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Martial Arts of IGS Capsuleers?
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Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#61 - 2013-11-27 02:16:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
Constantin Baracca wrote:
My absolute favorite response to that riddle comes from my sometimes friend Roman.

"When you finally get to compare the power of the mind to the power of steel, someone's beating your brains out with a pipe wrench."


The point being that such a scenario should never be allowed to arise: The acme of martial discipline is victory without ever needing to resort to force at all.

If it comes to violence, somebody somewhere has failed in some way.

Such ideals are rarely if ever accomplished of course, hence why it's very useful to know how to make Mr. Pipe Wrench regret ever picking it up.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders
Agiri Falken
Akagi Initiative
#62 - 2013-11-27 02:16:39 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
Scherezad wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Tell me Veikitamo, what is the riddle of steel?

All that can be destroyed, shall be destroyed.
All that must endure, shall endure.
All that corruption sees shall be corrupt,
and all it passes by stays pure.


Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
The version of the riddle I was taught was much shorter than Scherezad's. Basically it goes thusly:

"Steel isn't strong. Flesh is strong. What is the tool compared to the hand that wields it?"


I don't know about this "riddle of steel" stuff, but my answer to that would be "and what is the hand compared to the mind that guides it?"

I was always taught that a good soldier is one who fights smart. A strong body is the best possible tool you could use, and in the hands of a master, while a poor tool will still work, a good tool will work better... but the hub of martial skill is intellectual. See the opportunities, and the dangers, and the one hidden within the other. Know your foe and what they intend, and how they will respond when they think they see what you intend, and so on.

I've seen so many glib quotes along the lines of "infantry win battles, but artillery wins wars", or "armies win battles, but supply chains win wars" and so on. All nonsense, cooked up by military branches that want to take all the credit.

What wins wars is intelligence. Both in the sense of information, and also in the sense of interpreting that information and putting it to best use. Armies, artillery, supply chains, none of them win wars without the correct guidance of an intelligent leadership.

That principle applies on all scales, not just the largest ones.

Since we're getting into details... Yes, that's pretty much spot on. It starts with an expert, who can use themselves well, then is built on that by proper intelligence and equipment. The final factor is motivation. A well trained, highly motivated, modestly well equipped force will usually outfight a better armed, more numerous opponent who lacks the will to fight. You don't need to outright kill an enemy force in its entirety to defeat them, merely break their desire to fight.
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#63 - 2013-11-27 02:17:32 UTC
I don't think "Drunken bar brawling" before I became capsuleer counts for much, but it's the only CQC experience I suppose I have.

Always found it more useful to learn how to fire a sidearm properly, all those fancy flips and flash kicks are rather useless from 20 yards away.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Agiri Falken
Akagi Initiative
#64 - 2013-11-27 02:30:24 UTC
Caellach Marellus wrote:
I don't think "Drunken bar brawling" before I became capsuleer counts for much, but it's the only CQC experience I suppose I have.

Always found it more useful to learn how to fire a sidearm properly, all those fancy flips and flash kicks are rather useless from 20 yards away.

If you ever see anyone flipping around in a fight like some bad holo actor... PLEASE put a round through them for me. That sort of stupid weakens the gene pool.
Saya Ishikari
Ishukone-Raata Technological Research Institute
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#65 - 2013-11-27 02:39:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Saya Ishikari
Honestly, I'm pretty terrible in hand to hand combat. I've had basic military training, like anyone in the State, but having all the physical ability of a sick puppy limits my options. Firearms are another matter. I rarely miss with my sidearm, and scored marksman on assault rifles. So, it should come as no surprise that I'd much rather rely on a sidearm, and some widgets I've cooked up that help even the odds, than try my luck with anyone barehanded... The marines I have assigned to my ship are considerably more effective as a personal defense.

Does being able to pilot a combat MTAC count? Those, I'm very good with.

"At the end of it all, we have only what we've left in our wake to be remembered by." -Kyoko Ishikari, YC 95 - YC 117
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#66 - 2013-11-27 02:53:53 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
Scherezad wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Tell me Veikitamo, what is the riddle of steel?

