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Incursion Concept/Toy/Hobby/Thing
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Wedgetail
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2013-11-26 12:13:16 UTC
Ok, So i got bored about a month ago and decided I'd try my hand at redesigning a system I've thought could always use a bit of work - EvE, being full of good ideas that are terribly implemented, as well as being a system/environment i'm reasonably familiar with, became my case study.

Did pass this on/offer to pass this on to a few people earlier in the month to get a few general impressions, the responses i did get were good but not particularly informative as to the design concept's quality or stability.

SO! to that end I've figured i'll throw it in here, (something I wanted to avoid at the time due to AI content descriptions, knowing the AI spoils the fun of the combat a bit)

the reason being is i figure those of you that watch this space with half a mind for system design will be able to give me a few pointers as to how viable this kind of concept is and why/why not, I have studied systems design a bit myself but have no real backing of experience in the field to confirm what I've been taught.

Bear in mind also there are no real technicals or specifics in this doc, it's a description of the broad concept it does explain a few intricacies but uses very few specific number values/grids/tables/charts, as its purpose was simply to describe in words the environment i was trying to create.

link to a google doc for those interested is here:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1QFaX7Ctw0Z30v82DLYWMTF_RyFHHfcDZFd_gzseYc1o/

anything you guys can point out regarding how this'd sit within the environment would be appreciated.
NEONOVUS
Mindstar Technology
Goonswarm Federation
#2 - 2013-11-26 18:15:30 UTC
Seems interesting notion.
I would think it something fun for the next redo.
Wedgetail
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2013-11-27 03:38:19 UTC
mm it's something that seems to sit well enough outside of the system, it's when it's working in the system I'm concerned with, though this was never really intended to be used, as I said in the OP it's just something I threw together out of boredom.
Freelancer117
So you want to be a Hero
#4 - 2013-11-27 15:01:13 UTC
Would love to see different spawn waves enter incursions based on capsuleer fleet tactics, with a max set number per site difficulty ofc Cool

Eve online is :

A) mining simulator B) glorified chatroom C) spreadsheets online

D) CCP Games Pay to Win at skill leveling, with instant gratification

http://eve-radio.com//images/photos/3419/223/34afa0d7998f0a9a86f737d6.jpg

http://bit.ly/1egr4mF
Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
#5 - 2013-11-27 16:35:42 UTC
OK, just started reading and I'd like to ask a genuine questions of the OP:

1) What is your incursion experience or level of incursion experience?

2) At what level were you operating in the incursion fleet e.g. rookie, novice, expert, VG Vet, HQ Warrior, ?

3) What community were you flying with e.g. Shield, Armour, Hull (for only the brave and real men OFC Blink)?

4) What role\roles did you assume in the incursion fleet e.g. Logi, DPS, Sniper, FC, MTAC, DDD, MTAC-E, etc

5) What do you believe to be the purpose, not IG\Role related, but overall advantage\benefit that incursions provide?

This will help to set my state of mind when reading and to tailor any comment or feedback that I can give.

[b]Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station[/b] Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up!
Wedgetail
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2013-11-27 17:21:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Wedgetail
this is a bit lengthy, but hopefully it will answer your questions with a suitable degree of detail X)


first: I was the fleet commander that lead the first winning mother ship fleet January 20 ish 2011(?), scoring top LP for that encounter and several afterwards, and also FC'd the first cleared TCRC run (that i know of) (stephonUK being the second concerted attempt that i know of some time later)

second: as in first, the fleet commander - my entrance into incursions was right out of the 2010 live events fleets focused around the lead up to incursions as such grideris was also by then commanding the fleets and between us we maintained an assault fleet in algintal for the better part of three days in order to reverse engineer the system and determine universal fleet requirements. (rules like 2 logi per 10 ships, and 70% resistances - simple but important stuff we'd need for building fleets later)

at that time I was about as expert as anyone could have been, i did not focus primarily on any particular level of site until much later, but the first sites run were assaults, due to the fact i needed a manageable degree of difficulty as well as an environment that could support a decent number of pilots (i had about 200 odd to cater for at any point in time at that stage, and wanted to involve as many as i could reasonably manage)

(if i recall correctly grideris had formed the fleet earlier that day before my game time, and i inherited it from him.)

and have been watching, though not as an active participant in, the development of incursion fleet doctrines since.

third: my own, at various stages i commanded the FCORD armor fleets that later decided to become TDF, transitioned to shields and vanguard blitzing around the time of BTL's formation as an alliance (to prove a point to TDF) and the smaller blitzing teams, and continued with whatever i felt was more convenient/fun since.


fourth: covered in second, all of them with exception of the MTACs which was left to the marauders we used at the time.

