27:29 UTC
Drab Cane wrote:
Right now, we take it for granted that the order will be filled.


This right here is the problem.

Nowhere does anything in the game suggest you make that assumption.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Dav Varan
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#347 - 2013-11-28 10:12:45 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Drab Cane wrote:
Right now, we take it for granted that the order will be filled.


This right here is the problem.

Nowhere does anything in the game suggest you make that assumption.



Incorrect.

Placing buy orders on the market suggests this.
Unitl a player trains MT which is some time into most players game experiance.
TheSmokingHertog
Julia's Interstellar Trade Emperium
#348 - 2013-11-28 10:46:35 UTC
Dav Varan wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Drab Cane wrote:
Right now, we take it for granted that the order will be filled.


This right here is the problem.

Nowhere does anything in the game suggest you make that assumption.



Incorrect.

Placing buy orders on the market suggests this.
Unitl a player trains MT which is some time into most players game experiance.


Incorrect, for PVP oriented people that is.

Have all trading alts trained up to LVL V.

"Dogma is kind of like quantum physics, observing the dogma state will change it." ~ CCP Prism X

"Schrödinger's Missile. I dig it." ~ Makari Aeron

-= "Brain in a Box on Singularity" - April 2015 =-
Dav Varan
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#349 - 2013-11-28 11:01:54 UTC
TheSmokingHertog wrote:
Dav Varan wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Drab Cane wrote:
Right now, we take it for granted that the order will be filled.


This right here is the problem.

Nowhere does anything in the game suggest you make that assumption.



Incorrect.

Placing buy orders on the market suggests this.
Unitl a player trains MT which is some time into most players game experiance.


Incorrect, for PVP oriented people that is.

Have all trading alts trained up to LVL V.


Its irrelevant what type of char main or alt you eventually train MT on.

Until you discover the MT skill and train it on any character the absolute implication from using the market and prepaying 100% isk into buy orders is that buy orders are guaranteed because player has no control over promised isk on a listed order.
Mei ra'Zhault
Kimotoro Trading Company
#350 - 2013-11-28 11:10:43 UTC
Well this thread is certainly going nowhere fast.

Drab Cane wrote:
A better choice would be to allow the user to 'Check credit status' of the order (from the right-click pop-up menu), to see if the order is fully covered by the funds in escrow (or not). The user can then make an informed decision, and the UI is as accurate as it can be (unless there's some way to manipulate the escrow amount after the order has been placed).

Whether there is or is not an issue with the margin trading skill (I think it's fine), I'm fairly sure that CCP is going to attempt to "improve" the market regardless. The player-driven 'market query' function to hide or remove (or whatever) buy orders only when needed suggested by Gizznitt and re-suggested by Drab Cane here seems like a solution that is both complete and minimally disruptive.

The market query could perform the exact same wallet balance assertion as attempting to sell (the minimum quantity of an item) to a buy order does now, minus the "attempting to sell" part. It's also entirely reasonable to think that a broker would verify if funds were available for a transaction upon request.

The idea of re-checking and flagging every player's buy orders whenever their balance changes is, frankly, insane. Try it though, it will be hilarious. Everyone put in a long skill.
Careby
#351 - 2013-11-28 12:20:26 UTC
Drab Cane wrote:
As CCP Rise stated, the problem is basically with the UI. If we can find an equitable way to warn potential sellers that a particular buy order may not be fillable, that will be sufficient. No changes to the margin-trading feature are needed.

The main problem with marking an order as "yes, there's enough cash to fulfill the order" is the fact that wallet balances can change quickly, and drastically. And, they can easily be manipulated. Right now, we take it for granted that the order will be filled.

We would be in an even worse situation if the UI said specifically "Yes, the funds are available and the order is guaranteed to go through," just to have the wallet emptied 2 seconds later, or after the user has purchased an over-priced item intent on selling to the buy order.

A better choice would be to allow the user to 'Check credit status' of the order (from the right-click pop-up menu), to see if the order is fully covered by the funds in escrow (or not). The user can then make an informed decision, and the UI is as accurate as it can be (unless there's some way to manipulate the escrow amount after the order has been placed).

Simple, (might be) easy to implement without exhausting the hamsters, and it doesn't affect existing gameplay. Done deal.

I don't see the advantage of a change to the game to "warn potential sellers that a particular buy order may not be fillable" compared to "sellers do not see buy orders that are not fillable". I don't think anyone has suggested any sort of order guarantee that an order will be fillable in the future (whether one millisecond or one week), we're just asking for the best information currently available at the time.

Requiring each potential seller to do a manual credit check would (a) not provide information that is any less likely to change one second later, and (b) would not improve overall market display accuracy. Also since EVE markets are regional, and commonly used third-party tools are multi-regional, a credit check would presumably require traveling to each region to manually check the orders displayed by the tools.
Dav Varan
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#352 - 2013-11-28 12:55:16 UTC
A ratter does not get credit all his stuff has to be paid for out of his pocket.
A PvP'r does not get credit all his stuff has to be paid for out of his pocket.
A Hauler does not get credit all hisstuff has to be paid for out of his pocket.
A Manufacturer does not get credit all his stuff has to be paid for out of his pocket.
A Miner does not get credit all his stuff has to be paid for out of his pocket.