All that can be destroyed, shall be destroyed.
All that must endure, shall endure.
All that corruption sees shall be corrupt,
and all it passes by stays pure.


Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
The version of the riddle I was taught was much shorter than Scherezad's. Basically it goes thusly:

"Steel isn't strong. Flesh is strong. What is the tool compared to the hand that wields it?"


I don't know about this "riddle of steel" stuff, but my answer to that would be "and what is the hand compared to the mind that guides it?"

I was always taught that a good soldier is one who fights smart. A strong body is the best possible tool you could use, and in the hands of a master, while a poor tool will still work, a good tool will work better... but the hub of martial skill is intellectual. See the opportunities, and the dangers, and the one hidden within the other. Know your foe and what they intend, and how they will respond when they think they see what you intend, and so on.

I've seen so many glib quotes along the lines of "infantry win battles, but artillery wins wars", or "armies win battles, but supply chains win wars" and so on. All nonsense, cooked up by military branches that want to take all the credit.

What wins wars is intelligence. Both in the sense of information, and also in the sense of interpreting that information and putting it to best use. Armies, artillery, supply chains, none of them win wars without the correct guidance of an intelligent leadership.

That principle applies on all scales, not just the largest ones.


I'll stipulate all that, Verin, if you'll stipulate that the brain is, in fact, Flesh.
Also, if you try rewriting proverbs to a spec that will resist that level of pedantry, I think you'll find they become books.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Saya Ishikari
Ishukone-Raata Technological Research Institute
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#67 - 2013-11-27 03:04:45 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Stitcher wrote:
Scherezad wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Tell me Veikitamo, what is the riddle of steel?

All that can be destroyed, shall be destroyed.
All that must endure, shall endure.
All that corruption sees shall be corrupt,
and all it passes by stays pure.


Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
The version of the riddle I was taught was much shorter than Scherezad's. Basically it goes thusly:

"Steel isn't strong. Flesh is strong. What is the tool compared to the hand that wields it?"


I don't know about this "riddle of steel" stuff, but my answer to that would be "and what is the hand compared to the mind that guides it?"

I was always taught that a good soldier is one who fights smart. A strong body is the best possible tool you could use, and in the hands of a master, while a poor tool will still work, a good tool will work better... but the hub of martial skill is intellectual. See the opportunities, and the dangers, and the one hidden within the other. Know your foe and what they intend, and how they will respond when they think they see what you intend, and so on.

I've seen so many glib quotes along the lines of "infantry win battles, but artillery wins wars", or "armies win battles, but supply chains win wars" and so on. All nonsense, cooked up by military branches that want to take all the credit.

What wins wars is intelligence. Both in the sense of information, and also in the sense of interpreting that information and putting it to best use. Armies, artillery, supply chains, none of them win wars without the correct guidance of an intelligent leadership.

That principle applies on all scales, not just the largest ones.


I'll stipulate all that, Verin, if you'll stipulate that the brain is, in fact, Flesh.
Also, if you try rewriting proverbs to a spec that will resist that level of pedantry, I think you'll find they become books.

I think that's how some of the Raata period books on war came into being... Some irritated monk covering every nit that some general could pick, then dropping a ten kilo book on his table with a "There! Pick THAT apart you schmuck!"

No Hakatain-haan, Pieter-suuolo, I'm not poking at you. The mental image just came to mind is all, and honestly, the nitpicking general did everyone a favor in the end.

"At the end of it all, we have only what we've left in our wake to be remembered by." -Kyoko Ishikari, YC 95 - YC 117
Denak Calamari
Incorruptibles
#68 - 2013-11-27 04:57:11 UTC
Constantin Baracca wrote:
There are still a few places where unarmed skills are incredibly useful. Firearms are extremely easily detectable, whereas modern vibroblades can be made out of all sorts of materials. As such, plenty of people who need concealable weapons that aren't going to be facing a lot of firearms can find knives extremely useful.

Fair point, but I was discussing the usefulness of martial arts in a war scenario, two large forces engage each other in a battleground, not a one-on-one duel(although some nova knifers like to duel a lot. I don't know why).