fifth: the purpose, of incursions depends on who you ask, my understanding of them is to provide fleet focused PVE for pilots who may not otherwise be able to access the kinds of fleets used in other areas of eve, as such i believe them to be first and foremost a learning/teaching tool to be enjoyed by the broadest scope of players possible, in order to make available more facets of eve's game play.

secondary to this they were to provide older players with some PVE content of higher difficulty and purpose than missions, something to provide them a challenge to solve and overcome, much like raid dungeons in other games - though this is very much a secondary purpose i see it as being no less important.


additionally:

my aim with this, was to restructure incursions to more accurately represent the larger interconnected battles they were based upon. to reform the environment in such a way as to broaden the scope of battle scenarios and fleet tactics employed to add life time to the content's development cycle, by giving the players an environment that provides a more varied set of encounters and circumstances in which to work with and fight in.
Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
#7 - 2013-11-27 17:29:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Maximus Aerelius
OK, nearly at the end but just wanted to note these points thus far:

Wedgetail wrote:
In order to broaden the scope of incursions beyond the simple meaningless isk grind faced by current pilots the entirety of the incursion battle space layout needs to be redesigned.


This actually quite annoyed me. To some it may seem to be a "meaningless isk grind" and if that is the case then you should probably stop doing Incursions and go and do something else. FW always has a steady churn or people looking for a brawl. I actually enjoy flying with the community I fly with and not as often as I'd like and to me it's not about the ISK, it's about the people, the experience, calming those nerves before looking to find a PVP Fleet to fly with, to learn Fleet Operations and Behavior, the language, lingo, format, requirements, how my skills match up, how I react to certain situations, what I can do when and where and whats a worst case scenario so as you can see more than just a "meaningless isk grind".

Wedgetail wrote:
Cruiser Class:
Type 1: Model Logistics cruiser, medium to heavy remote repair for medium to large scale fighting, 800-1.2 km/s, 40-50 km repair range, moderate hp


My Basilisk with a decent AB bearing in mind that a Basilisk's tank comes from Speed and buffer gets up to about 760m\s. The NPC Logistics in your scenario goes at 800-1.2kms. Albeit my Basi has a longer rep range of 71kms but that is only +20km on the NPC rep range for a -40-440m\s.

Wedgetail wrote:
So the players will need to comprise their fleets of ships that can fight in a wide range of conditions that cannot be easily predicted ahead of time, in line with pvp fleet logic used by players in combat.


I think on this point you have missed the point entirely. The idea behind this is that this isn't PVP and isn't designed to simulate PVP. There is plenty of that in EVE already. When you see the real purpose behind Incursions outside of the Lore then you'll see this too and it's not about the ISK grind for some if not most people.

If you want to make this into a Psuedo-PVP then why not just make them into FW Plex style affairs. They are designed as PVE for a reason and that is that you can have doctrines like they have in organised PVP Fleets, similar doctrine ships can fly together in "attack packs", and people get a flavor for larger fleet engagements and what those FC's require from Pilots. PVP fleets that go against each other generally have, I believe, inside intel into what the other side is fielding due to spies etc. This would be denied to Incursion communities because their fleets are not like PVP fleets and shouldn't be compared.

At the end now:

On your general "quasi-PVP" proposal:

Incursions involve PVP when they appear in Low Sec\Null Sec systems. I've personally seen a 40-man HQ fleet get whelped in a Low-Sec incursion and most take the pod express home. It happens, it doesn't need to happen in High Sec as well and when those Nado Ganks tip up and take on an Incursion Fleet you can see the results on KB's.

Aside from the above comments things I do like:

The Defensive Sites in addition to Offensive is a good idea.

All in all you have to regard Incursions as a "try before you buy" for fleet operations and organised larger scale warfare but in a PVE environment. I'd never flown Logistics before I started with the Incursion community I fly with and I would love to try it in a real combat situation now I know how the damn thing works, what to do, when, how and to whom but obviously theres still some learning that'll come from PVP that Incursions can't give. What it does provide is an insight, a toe in the water for those interested.

If you wanted to make anything more dynamic why not chose L4 Missions? Those have the same guides on the internet, the same procedures except you don't rely on anyone but yourself and some bot and AFK them. Incursions and not easy to fly in, are a rush for quite some time and take a lot of discipline and skill training to be efficient at.

Setting the bar too high would encourage the "Elitist Fit Pickers" from never picking anything except the best for their fleets in order to achieve the maximum result or victory. Those trying to get to that "Elite Tier" would bore easily and not bother after a while and pursue other activities and so you have a small group of people fielding the highest end of fits and reaping all the rewards due to the uncertain nature of what maybe encountered.

Random thoughts, I know, and not meant as a slating but really just my thoughts on your proposal. Always willing to discuss anything I have written.