A trader gets credit ??????

I have no problem with traders making money on margins.
But they should do it with there own isk like everybody else has to.

Its not unreasonable to expect a trader to pay for orders they have put up 100% of the time.

Remove MT , reimburse the skill points and move on.
Careby
#353 - 2013-11-28 13:00:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Careby
Dav Varan wrote:
...A trader gets credit ??????

...Remove MT , reimburse the skill points and move on.

MT doesn't let a trader buy stuff on credit. It just lets a trader show interest in buying more stuff than he can actually buy all at once. It probably does as much good for non-traders as for traders, since it gives them a greater pool of buyers to sell their unwanted stuff to.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#354 - 2013-11-28 13:03:53 UTC
Dav Varan wrote:
TheSmokingHertog wrote:
Dav Varan wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Drab Cane wrote:
Right now, we take it for granted that the order will be filled.


This right here is the problem.

Nowhere does anything in the game suggest you make that assumption.



Incorrect.

Placing buy orders on the market suggests this.
Unitl a player trains MT which is some time into most players game experiance.


Incorrect, for PVP oriented people that is.

Have all trading alts trained up to LVL V.


Its irrelevant what type of char main or alt you eventually train MT on.

Until you discover the MT skill and train it on any character the absolute implication from using the market and prepaying 100% isk into buy orders is that buy orders are guaranteed because player has no control over promised isk on a listed order.
But even without the MT skill, a buy order is still not guaranteed for other reasons. So what should we do, nerf those reasons too? Or do you think simply telling people that they shouldn't assume anything and that buy, as well as sell orders, are not guaranteed?

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Dav Varan
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#355 - 2013-11-28 14:08:48 UTC
Careby wrote:
Dav Varan wrote:
...A trader gets credit ??????

...Remove MT , reimburse the skill points and move on.

MT doesn't let a trader buy stuff on credit. It just lets a trader show interest in buying more stuff than he can actually buy all at once. It probably does as much good for non-traders as for traders, since it gives them a greater pool of buyers to sell their unwanted stuff to.



Buy orders are a traders tools same as mining lasers are a miners tools.

Can I get 5 mining lasers and only pay for 1 ? no

Can I get 5 buy orders and only pay for 1 yes ?
Dav Varan
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#356 - 2013-11-28 14:13:33 UTC
Mag's wrote:

But even without the MT skill, a buy order is still not guaranteed for other reasons. So what should we do, nerf those reasons too? Or do you think simply telling people that they shouldn't assume anything and that buy, as well as sell orders, are not guaranteed?


what things make a buy order non guaranteed apart from MT please enlighten.
Careby
#357 - 2013-11-28 14:56:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Careby
Dav Varan wrote:
Can I get 5 buy orders and only pay for 1 yes ?

No, you have to pay for all 5 orders, up front, regardless of your MT skill. The cost of an order is the broker fee. An order is not a purchase or sale, it's just a public advertisement that you are willing to participate in one. The question is whether you should be able to place the ad if you don't have what you're advertising.
Dav Varan
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#358 - 2013-11-28 15:43:05 UTC
Careby wrote:
Dav Varan wrote:
Can I get 5 buy orders and only pay for 1 yes ?

No, you have to pay for all 5 orders, up front, regardless of your MT skill. The cost of an order is the broker fee. An order is not a purchase or sale, it's just a public advertisement that you are willing to participate in one. The question is whether you should be able to place the ad if you don't have what you're advertising.


No its not an advert.
An advert does not have a mechanism for transferring ownership of goods.

A buy order is a tool that cost money to purchase it may be a finacial tool rather than a peice of equipment but it is still a tool.
a buy order goes on to turn itself into goods via interactions with sell orders.

Just becasue something does not show up in your hangar does not mean its not an object of value.
How would you catagorise a contract ?

Broker fee is not the cost of the tool its a fee.
You don't get broker fees back if you cancel.

A trader with MT can purchase buy orders he can not afford to complete.
in other words he is being given credit to purchase those financial tools.

It may be short term credit that is withdrawn on completion of transactions, but it is still credit.


As every other profession has to survive without game granted credit its not unreasonable to remove it from traders.
Rhivre
TarNec
Invisible Exchequer
#359 - 2013-11-28 16:31:12 UTC
Dav Varan wrote:



As every other profession has to survive without game granted credit its not unreasonable to remove it from traders.



It is not game granted credit at all.

It is COD.

Fluffy Bunny Pic!

Mag's
Azn Empire
#360 - 2013-11-28 16:46:41 UTC
Dav Varan wrote:
Mag's wrote:

But even without the MT skill, a buy order is still not guaranteed for other reasons. So what should we do, nerf those reasons too? Or do you think simply telling people that they shouldn't assume anything and that buy, as well as sell orders, are not guaranteed?


what things make a buy order non guaranteed apart from MT please enlighten.
Someone could sell to it before you, or the person could pull the order before you had chance to utilize it.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.