These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
12Next page
 

Increase fee for starting a corporation, and add info on downsides of doing so
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#1 - 2013-11-25 21:31:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Petrus Blackshell
tl;dr: Too many newbies get drawn into the trap of being strong, independent, free capsuleers who don't need an established corp. Make it harder to fall into that trap. or... Make creating a corp a lot less newbie-friendly.

A lot of new players jump into the game and are excited to get right into it. They hear about these great things called corporations, which they assume are like guilds in other games, and also see that there are obvious benefits to them, such as 0% tax, setting up a POS, and feeling important. All for just a cost of 1,599,800 ISK and training Corporation Management to 1!

Corps are not guilds though, and the newbies who fall into this trap end up suffering harsh consequences that are not apparent on the surface getting targeted by wardecs and more importantly, isolating themselves from helpful/educational community interaction. Corps are supposed to be social tools that aid and enable cooperation, and encourage acting as a cohesive unit that can stand up for itself. That is how corps are supposed to handle the challenges headed their way. Corps run by clueless newbies are unable to do that, and almost unfailingly end up stagnating, if not outright failing (and leading their members to quit Eve).

So, my proposal is as follows:

  1. Raise the corp formation fee to something prohibitive for newbies, but fairly nominal for people with at least 6 months or so of gameplay under their belt. Suggestion: 75-100 mil ISK
  2. Overhaul the user experience of corp formation to include basic info about the pros and cons of forming a corp, with emphasis on the prior game knowledge required to lead a successful corp.
  3. Include an encouragement to join a pre-existing corp, or to form a non-corp community with others via chat channels.
  4. (Possible) Overhaul the Corporation Management skill system to make founding a corp a deliberate and effort-ful task. Unsure how to do this without making it an awful hassle, so I leave it to your imagination.


Nerf newbies! Buff newbies by not allowing them to make extremely poor decisions!

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#2 - 2013-11-25 21:34:33 UTC
this idea is terrible in every way.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#3 - 2013-11-25 21:36:57 UTC
Batelle wrote:
this idea is terrible in every way.

Some constructive feedback would be great. What's terrible about not letting newbies lock themselves into the "helplessly getting harassed by griefers" corner?

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Karen Avioras
The Raging Raccoons
#4 - 2013-11-25 21:39:03 UTC
Let them learn by themselves.
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#5 - 2013-11-25 21:42:22 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Batelle wrote:
this idea is terrible in every way.

Some constructive feedback would be great. What's terrible about not letting newbies lock themselves into the "helplessly getting harassed by griefers" corner?


wardecs of 1-man corps is a lot rarer than you think it is. Furthermore, the low barrier of entry to creating a corp means more freedom for EVERYBODY, including making it less of a loss should such a wardec happen in the first place, or said character decide to close the corp and join another corp.

If people want to get away from rookie NPC corps and their tax, then let them. There are plenty of means to access help and information in the game that does not merit closing off the option of starting your own corporation.

I'm all for providing access to help and encouraging new players to join up with training corps, but thats no justification to saying "you can't do this." to any character.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#6 - 2013-11-25 21:43:53 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Buff newbies by not allowing them to make extremely poor decisions!


They'll only pull that TV down on their head once.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#7 - 2013-11-25 21:52:35 UTC
Karen Avioras wrote:
Let them learn by themselves.

By extension, should week-old newbies use specialized and vulnerable ships that require knowledge of mechanics (say, attack battlecruisers) to "learn for themselves"? A newbie will think twice about flying a 100 mil ISK ship even if he can, and he should think thrice about forming a corp, and becoming vulnerable and isolated -- which paying 100 mil ISK to form one would accomplish.

Batelle wrote:
wardecs of 1-man corps is a lot rarer than you think it is.

What of wardecs of 10-man or 20-man corps? Those who don't know what the difference between security status is, or don't know why a bling-fit Megathron is vulnerable to a T1-fit Rifter, or have "don't log in because we don't know what to do Sad" as a strategy?

I didn't post this out of the blue. For every person who posts a question in NC Q&A there are {insert statistic here} others who try blindly, fail, and leave Eve, without having had a chance.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#8 - 2013-11-25 21:56:52 UTC
Batelle wrote:
If people want to get away from rookie NPC corps and their tax, then let them. There are plenty of means to access help and information in the game that does not merit closing off the option of starting your own corporation.


I get that, and if someone is determined to isolate themselves for the sake of a couple ISK more, that's their business. However, I am not trying to address the 1-man corps, but the starry-eyed newbie corps that "will conquer the stars~~" which are doomed to failure from the start because it's too easy to miss the real large costs of trying to start your own thing in Eve.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Weasel Leblanc
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2013-11-25 23:18:31 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
So, my proposal is as follows:

  1. Raise the corp formation fee to something prohibitive for newbies, but fairly nominal for people with at least 6 months or so of gameplay under their belt. Suggestion: 75-100 mil ISK
  2. Overhaul the user experience of corp formation to include basic info about the pros and cons of forming a corp, with emphasis on the prior game knowledge required to lead a successful corp.
  3. Include an encouragement to join a pre-existing corp, or to form a non-corp community with others via chat channels.
  4. (Possible) Overhaul the Corporation Management skill system to make founding a corp a deliberate and effort-ful task. Unsure how to do this without making it an awful hassle, so I leave it to your imagination.


Nerf newbies! Buff newbies by not allowing them to make extremely poor decisions!

That second option, that I bolded? That is the best option of the lot by far, and it is also a great way to up player retention. It's one thing to let players be deceitful to each other - deceitful players are A-OK, and a critical part of the experience of New Eden - but when the new player information is as glowing as it is about player corporations and makes no mention whatsoever of the downsides, the game is being deceitful to players.

