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Production certificates/mastery
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Irregessa
Obfuscation and Reflections
#1 - 2013-11-26 17:50:29 UTC
In the skills section there is a certificate tab, which lists the various categories of certificates upon which the ISIS mastery levels are based. Some are not used in ISIS, like production. I had commented on this particular series in the Test server forum back before release, but now that it is officially in the wild, I will post here, as it seems the most appropriate location.

To give you some background:

Irregessa can build every ship in the game except titans and 3 of the 4 t3 cruisers. She can manufacture every module/rig/subsystem/POS structure/drone in the game except for the storyline modules that require level V in either encryption or the specific racial (sleeper, etc.) technology skill . She can invent/reverse engineer any t2/t3 ship or module.

So,

Production mastery level 1. That is what she rates. The one thing holding her back from level 2 is not having anchoring IV. Check and see what production arrays require anchoring above level II. Hint: There aren't any. The only things that require anchoring that high are medium/large mobile warp disruptor bubbles and level V is a prerequisite for Outpost Construction (and POS gunner, FWIW).

Everyone who does production trains Outpost Construction, right? Because you need it at level III in order to have Production mastery level 3. No requirement for Capital Ship Construction. No requirement for Industrial Construction. But being able to take something that can only be obtained by purchasing it whole from an NPC (the outpost foundation/monument/pedestal upgrade platforms) and bolt them onto a station in nullsec is essential for being skilled in production.

SMH
Nalelmir Ahashion
Industrial Management and Engineering
Mouth Trumpet Cavalry
#2 - 2013-11-26 22:19:19 UTC
most of those cert are useless, you'll want them if you want to be "expert" in specific area in which you want to be able to do every possible thing in every possible way...

mostly you can ignore most just see which skills helps you and which don't etc..
Irregessa
Obfuscation and Reflections
#3 - 2013-11-27 00:18:06 UTC
Well, yes, most of that is assumed to be the case. But if they are going to go through the effort of having them in the first place, it would be nice for them to makes sense. Are we to take it that all of them are just fetid dreams of a mad Frenchman?
Lia Danna
Perkone
Caldari State
#4 - 2013-11-27 03:01:23 UTC
Irregessa wrote:
Are we to take it that all of them are just fetid dreams of a mad Frenchman?


Pretty much.

Certificates are at best, a half-decent starting point, but I would never recommend anyone follow them exactly. Who cares, though? It's not like they matter in any real sense.
Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#5 - 2013-11-27 03:29:31 UTC
The new certificates do precisely the same thing the old certificates used to - confuse new players into thinking they need a bajilion SP in useless skills to be decently good at anything.
Caldari 5
D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F. S.A.S
Affirmative.
#6 - 2013-11-27 04:15:03 UTC
You think that's messed up, I have a toon that doesn't have Amarr Frieghter at all and has Level 4 Mastery in the Providence.
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
#7 - 2013-11-27 16:24:13 UTC
Sometimes, I get awarded random certificates, even though I haven't trained any relevant skill.
Elena Thiesant
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2013-11-27 18:57:26 UTC
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3870568#post3870568
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
... remember Industry Certificates will have to wait until Rubicon 1.1 though.
Irregessa
Obfuscation and Reflections
#9 - 2013-11-28 22:43:21 UTC
Fair enough. We shall see what Rubicon 1.1 brings from the Mad Frenchman
Irregessa
Obfuscation and Reflections
#10 - 2013-11-28 22:57:51 UTC
Caldari 5 wrote:
You think that's messed up, I have a toon that doesn't have Amarr Frieghter at all and has Level 4 Mastery in the Providence.


I think you will find that the icon is greyed out compared to others. It is an indication that you would have mastery 4 if you actually had skill in the ship. The skills that give mastery for freighters are the same as the ones for mastery levels for the shuttles.
Dorian Wylde
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#11 - 2013-11-30 03:11:38 UTC
Irregessa wrote:
Well, yes, most of that is assumed to be the case. But if they are going to go through the effort of having them in the first place, it would be nice for them to makes sense. Are we to take it that all of them are just fetid dreams of a mad Frenchman?



It would, but they won't. The first iteration had pointless certs, and the new iteration does too. I need mining drones and tanking skills for industrial ship mastery, despite not using an indy to mine nor ever wasting time trying to tank one.

And they won't because while some of these seem obvious to us, there will never be a cert system that everyone agrees with. There will always be people who say you have to have this skill to fly this ship or you're wasting your time, and just as many crying that such a skill is worthless for the ship at hand and you're a fool to train it.
Lord Xyon
Team Hemi
#12 - 2013-12-02 16:22:13 UTC
Caldari 5 wrote:
You think that's messed up, I have a toon that doesn't have Amarr Frieghter at all and has Level 4 Mastery in the Providence.