Veikitamo summed it up well, when you have tons of body armor and enough strength to punch holes through rock, why need elaborate kicks, grabs and punches when you can just crush their skull with the butt of your rifle? And most dropsuits are really heavy and bulky, there's not much room to perform martial moves.
Bryen Verrisai
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#69 - 2013-11-27 05:07:09 UTC
My mother made my sister and myself practice a basic form of an old Jin-Mei style throughout our teen years. She'd apparently learned it during her own military days stationed on Chakaux.

The sparring was pretty good exercise, and It was actually a lot of fun. Until I started losing.
Agiri Falken
Akagi Initiative
#70 - 2013-11-27 05:07:34 UTC
Denak Calamari wrote:
Constantin Baracca wrote:
There are still a few places where unarmed skills are incredibly useful. Firearms are extremely easily detectable, whereas modern vibroblades can be made out of all sorts of materials. As such, plenty of people who need concealable weapons that aren't going to be facing a lot of firearms can find knives extremely useful.

Fair point, but I was discussing the usefulness of martial arts in a war scenario, two large forces engage each other in a battleground, not a one-on-one duel(although some nova knifers like to duel a lot. I don't know why).

Veikitamo summed it up well, when you have tons of body armor and enough strength to punch holes through rock, why need elaborate kicks, grabs and punches when you can just crush their skull with the butt of your rifle? And most dropsuits are really heavy and bulky, there's not much room to perform martial moves.

Hand to hand combat has limited applications in open field warfare, and very few in even close quarters situations. But that's just one set of scenarios and circumstances. There are many others where knowing "elaborate" hand to hand combat is useful, particularly when carrying weapons or obvious armor simply isn't possible. But, that's a comparison of two different worlds, really.
Constantin Baracca
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#71 - 2013-11-27 05:43:54 UTC
Denak Calamari wrote:
Constantin Baracca wrote:
There are still a few places where unarmed skills are incredibly useful. Firearms are extremely easily detectable, whereas modern vibroblades can be made out of all sorts of materials. As such, plenty of people who need concealable weapons that aren't going to be facing a lot of firearms can find knives extremely useful.

Fair point, but I was discussing the usefulness of martial arts in a war scenario, two large forces engage each other in a battleground, not a one-on-one duel(although some nova knifers like to duel a lot. I don't know why).

Veikitamo summed it up well, when you have tons of body armor and enough strength to punch holes through rock, why need elaborate kicks, grabs and punches when you can just crush their skull with the butt of your rifle? And most dropsuits are really heavy and bulky, there's not much room to perform martial moves.


It depends heavily on the skill, I think. I learned Muraga Va, which was common to certain clans of Brutor tribesmen who lived in particularly fraught areas of their space. It's a brutal, rather nasty style which is light on flash and heavy on substance. A great deal of my training involves controlling the hands and feet in close quarters, aiming at parts you can break bare-handed, and the best ways to translate force from ground resistance. Just practice sparring has broken my bones a few times, and fistfights between its practitioners tend to have crippling and often deadly results.

I'm rather terrible at it compared to my cousins, who practice it a bit more regularly and have better need to employ it. It's not a very pretty sight, seeing it in action, but I'd rather be one of them than to be practiced at rifle-clubbing if it came down to it. The scenes of butt-stroking soldiers in training exercises looks suspiciously like the incoming blow that begins half of the more damaging counterattacks in Muraga Va.

I think the better part of the point is that we, as capsuleers, simply aren't often in that much mortal danger. When we are, we're generally armed with firearms and have plenty of ammo. Even if we ran out, I'd assume your average capsuleer would run before engaging in a melee, regardless of their physical augmentation. The situation simply rarely comes up for us specifically. It's probably much more common for foot soldiers, and I'm fairly sure that whatever they're teaching DUST soldiers makes even the nastier bits of my training look like a pleasant ballet. I imagine kicking knees in the other direction is still as effective as ever when you're suddenly face-to-face with an enemy.

