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[NERF] Serpentis web bonus change

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Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#181 - 2013-11-27 19:36:52 UTC
Xequecal wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Sshhhhh...
Now you have ruined it.
My Arazu with a overheated faction scram and links can kill an MwD and warp ability out to 33 km.
If you factor in a couple sensor damps, not only can't my target run away, he can't target me either.

Clearly, this is OP, and the Arazu must be removed from the game, since it is just not fair.
Guess I better sell this ship too.

While we are at it, guess my Curse with it's 37 km neuts out past cruiser weapon range should be wiped out of the game as well, and don't get me started on my Rapier.

Yes, most of my ships are OP, and should be removed from the game.
Fozzie, Rise, you best get busy. You have a lot of work ahead of you.
And then, when you have hacked every ship down to a "proper balance", you can start all over again, since the ships you started with will be OP to the last ones you "rebalanced".


This is kind of off the 90% web topic, but whatever.

The problem is that because links boost certain things, and the boost is so massive, the things that are NOT boosted by links become terrible. Turrets are boosted by links, because being faster and more agile makes it easier to cut down on transversal. Missiles, however, don't derive any benefit from links, and as such they've become really bad, as links allow you to mitigate almost all of their damage. RLMs were the only real usable missiles and they just got nerfed.

You mention the Curse, the Curse is actually also pretty bad right now because it's not bonused by links while the Gallente and Minmatar recons are.


The point I am making, and you know this already, is that the concept of 90% webs being OP is ridiculous.
If the 90% webs are OP, then so is my Arazu example, or Curse example.
The 90% web bonus is a specialized feature that was on a few selected ships, and those ships require specific skills and fits to work well. To say that because people design tactics to take advantage of them, and say that is OP, is just dumb.
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#182 - 2013-11-27 20:00:36 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:


I should get on my Jita alt and see how much Daredevil prices have dropped in the past hour.
The ship will be worthless within 24 hours.


Don't do crack, kids.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#183 - 2013-11-27 20:12:23 UTC
Sofia Wolf wrote:


tracking enhancers: 9.5 % improved tracking
tracking computer: 30% bonus with scripts
target painter: 30% improved tracking
ship with tracking bonus: 37% at lvl 5
meta 4 or 5 web: 150% effective improved tracking from 60% speed reduction

So yes, I would say there is an argument to be made about common web being too good compared to other alternatives when it comes to handling speed/sig tanking targets.

The first four can be used "out of harm's way" while the web needs to be used up close. I hope they come up with a good bonus for the Daredevil because the ONLY thing it does good is solo.
Jasmine Assasin
The Holy Rollers
#184 - 2013-11-27 20:15:35 UTC
You know you're onto something when the "usual suspects" are in the forums complaining.

---
The one thing I have failed to see mentioned here is Wormholes, and the reactions of these ridiculous webs in conjunction with cap escalations.

These webs are the reason the Phoenix still sucks and are the main reason why the Moros is so damn over used (and not just in WHs either).

I'm not sure web bonuses are even that worthy, if you have to have 90% webs to kill things you are bad at EVE.
Azgard Majik
Ilium Skies
#185 - 2013-11-27 20:16:52 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Instead of continually introducing radical rebalance changes, what if the focus for the next release was actually fixing and addressing the most pressing issues? I'm really (really) trying to be constructive here, but I find that my patience is wearing thin.


Well said.
Naomi Anthar
#186 - 2013-11-27 20:41:06 UTC
So people are THAT ******** that they think ... they think Vigilant / DD / Vindi should be strong because of price.

Well they answer is YES and NO.

Yes because those ships are relatively rare , cannot be mass produced because of limited amount bpcs coming into market. So yeah they should be strong.

But NO because Sansha ships for example are as rare as Serpentis yet they are obnoxiously terrible (including Nightmare - pirate ship should not be stupid incursion tool only).

What i'm trying to say Serpentis/Angel ships are overpowered. And it should stay that WAY.

BUT BRING SANSHA/BLOOD RAIDER and DREAD GURISTAS to SAME level of power.

Yeah pirate ships should be op and strongest around.

Thats right pirate ships should give you more power than T3 or HAC for example.

Problem is that only 2 lineups are really as strong as they should be.

Price of Serpentis ships is result of power they bring in - not the other way.
You need to understand WHY you pay such money for certain ship - stop being idiots people.
Because some of you expect power just because you pump money into something ... damn ...
Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#187 - 2013-11-27 20:52:26 UTC
Naomi Anthar wrote:
So people are THAT ******** that they think ... they think Vigilant / DD / Vindi should be strong because of price.

Well they answer is YES and NO.

Yes because those ships are relatively rare , cannot be mass produced because of limited amount bpcs coming into market. So yeah they should be strong.

But NO because Sansha ships for example are as rare as Serpentis yet they are obnoxiously terrible (including Nightmare - pirate ship should not be stupid incursion tool only).

What i'm trying to say Serpentis/Angel ships are overpowered. And it should stay that WAY.

BUT BRING SANSHA/BLOOD RAIDER and DREAD GURISTAS to SAME level of power.

Yeah pirate ships should be op and strongest around.

Thats right pirate ships should give you more power than T3 or HAC for example.

Problem is that only 2 lineups are really as strong as they should be.

Price of Serpentis ships is result of power they bring in - not the other way.
You need to understand WHY you pay such money for certain ship - stop being idiots people.
Because some of you expect power just because you pump money into something ... damn ...

You're right in that Pirate ships should be more powerful and effective - Even CCP agrees in the roadmap (do they still?).

I think everyone understands the reasoning behind how price relates to rarity and demand, causing expense.
Sister Bliss
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#188 - 2013-11-27 21:08:41 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
Abdiel Kavash wrote:
It's funny how some people's idea of "balancing" is "everything should remain exactly as it is right now".


And its funny that the idea that some of the ships are out of balance meant that CCP had to balance all of them.

Pirate ships are largely fine with the exception of a few.

Angel ships, fine, one and all

Serpentis ships, Vigilant could use some love but the other two are fine

Blood ships, Bhal is fine, cruiser and frigate need work

Guristas ships the Worm needed help, the other two are fine

Sansha's ships, the Nightmare is iconic and perfectly fine as is, the cruiser and frigate need drastic fixes.



People say "if it ain't broke don't fix it" for a reason, the Pilgrim languishes for years untouched and unloved but the good pirate ships, oh no we have to balance those.

Seriously, know when to keep your hands off something because its working fine.


Agree with all of the above though perhaps the Nightmare needs a little love also. I've heard there are plans to nerf the Mach, which really makes me shake my head in disbelief.
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#189 - 2013-11-27 21:13:00 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Your secodn reason means htat Dominix, Typhoon, armageddon, apocayplse, tempest, maesltroms, hyperion, raven, rokh,m scoprion all should have 90% web bonus.


Excuse me, I'm going to go off and dream about a Hyperion with a 90% web bonus.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#190 - 2013-11-27 21:20:20 UTC
Actually..

Webs in general are rather overpowered compared to other EWAR.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#191 - 2013-11-27 21:23:21 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Actually..

Webs in general are rather overpowered compared to other EWAR.


I assume you mean only range-bonused webs?

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#192 - 2013-11-27 21:24:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Nyancat Audeles
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Actually..

Webs in general are rather overpowered compared to other EWAR.


Thanks for supporting this assertion with ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AT ALL. Your statement only applies to range-bonused webs, which only like 2 ships can use. Your assertion is irrelevant to this topic.

Because ECM *totally* doesn't disable you completely from range.

Because Neutralizers *totally* don't make it so you can't activate 1/2 of all weapon types and any other module.

Because Sensor Dampeners *totally* don't prevent you from targeting beyond a pathetic range, or taking a few minutes to target a frigate.

The only offensive E-War I would put BELOW webs are target painters. Which only really help in large fleets.

You obviously don't PvP much.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#193 - 2013-11-27 21:31:59 UTC
Nyancat Audeles wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Actually..

Webs in general are rather overpowered compared to other EWAR.


Thanks for supporting this assertion with ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AT ALL. Your statement only applies to range-bonused webs, which only like 2 ships can use. Your assertion is irrelevant to this topic.

Because ECM *totally* doesn't disable you completely from range.

Because Neutralizers *totally* don't make it so you can't activate 1/2 of all weapon types and any other module.

Because Sensor Dampeners *totally* don't prevent you from targeting beyond a pathetic range, or taking a few minutes to target a frigate.

The only offensive E-War I would put BELOW webs are target painters. Which only really help in large fleets.

You obviously don't PvP much.



well when you think about it .. you can avoid fighting e-war ships if you want .. but you can't avoid fighting any ship with mids can you???

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#194 - 2013-11-27 21:42:26 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
Nyancat Audeles wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Actually..

Webs in general are rather overpowered compared to other EWAR.


Thanks for supporting this assertion with ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AT ALL. Your statement only applies to range-bonused webs, which only like 2 ships can use. Your assertion is irrelevant to this topic.

Because ECM *totally* doesn't disable you completely from range.

Because Neutralizers *totally* don't make it so you can't activate 1/2 of all weapon types and any other module.

Because Sensor Dampeners *totally* don't prevent you from targeting beyond a pathetic range, or taking a few minutes to target a frigate.

The only offensive E-War I would put BELOW webs are target painters. Which only really help in large fleets.

You obviously don't PvP much.



well when you think about it .. you can avoid fighting e-war ships if you want .. but you can't avoid fighting any ship with mids can you???


All of the EWAR I just listed can still be used effectively on a non-bonused ship - and often are.

Case in point:
ECM drones... don't even get me started on those

Neuts used very, very often in PvP- common on everything from frigates to battleships

Sensor Dampeners - used often in kiting frigates (Condor comes to mind first, Hookbill, Breacher, etc etc)

Target painters? Those are a joke unless you have a bunch of battleships in fleet. No one uses those anyways.
Astroniomix
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#195 - 2013-11-27 21:46:03 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
Nyancat Audeles wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Actually..

Webs in general are rather overpowered compared to other EWAR.


Thanks for supporting this assertion with ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AT ALL. Your statement only applies to range-bonused webs, which only like 2 ships can use. Your assertion is irrelevant to this topic.

Because ECM *totally* doesn't disable you completely from range.

Because Neutralizers *totally* don't make it so you can't activate 1/2 of all weapon types and any other module.

Because Sensor Dampeners *totally* don't prevent you from targeting beyond a pathetic range, or taking a few minutes to target a frigate.

The only offensive E-War I would put BELOW webs are target painters. Which only really help in large fleets.

You obviously don't PvP much.



well when you think about it .. you can avoid fighting e-war ships if you want .. but you can't avoid fighting any ship with mids can you???

You CAN stay out of range of most of them.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#196 - 2013-11-27 21:51:04 UTC
Nyancat Audeles wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Actually..

Webs in general are rather overpowered compared to other EWAR.


Thanks for supporting this assertion with ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AT ALL. Your statement only applies to range-bonused webs, which only like 2 ships can use. Your assertion is irrelevant to this topic.

Because ECM *totally* doesn't disable you completely from range.

Because Neutralizers *totally* don't make it so you can't activate 1/2 of all weapon types and any other module.

Because Sensor Dampeners *totally* don't prevent you from targeting beyond a pathetic range, or taking a few minutes to target a frigate.

The only offensive E-War I would put BELOW webs are target painters. Which only really help in large fleets.

You obviously don't PvP much.


I never pvp... (thats actually pretty true these past two months because of Uni but ohh well)


But since you say that... alright, start using damps/ecm instead of webs, lets see how you do.

If you think unbonused webs are worse than unbonused damps/ecm you are not very bright.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Alice Saki
Nocturnal Romance
Cynosural Field Theory.
#197 - 2013-11-27 21:53:11 UTC
Don't Touch Our Vindi's!

Saki.

FREEZE! Drop the LIKES AND WALK AWAY! - Currenly rebuilding gaming machine, I will Return.
Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#198 - 2013-11-27 21:57:09 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Nyancat Audeles wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Actually..

Webs in general are rather overpowered compared to other EWAR.


Thanks for supporting this assertion with ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AT ALL. Your statement only applies to range-bonused webs, which only like 2 ships can use. Your assertion is irrelevant to this topic.

Because ECM *totally* doesn't disable you completely from range.

Because Neutralizers *totally* don't make it so you can't activate 1/2 of all weapon types and any other module.

Because Sensor Dampeners *totally* don't prevent you from targeting beyond a pathetic range, or taking a few minutes to target a frigate.

The only offensive E-War I would put BELOW webs are target painters. Which only really help in large fleets.

You obviously don't PvP much.


I never pvp... (thats actually pretty true these past two months because of Uni but ohh well)


But since you say that... alright, start using damps/ecm instead of webs, lets see how you do.

If you think unbonused webs are worse than unbonused damps/ecm you are not very bright.


You can check my killboard, and other peoples', to see how other EWAR performs.

Have you considered that you might not be very good at PvP or fitting ships? If you know how to fit damps, neuts, and ECM on an unbonused ship, you can do quite a bit of damage - far more than a web.

If a ship with a web went up against a similar sized ship with a neut of its ship class, assuming both fits were the same (except web/neut), the neut ship would absolutely destroy the web ship, no contest.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#199 - 2013-11-27 22:18:17 UTC
Nyancat Audeles wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Nyancat Audeles wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Actually..

Webs in general are rather overpowered compared to other EWAR.


Thanks for supporting this assertion with ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AT ALL. Your statement only applies to range-bonused webs, which only like 2 ships can use. Your assertion is irrelevant to this topic.

Because ECM *totally* doesn't disable you completely from range.

Because Neutralizers *totally* don't make it so you can't activate 1/2 of all weapon types and any other module.

Because Sensor Dampeners *totally* don't prevent you from targeting beyond a pathetic range, or taking a few minutes to target a frigate.

The only offensive E-War I would put BELOW webs are target painters. Which only really help in large fleets.

You obviously don't PvP much.


I never pvp... (thats actually pretty true these past two months because of Uni but ohh well)


But since you say that... alright, start using damps/ecm instead of webs, lets see how you do.

If you think unbonused webs are worse than unbonused damps/ecm you are not very bright.


You can check my killboard, and other peoples', to see how other EWAR performs.

Have you considered that you might not be very good at PvP or fitting ships? If you know how to fit damps, neuts, and ECM on an unbonused ship, you can do quite a bit of damage - far more than a web.

If a ship with a web went up against a similar sized ship with a neut of its ship class, assuming both fits were the same (except web/neut), the neut ship would absolutely destroy the web ship, no contest.


Really? :O

I didn't know that.. damn it.. Now i have to back and un-win a LOT of fights =<

So from that i'm guessing that a punisher is a much better ship than the Incursus no? Seeing how it trades the web for the ability to fit a neut in a utility high?

And a rifter will pull a merlin apart! It doesn't even need cap for its guns! It can just neut away!

And ohh my god a full neut tristan, i will kill battleships in that thing!




Neuts are good, but if you think they are better than webs on a 1/1 basis.. eeeeeeeeeh...

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#200 - 2013-11-27 22:23:07 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Nyancat Audeles wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Nyancat Audeles wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Actually..

Webs in general are rather overpowered compared to other EWAR.


Thanks for supporting this assertion with ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AT ALL. Your statement only applies to range-bonused webs, which only like 2 ships can use. Your assertion is irrelevant to this topic.

Because ECM *totally* doesn't disable you completely from range.

Because Neutralizers *totally* don't make it so you can't activate 1/2 of all weapon types and any other module.

Because Sensor Dampeners *totally* don't prevent you from targeting beyond a pathetic range, or taking a few minutes to target a frigate.

The only offensive E-War I would put BELOW webs are target painters. Which only really help in large fleets.

You obviously don't PvP much.


I never pvp... (thats actually pretty true these past two months because of Uni but ohh well)


But since you say that... alright, start using damps/ecm instead of webs, lets see how you do.

If you think unbonused webs are worse than unbonused damps/ecm you are not very bright.


You can check my killboard, and other peoples', to see how other EWAR performs.

Have you considered that you might not be very good at PvP or fitting ships? If you know how to fit damps, neuts, and ECM on an unbonused ship, you can do quite a bit of damage - far more than a web.

If a ship with a web went up against a similar sized ship with a neut of its ship class, assuming both fits were the same (except web/neut), the neut ship would absolutely destroy the web ship, no contest.


Really? :O

I didn't know that.. damn it.. Now i have to back and un-win a LOT of fights =<

So from that i'm guessing that a punisher is a much better ship than the Incursus no? Seeing how it trades the web for the ability to fit a neut in a utility high?

And a rifter will pull a merlin apart! It doesn't even need cap for its guns! It can just neut away!

And ohh my god a full neut tristan, i will kill battleships in that thing!




Neuts are good, but if you think they are better than webs on a 1/1 basis.. eeeeeeeeeh...

It all depends on the fittings of the ships. But you didn't read what I mentioned clearly:
A Rifter with a Neut vs a Rifter with a Web- the Neut Rifter will win, if the rest of the fit is the same. The same concept applies to just about every ship.

Again, you should consider PvP'ing more. And yes, Tristans are stupid powerful vs many frigates if you know how to fly one, especially w/ neuts.