If the game provides proper information, then people who like access to information will not be driven away by the perception that "this game is giving me bad information", and more to the point, I will finally be able to declare HTFU with a clean conscience when someone complains about being targeted by a griefer wardec.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#10 - 2013-11-25 23:22:48 UTC
Just the second option would probably satisfy my bittervet newbie-nerfing nerd-rage. It still won't turn away all newbies blindly rushing into corps, but at least those who do (then fail/complain) can be chided for not reading the info they were given, and Eve's harshness is fulfilled.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#11 - 2013-11-25 23:28:49 UTC
There is an old expression.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

It refers to being able to make something available, which is going to be needed, but you cannot do everything for them.
There are some things people need to do for themselves, and a game like EVE needs to rely on tutorials as much as player driven instruction.

If someone doesn't take the time to learn things, then they can make mistakes because of it.

The most you can do, is hang out in newby areas, and offer help.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#12 - 2013-11-25 23:35:59 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
There is an old expression.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

It refers to being able to make something available, which is going to be needed, but you cannot do everything for them.
There are some things people need to do for themselves, and a game like EVE needs to rely on tutorials as much as player driven instruction.

If someone doesn't take the time to learn things, then they can make mistakes because of it.

The most you can do, is hang out in newby areas, and offer help.

I see this as more as putting a fence around the Pit Of Doom Ultimate Horse Jump so only horses that can actually jump can jump the fence to try to jump the pit, instead of any silly foal falling in. Running off with metahorse is fun.

Less obtusely stated: it's not to make it easy to do the right thing, but to make it hard to do the wrong thing.

Also I lead a newbie-friendly corp, I know what's up with what newbies need (or at least, those who want to get into PvP). Supposedly. Blink

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#13 - 2013-11-25 23:39:30 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
There is an old expression.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

It refers to being able to make something available, which is going to be needed, but you cannot do everything for them.
There are some things people need to do for themselves, and a game like EVE needs to rely on tutorials as much as player driven instruction.

If someone doesn't take the time to learn things, then they can make mistakes because of it.

The most you can do, is hang out in newby areas, and offer help.

I see this as more as putting a fence around the Pit Of Doom Ultimate Horse Jump so only horses that can actually jump can jump the fence to try to jump the pit, instead of any silly foal falling in. Running off with metahorse is fun.

Less obtusely stated: it's not to make it easy to do the right thing, but to make it hard to do the wrong thing.

Also I lead a newbie-friendly corp, I know what's up with what newbies need (or at least, those who want to get into PvP). Supposedly. Blink

I would suggest advocating for a warning label, on corp creation, in that case.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#14 - 2013-11-26 02:14:22 UTC
I made a similar proposal a couple months ago (for entirely different reasons).

Supporting.

How did you Veterans start?
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#15 - 2013-11-26 02:15:59 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
I made a similar proposal a couple months ago (for entirely different reasons).

Supporting.

Great minds think alike? Big smile

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#16 - 2013-11-26 04:12:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
When you're in a rookie corp, other members can generally be relied upon to comment extensively on the "evils" of joining player corps. How they will tax you and order you around and so on. The threat of wardecs is also mentioned extensively. This often leads to a new player more-or-less rejecting the idea of joining an established corp, instead making their own because "I don't want to be told what to do" or "I don't want to be taxed by some lazy person" and other silly things. Newbies still believe that democracy has any place in EVE outside of the Gallente Federation's backstory and have this notion that a corp based around "everyone does their own thing" is either interesting or successful.

Personally, I blame other games and this notion that real-world principles have any merit in New Eden for newbies doing the silly things they do.

As for me? I left Center for Advanced Studies because I wanted a POS and a small shipbuilding operation. I had no idea how awful POSes are, but I don't regret my decision. I don't always play particularly well with others so being the only one in my corp suits me just fine.

I wouldn't recommend it to anyone else though.

With regards to OP, I don't feel making a corp should be a trivial thing. It shouldn't be an insurmountable 100m+ ISK goal though. That newbie who has no idea what they're diving into today by making their own corp could turn out to be tomorrow's new Mittani or Boodabooda or Elo Knight and the leader of a coalition that can rival even the CFC - unless they can't make that corp because of "protecting newbies from themselves".
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#17 - 2013-11-26 05:15:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Nevyn Auscent
I always wondered why Corp Management isn't tiered behind some other things like.... say.... Wing Commander IV or something. Still a fairly fast train, but gives the obvious idea that you should have a capable fleet already.

Also, wtf... 100 mil insurmountable goal? If 100 Mil is a huge amount, then you aren't ready for a corp.
Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#18 - 2013-11-26 05:39:03 UTC
Truly a terrible idea. If new players want to create their own corp they should be able to. So what if there are potential pitfalls? That's just what makes Eve interesting. It doesn't hold your hand like other mmos.
Solops Crendraven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2013-11-26 06:08:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Solops Crendraven
If it ain't broke, don't fix it
Just my humble Opinion

(Warning Label Disclaimer) CCP WARNING To New Players: DANGER starting your own Corp may cause death or serious injury and you may lose your POS dont say you have not been warned.

Moving To Las Vegas Watch Me Play Poker! enter link description here
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#20 - 2013-11-26 06:12:48 UTC
I think it's probably a good idea to include a warning somewhere in the set up process, but something tells me any noob that's impatient enough to jump straight into starting a corp won't have the common sense to read that or take anything it says seriously. I don't agree with putting physical barriers like high isk and training costs in place
12Next page