Unfortunately, I excelled at fencing rather than fisticuffs. If there is a weapon devoid of practical battlefield use, it's probably the sword. Unless you end up dueling another swordsman, you're very rarely going to encounter a direct use for the technique. It's still taught to quite a bit Amarrians of any sort of status. It's still a method of conflict resolution to apply for trial by combat to correct some slight. It's always good to be practiced in it as an Amarrian, although it's becoming more common to have a pistol duel, and is already more common for capsuleers to simply settle their differences in ship-to-ship dueling.

"What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?"

-Matthew 16:26
Denak Calamari
Incorruptibles
#72 - 2013-11-27 07:22:04 UTC
Denak Calamari wrote:
Fair point, but I was discussing the usefulness of martial arts in a war scenario, two large forces engage each other in a battleground, not a one-on-one duel(although some nova knifers like to duel a lot. I don't know why).

Veikitamo summed it up well, when you have tons of body armor and enough strength to punch holes through rock, why need elaborate kicks, grabs and punches when you can just crush their skull with the butt of your rifle? And most dropsuits are really heavy and bulky, there's not much room to perform martial moves.
Constantin Baracca wrote:
It depends heavily on the skill, I think. I learned Muraga Va, which was common to certain clans of Brutor tribesmen who lived in particularly fraught areas of their space. It's a brutal, rather nasty style which is light on flash and heavy on substance. A great deal of my training involves controlling the hands and feet in close quarters, aiming at parts you can break bare-handed, and the best ways to translate force from ground resistance. Just practice sparring has broken my bones a few times, and fistfights between its practitioners tend to have crippling and often deadly results.

I'm rather terrible at it compared to my cousins, who practice it a bit more regularly and have better need to employ it. It's not a very pretty sight, seeing it in action, but I'd rather be one of them than to be practiced at rifle-clubbing if it came down to it. The scenes of butt-stroking soldiers in training exercises looks suspiciously like the incoming blow that begins half of the more damaging counterattacks in Muraga Va.

I think the better part of the point is that we, as capsuleers, simply aren't often in that much mortal danger. When we are, we're generally armed with firearms and have plenty of ammo. Even if we ran out, I'd assume your average capsuleer would run before engaging in a melee, regardless of their physical augmentation. The situation simply rarely comes up for us specifically. It's probably much more common for foot soldiers, and I'm fairly sure that whatever they're teaching DUST soldiers makes even the nastier bits of my training look like a pleasant ballet. I imagine kicking knees in the other direction is still as effective as ever when you're suddenly face-to-face with an enemy.

Unfortunately, I excelled at fencing rather than fisticuffs. If there is a weapon devoid of practical battlefield use, it's probably the sword. Unless you end up dueling another swordsman, you're very rarely going to encounter a direct use for the technique. It's still taught to quite a bit Amarrians of any sort of status. It's still a method of conflict resolution to apply for trial by combat to correct some slight. It's always good to be practiced in it as an Amarrian, although it's becoming more common to have a pistol duel, and is already more common for capsuleers to simply settle their differences in ship-to-ship dueling.

Come to think of it, quite a few Amarr down here have requested a nova sword, basically a nova knife with the size and length of a sword. Does it have any practical use? Probably not. Does a glowing hot blade that can slice through even the thickest dropsuit armor with ease look impressive? Definitely.

And contrary to popular belief, clone soldiers receive little training when they gain their "immortality". The great majority of clone soldiers have some kind of military or combat background, any training you receive on the use of firearms, martial arts or any else is given during your pre-clone soldier training. When you get recruited into the clone soldier program, you get some training to handle the consciousness transfers, and then you get shoved into your first clone. After that they show a little how the NeoCom works and then leave you to figure out the rest.

But back to the topic, I'd assume most self-defense training in the military focuses on the quick incapacitation of the enemy, whether it be from a kick to the groin, breaking their kneecaps, snapping their neck or something similar. Hand-to-hand combat is used as a last resort, and it is also emphasized that it's better to run away and get yourself in a more advantageous position rather than engage in hand-to-hand combat. In clone soldier combat, melee is used more to "humiliate" your enemy rather than as an actual last resort, and to show off to your friends by sneaking behind a heavily armored dropsuit and crushing his skull with the butt of your rifle.