Kind of like the Tengu Mastery requires Level 5 Electronic Drone Warfare. Yet in no possible subsystem for the Tengu can you ever even have drones.
JetCord
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#13 - 2013-12-02 17:02:07 UTC
i think whoever are doing the cert really need to talk to player and maybe fly the ship that they are giving the cert into. Some if not all are pointless and down right confusing esp to the new players
Omega Flames
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#14 - 2013-12-02 19:22:12 UTC
Things like drones for any non drone boat need to start being req at lv 4 or at best lv 3 of a mastery...req'ing them at lv 1 for those ships is just dumb....thou i do like rubbing it in that I have shuttle mastery 5 while everyone else I know doesnt Cool
Caldari 5
D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F. S.A.S
Affirmative.
#15 - 2013-12-03 01:17:24 UTC
Lord Xyon wrote:
Caldari 5 wrote:
You think that's messed up, I have a toon that doesn't have Amarr Frieghter at all and has Level 4 Mastery in the Providence.


Kind of like the Tengu Mastery requires Level 5 Electronic Drone Warfare. Yet in no possible subsystem for the Tengu can you ever even have drones.

You might want to look at the Rifling Launcher Patter Sub system
http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/item.php?type_id=30123
Irregessa
Obfuscation and Reflections
#16 - 2013-12-03 02:32:18 UTC
Or how about needing Advanced Drone Interfacing to have even level 1 for any carrier. The only people I know who have that skill trained are the ones that rat with their carriers.
Caldari 5
D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F. S.A.S
Affirmative.
#17 - 2013-12-03 03:56:36 UTC
Irregessa wrote:
Or how about needing Advanced Drone Interfacing to have even level 1 for any carrier. The only people I know who have that skill trained are the ones that rat with their carriers.

Isn't that the Pre-req for Drone Control Units? A Module which can only be fit to Carriers and Super Carriers? This sounds like a normal kind of thing to have on the Masteries, Kinda like having the Portal Generator Skills on a BlackOp, it just makes sense to have it there.
Irregessa
Obfuscation and Reflections
#18 - 2013-12-03 13:27:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Irregessa
Caldari 5 wrote:
Irregessa wrote:
Or how about needing Advanced Drone Interfacing to have even level 1 for any carrier. The only people I know who have that skill trained are the ones that rat with their carriers.

Isn't that the Pre-req for Drone Control Units? A Module which can only be fit to Carriers and Super Carriers? This sounds like a normal kind of thing to have on the Masteries, Kinda like having the Portal Generator Skills on a BlackOp, it just makes sense to have it there.


Yes, except that if you actually fly carriers and supers in fleets, you don't use them. You have much more important modules to use in your high slots, like remote reppers, remote cap transfers, neuts, smartbombs and drone link augmentors. Drone Control Units are pretty much only used by people who rat with their carriers. Just because that skill is used for a module that is only used on carriers is besides the point. Should the skill for using clone vat bays be required for level 1 mastery of the rorqual and the titans, as those are the only ships capable of using them? BlackOps primary purpose is the covert bridge, so it would make sense to require the skill for it. Carriers have a much broader utility, and you can make use of one quite well without training Advanced Drone Interfacing.

edit:

If one wants to make the point that you are a well rounded carrier pilot by having that skill, then add it starting at higher levels of mastery. Just don't give people who don't know better the idea that it is a commonly used skill for carrier pilots by requiring it for level 1. That is how Tactical Logistics Reconfiguration skill, which is required to use the Triage module - a module that is only usable on carriers - is handled. It is only mentioned starting at level 4 mastery.
Caldari 5
D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F. S.A.S
Affirmative.
#19 - 2013-12-25 07:07:33 UTC
Irregessa wrote:
[quote=Caldari 5]Yes, except that if you actually fly carriers and supers in fleets, you don't use them. You have much more important modules to use in your high slots, like remote reppers, remote cap transfers, neuts, smartbombs and drone link augmentors. Drone Control Units are pretty much only used by people who rat with their carriers. Just because that skill is used for a module that is only used on carriers is besides the point. Should the skill for using clone vat bays be required for level 1 mastery of the rorqual and the titans, as those are the only ships capable of using them? BlackOps primary purpose is the covert bridge, so it would make sense to require the skill for it. Carriers have a much broader utility, and you can make use of one quite well without training Advanced Drone Interfacing.

edit:

If one wants to make the point that you are a well rounded carrier pilot by having that skill, then add it starting at higher levels of mastery. Just don't give people who don't know better the idea that it is a commonly used skill for carrier pilots by requiring it for level 1. That is how Tactical Logistics Reconfiguration skill, which is required to use the Triage module - a module that is only usable on carriers - is handled. It is only mentioned starting at level 4 mastery.

I see that the difference in Carrier usage is where we seem to differ. On what should be in the Masteries, or at least where in the Masteries that things should show up. So we agree that skills for a module that can only be fit to a ship type should be in it's mastery somewhere, just not all at Mastery level 1. moving some of them to Mastery level 2 or 3 would be better suited?

For the clone vat usage for Roquals and Titans, yes it should be in the Mastery somewhere. Perhaps not at level 1 though.

Looks at his BlackOps that he used for running L4s at one stage and hasn't been used in ages. Meh, never had a need for it to Bridge yet, not to say that it never will, But I've had it for nearly 2 years and hasn't done it yet.