[b]Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station[/b] Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up!
Wedgetail
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2013-11-27 17:58:24 UTC


Wedgetail wrote:
In order to broaden the scope of incursions beyond the simple meaningless isk grind faced by current pilots the entirety of the incursion battle space layout needs to be redesigned.


truth, my wording here is poor form for a design and overly personal, my intention was to relay 'the underlying reason people flew the way they did' as i saw it, I am in agreement with you that incursions are about the pilots and social aspect and always should be, however at the same time I'm well aware that there are many pilots that use them for the purpose of finances, and this has lead over the course of their existence to a great deal of ill intent developing between groups.

Wedgetail wrote:
Cruiser Class:
Type 1: Model Logistics cruiser, medium to heavy remote repair for medium to large scale fighting, 800-1.2 km/s, 40-50 km repair range, moderate hp


place holder value - its purpose was to be 'not inconsequential but not the same as a player ship' - my aim was to avoid making these fights purely about destroying logistics ships, but the collection of hull and role variations as a whole was merely to serve as a description of 'the selection range' the AI would have available for forming its spawns.

Wedgetail wrote:
So the players will need to comprise their fleets of ships that can fight in a wide range of conditions that cannot be easily predicted ahead of time, in line with pvp fleet logic used by players in combat.


this is not so much intended to 'simulate PVP' but to 'emulate the kinds of forces fleets implement and face' to do this i used PVP logic as a model, as prior to wormhole space fleet logic did not occur for PVE content, the purpose is to 'teach players about various fleet roles and how they are used by having the AI use similar tools the players do' while 'providing an additional degree of difficulty' for older players - it is similar AI design logic used in the creation of the sleeper combat AI used by these NPC's just applied to the fleet formation level.


Maximus Aerelius wrote:


At the end now:

On your general "quasi-PVP" proposal:


Of this I am aware, truthfully the pvp segment was to act as an optional component, i constructed it for the sake of providing 'more options of play style for those interested' it was to be a more focused form of aggressive fighting than in low sec and its intention was to allow sansha nation (pirate) loyalists a role within the content they were never allowed, but it does stand on very shaky ground and most of the system the document describes needs to be altered to support this concept in order to prevent it breaking.

(continued in second post soon ish)
Wedgetail
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2013-11-27 18:00:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Wedgetail
Maximus Aerelius wrote:


All in all you have to regard Incursions as a "try before you buy"


agreed, and this was one of my considerations - by widening the scope of engagement types i aimed to provide an environment that helped broaden the understanding of how a fleet functions and why, most of my fleet training was from watching my opposition employ a certain tactic against me - thus giving me the need to think of a counter, and i wanted to provide this to other players.

Maximus Aerelius wrote:


If you wanted to make anything more dynamic why not chose L4 Missions?


the reason for this was one of content complexity, the AI logic alone with some additional sets for NPC variation would suffice for mission content and variation, much of the concepts that apply to incursions can be scaled down for mission content, and so i decided to function on a system that could conceivably benefit both.

Maximus Aerelius wrote:


Setting the bar too high would encourage the "Elitist Fit Pickers"


This occurs already as a product of the human need to refine and make progress, though the purpose of the AI was to be adaptive in response, thus all fleets were to meet an 'equal' challenge (within limits) the idea being to draw away from raw power of individual hulls to bring attention more towards 'how to make use of the hulls you have'

Maximus Aerelius wrote:

Random thoughts, I know, and not meant as a slating but really just my thoughts on your proposal. Always willing to discuss anything I have written.


not at all this is very much part of what i was looking for, short of implementation constraints this helps immensely in revealing my oversights (most notably my tendency to over personalise in my writing)

[edit]

as far as the logi speed was concerned it was to allow for the possibility of 'micro-warp drive logistics' but without making them too fast, all the numbers there are 'upper and lower limit ranges for all fits' - in terms of eve MWD logistics were often used with older kite/nano gangs of vagabonds/claymores/sleipnirs - which is where i took inspiration from

[/edit]
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#10 - 2013-11-27 20:55:30 UTC
I think the biggest thing I'd point out is simply the raw numbers offered for wave spawns per site type would necessitate much larger fleets to be formed up then is currently done, just for a raw example, VG OTA currently has, what, about 30 ships that spawn in total? yet the proposed spawn waves in this would be approximately half that number per wave... you'd be looking at wanting to at least double current VG fleet numbers thereby to effectively/efficiently combat it.

second note, for the pvp/LP thing, I'd think I'd set it to non-pvp propenents still recieve some LP, but the PvP proponents recieve significantly larger rewards of LP.

Overall though, I like this!
Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
#11 - 2013-11-27 22:16:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Maximus Aerelius
Wedgetail I read all your responses and I honestly appreciate the way in which you responded.

I can tell from reading both your replies and your document that you want to steer this to make it better and I can only applaud that.

I do think a lot of the mechanics you have spoken about would put a massive load of the servers (but what the hell do I know) but that's not to say it shouldn't be discussed and I'd encourage it.

In regards to using the various mechanics that you've used, I think that a way to "dry run" this would be to incorporate each of these into a separate live event. I believe form reading various Dev Blogs and posts that the current set of tool that were used for the Incursion LE and prior are all now broken so these would need to be developed, used and tested and applied to a LE to give people a taste of what to expect from a mechanics front. Spawning Worm Holes is something that was suggested after the last LE and is being looked into I read so that may come to pass.

I would go so afar as to say leave Sansha Incursions alone, let them be as they are as an introduction for noobs into fleet and operating in greater numbers (as I was at the start of this year and have learnt so much) and spawn new Incursions in this style such as Guristas or other pirate factions. Possibly even present a new threat to the cluster from a rogue Jovian sect that escaped the disease?

I appreciate that you've tried to cover and adapt the current incursions into having a PVP element as a side-note perhaps but my opinion would be that this new format of bridging the gap of incursion to incursion alla FW PVP would work better as a new type of incursion.

And as for allying with Factions, I love this idea! This would really appeal to the RPG pilots out there and was what was sadly lacking in the last LE "Operation Spectacle". Pirate Loyalists getting blown up by the factions they had gone to protect was not what was expected I don't think.

I have respect for you and the work that you put into the original Incursion mechanics and I have often wondered "Who worked this out and where are they now" when I have been in Incursions and listening to the FC guide a Trainee FC on ship placements and what to expect.

A good document that has certainly raised plenty of points, ideas and suggestions for discussion.

[b]Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station[/b] Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up!
Wedgetail
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2013-11-28 01:11:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Wedgetail
Pelea Ming wrote:
yet the proposed spawn waves in this would be approximately half that number per wave... you'd be looking at wanting to at least double current VG fleet numbers thereby to effectively/efficiently combat it.

second note, for the pvp/LP thing, I'd think I'd set it to non-pvp propenents still recieve some LP, but the PvP proponents recieve significantly larger rewards of LP.


Yeah I have tried to avoid stating solid numbers for these parts as I'm unsure as to what the propper balance should be, numbers are mentioned to provide a very basic picture of 'what's intended to happen' but the scale's a question that still needs answering.

as for the reward scales, I believe I've said inside the document that i 'have no good system yet' and your point is one of the reasons why, it's the component I have been most concerned with balancing out and have not been able to reach what i consider to be a solid conclusion.

the idea behind not giving LP to non enlisted pilots was because 'they're not really being loyal to a faction' by not signing up.
so i had intended to treat them a more of a mercenary force, and mercs are paid with isk (usually) :D

Maximus Aerelius wrote:


I do think a lot of the mechanics you have spoken about would put a massive load of the servers (but what the hell do I know) but that's not to say it shouldn't be discussed and I'd encourage it.



mm the method I intended to use for a lot of the AI work is reasonably simple but it occurs for every fleet instance at wave spawn (it can happen as one wave is being destroyed, but it still means server's thinking more) but as this is an AI that requires the logic to do what it does, there's not really a way around it. (that i'm aware of)

Maximus Aerelius wrote:


In regards to using the various mechanics that you've used, I think that a way to "dry run" this would be to incorporate each of these into a separate live event. I believe form reading various Dev Blogs and posts that the current set of tool that were used for the Incursion LE and prior are all now broken



They've never been fixed :) they were broken when dropbear used them, most were missing entirely having not been used since ISD AURORA - while they have used the mechanics post incursion expansion there's a fair chance most of them don't actually exist anymore.

as for using a live event based around this format: that could work well - with proper thought and execution X)

Maximus Aerelius wrote:


I would go so afar as to say leave Sansha Incursions alone, let them be as they are as an introduction for noobs into fleet and operating in greater numbers


I purposefully based the document around a mechanic set/content that already existed within eve, believe i did make mention to using this same logic for other factions and just used sansha as an example case - the problem with spawning other faction incursions under the current implementation is the availability of space to spawn them in - so there can't be too many different types at once (yet) to this end i kept the design as.. 'universally applicable' as i could manage.

In regards to the PVP component aye - what i wanted to achieve was a competitive side where the empires could lose the incursion and the pirates win, which would need a near full re scale re work of the system i've proposed to compensate for having two sides, but it'd work the same way - i wanted to avoid a non-pvp contest as they are two warring sides, but at the same time have since decided the system could work without direct pvp..though in my mind much less fun X)

In terms of events, the players made better, and more persistent opponents than the devs ever can - that they missed out on a mention when incursions where hastily developed, this upset many of us greatly, so giving them a role was always something i've wanted to do it was just a question of 'how'.