But what we lack in complex self-defense maneuvers, we apparently compensate in cruelty and sadism.
Samoth Egnoled
Caldari Provisions
#73 - 2013-11-27 07:47:55 UTC
While drop suits are heavily armored, Being able to hold your own if your suit fails or you get caught off guard. Being able to out manuver a drop suit and take it down can be just as useful as the drop suit itself. People tend not to want to get too close to you when they have just seen you take down a suit unarmed...
Arnulf Ogunkoya
Clan Ogunkoya
Electus Matari
#74 - 2013-11-27 08:30:06 UTC
I practice a form known as Ogun Oke, more colloquially Iron Defiance. It mainly focusses around the use of one or two single edged knives, usually with a blade catcher mounted along the blunt edge. It also has an unarmed form, but that is the core of the style. Sweeps and kicks seek to open up the opponent for the knives.

It's a Minmatar art, developed to use a tool as a weapon and possible to be trained covertly. I still follow it to keep my clones in shape and to help me focus. I have no illusions about it's use to me in an actual attempt on my life outside pod. I have a security team for that. I do carry a sidearm, but that's more a habit from my RMS days when keeping, maintaining and training with one was part of the discipline imposed on a cadet.

Regards, Arnulf Ogunkoya.
Agiri Falken
Akagi Initiative
#75 - 2013-11-27 08:30:09 UTC
Samoth Egnoled wrote:
While drop suits are heavily armored, Being able to hold your own if your suit fails or you get caught off guard. Being able to out manuver a drop suit and take it down can be just as useful as the drop suit itself. People tend not to want to get too close to you when they have just seen you take down a suit unarmed...

Guessing you're a DUST trooper. If not, you've been watching too many holovids.
Samoth Egnoled
Caldari Provisions
#76 - 2013-11-27 08:45:42 UTC
Agiri Falken wrote:
Samoth Egnoled wrote:
While drop suits are heavily armored, Being able to hold your own if your suit fails or you get caught off guard. Being able to out manuver a drop suit and take it down can be just as useful as the drop suit itself. People tend not to want to get too close to you when they have just seen you take down a suit unarmed...

Guessing you're a DUST trooper. If not, you've been watching too many holovids.


Agiri, To clarify.. While I do practice on a regular basis, I do not claim that feat myself. However i have hear it accomplished. My apologies for any confusion.
Agiri Falken
Akagi Initiative
#77 - 2013-11-27 09:20:53 UTC
Samoth Egnoled wrote:
Agiri Falken wrote:
Samoth Egnoled wrote:
While drop suits are heavily armored, Being able to hold your own if your suit fails or you get caught off guard. Being able to out manuver a drop suit and take it down can be just as useful as the drop suit itself. People tend not to want to get too close to you when they have just seen you take down a suit unarmed...

Guessing you're a DUST trooper. If not, you've been watching too many holovids.


Agiri, To clarify.. While I do practice on a regular basis, I do not claim that feat myself. However i have hear it accomplished. My apologies for any confusion.


A level headed response and honesty? Enough currency right there that an apology isn't necessary, but the clarification is appreciated. Fight on.
Cyrus Alabel
Azure Wrath
#78 - 2013-11-27 10:54:04 UTC
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:
Goddess almighty, is there a capsuleer who ISN'T trained in martial arts?


I'd bet ISK on some capsuleers having the limits of their martial art experience to be watching cheap holoflicks.

Think we had a thread on that a few months back.
Iwan Terpalen
Doomheim
#79 - 2013-11-27 12:00:21 UTC
Cyrus Alabel wrote:
..capsuleers having the limits of their martial art experience to be watching cheap holoflicks..

Someone called?
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#80 - 2013-11-27 12:13:07 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
I'll stipulate all that, Verin, if you'll stipulate that the brain is, in fact, Flesh.
Also, if you try rewriting proverbs to a spec that will resist that level of pedantry, I think you'll find they become books.


I'm not sure the word "stipulate" means quite what you think it does. No matter, you're entirely right of course - I fell into the old trap of mind/body dualism. An easy mistake for an old Empyrean.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders