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Remember Malkalen!
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Vikarion
Doomheim
#21 - 2013-11-23 23:34:11 UTC
Aebe Amraen wrote:
Stitcher wrote:
I'm not defending Jacus Roden, I'm defending the State from cracked cases like you by trying to show that we're not all of us completely dense.


I'm not at all sure the State needs or wants defense from someone whose combat record consists entirely of attacking Caldari State officials.

Your words carry little weight, my traitorous friend.


I dislike many of Mr. Hakatain's affiliations and choices, but he has fought in the Protectorate, and so far as I am aware, never directly opposed the State. Just because we disagree with someone, does not make them a traitor to the State.

Remember: I against my brother. My brother and I against our family. Our family against the corporation. Our corporation against all corporations. All of the State against all others.

I sympathize with the view that Roden is an ultranationalist nutjob, and my personal opinion is that the Gallente were either directly responsibly or incredibly criminally negligent in regards to Malkalen, but it must be remembered that we Caldari, have a responsibility to seek proof over emotional reaction. We do not burn people alive in front of crowds, and when we do have bad leaders, we depose them.

What can be said, with ease, is that Roden has been tenuously linked by news reports to Gallente Ultranationalist and racial purity movements in the past, and has a great financial interest in the continuation of the current conflict.

Natalcya Katla
Astropolitan Front
#22 - 2013-11-24 00:14:14 UTC
Aebe Amraen wrote:
Remember Malkalen!


I remember Malkalen. I remember the twisted metal, the smoke, the wounded as they were dragged out of the wreckage to be evacuated onboard the hastily assembled fleet piloted by capsuleers from every corner of New Eden. I remember Stitcher and others like him, equal parts stupid and brave as they left their capsules to personally lead search parties into the ruined station. I remember the horror we all felt as we realized the sheer magnitude of the disaster. I remember the sharp spikes of hope and elation each time a new pocket of survivors, or even just a single one, was found. Most of all, I remember the unity. That single day of unified purpose.

But I don't remember you. Where were you on that day, Captain?
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#23 - 2013-11-24 01:01:31 UTC
Natalcya Katla wrote:
Aebe Amraen wrote:
Remember Malkalen!


I remember Malkalen. I remember the twisted metal, the smoke, the wounded as they were dragged out of the wreckage to be evacuated onboard the hastily assembled fleet piloted by capsuleers from every corner of New Eden. I remember Stitcher and others like him, equal parts stupid and brave as they left their capsules to personally lead search parties into the ruined station. I remember the horror we all felt as we realized the sheer magnitude of the disaster. I remember the sharp spikes of hope and elation each time a new pocket of survivors, or even just a single one, was found. Most of all, I remember the unity. That single day of unified purpose.


I remember a baby, a boy. Three, four weeks old. His parents had managed to stuff him in a safety case and power up the seals - literally the last thing they ever did. Their apartment had breached, vented - they died in each others' arms. They must have literally only just finished sealing the kid in when the Wandering Saint hit - frankly, given how little warning there was, they acted with commendable speed to even be able to save him.

That kid's five years old now. Being raised in a corporate creche in Korama. He's a normal, happy, healthy boy: He doesn't grieve for the parents he never knew. Has a Sela Sentinels lunchbox.

I did a lot that day. Technically broke the law by practicing surgery without a license, but I doubt any of my patients complained.

I'm as angry as anybody else over Malkalen. But my determination is that it should never happen again. And the way we're going to do that is by understanding that whatever happened, it probably WASN'T the Federation's fault - they didn't stand to gain anything from it. All that can be achieved by continuing to antagonise them is to perpetuate the same festering anger that killed that boy's parents in the first place.

I don't buy that Noir just "snapped" but I've gone over the arguments why I don't accept that explanation a great many times, and I offer no alternative explanation. I don't know if I will ever be privy to the secrets of that day - but wild speculation ahead of the facts can only serve to do harm by increasing the risk that it might, someday, happen again.

I would go a very, very long way to never again have to carry a wailing infant's lifebox away from his mother's body.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders
Aebe Amraen
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#24 - 2013-11-24 03:47:07 UTC
I apologize to Verin for my accusations. When I first called up his combat record my data connection must have failed; I only received listings going back 8 months, giving a very incomplete picture of his history.

Andreus Ixiris wrote:
That was, until TEST got ran out of nullsec on a rail and decided that no, they actually did need the protection of the Caldari State


Need the protection of the Caldari state? Hardly. We identified a mutually beneficial opportunity where we help the State fight their war and in exchange they make us enormously wealthy. We made it clear when we signed up to fight that, as a group, we are in it only for the money. Most of us would as happily fight for any other group, empire or otherwise, which would pay us as well--it happens to be the case that the empires are currently the ones offering absurd levels of pay for very little effort, and the State was the one most willing to do business with us.

There are exceptions, of course--me being one. The decay of the individual freedoms which the Federation points to as signs of their superiority began under Foiritan and has only accelerated under Roden. The manner in which Roden and his military allies from government and industry forced out Foiritan was more of a military coup--albeit popularly accepted--than orderly democracy. The Federation has fallen far from its ideals, and I can no longer support it. In fact, I feel that the Federation in its current state poses a real threat to the stability of the cluster--Roden and his cronies will make war with anyone convenient as long as they can continue to transfer wealth from taxpayers to themselves.
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2013-11-24 03:52:32 UTC
What you meant to say is "this is the best job we could find after GoonWaffe stole all our space that didn't involve literal prostitution."

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Aebe Amraen
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#26 - 2013-11-24 04:09:40 UTC
Way better job than killing rats in nullsec, actually. Less effort and 3x better pay.
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#27 - 2013-11-24 18:44:08 UTC
Aebe Amraen wrote:
Those loyal to the Gallente Empire ...


Whoa ... Gallente Empire? Empire?

Shocked

I go on vacation for a couple of months and seem what I miss? When did this happen?

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0
Vikarion
Doomheim
#28 - 2013-11-24 20:13:06 UTC
Katran Luftschreck wrote:
Aebe Amraen wrote:
Those loyal to the Gallente Empire ...


Whoa ... Gallente Empire? Empire?

Shocked

I go on vacation for a couple of months and seem what I miss? When did this happen?

Colloquial use. The four major nation-states are often known as "the empires", just as the criminal factions are often known as pirates, even though one is a dystopian failed state, one is a drug cartel, one is an organized crime syndicate, another is a strange religious cult, and yet another truly are just pirates.
Dangirdas Bachir
The Exiled Titans
#29 - 2013-11-25 07:28:57 UTC
Oh please, just because of one incident you're now going to judge all Gallente Federation?

EVE EVE STARGALACTIC CITY B I T C H
Nicole Graves
Anshar Incorporated
#30 - 2013-11-25 11:14:27 UTC
Dangirdas Bachir wrote:
Oh please, just because of one incident you're now going to judge all Gallente Federation?



What, you want the whole list? There are character limits to these posts you know!
Dangirdas Bachir
The Exiled Titans
#31 - 2013-11-25 12:39:05 UTC
Nicole Graves wrote:
Dangirdas Bachir wrote:
Oh please, just because of one incident you're now going to judge all Gallente Federation?



What, you want the whole list? There are character limits to these posts you know!

Please give me the list within the character limit. Just please I want to see it.

EVE EVE STARGALACTIC CITY B I T C H
Naomi Tichim
Sovereign Hospitaller Order of Saint Katherine
#32 - 2013-11-25 13:59:32 UTC
I didn't actually hear about Malkalen until quite some time after the fact, but I personally find the idea that Noir was acting on behalf of the Gallente government absurd. Most likely, Noir was an agent for some other power. Tibus Heth is the first one that comes to mind (aside from sending tensions through the roof, it also took Garuishi out of the way), but there are any number of factions which would benefit from seeing the Caldari and Gallente at war.

It's also possible that Noir was acting alone. If so, he may have just been crazy. But one rather plausible idea I heard is that Noir had a secret clone hidden away somewhere. Far from being a tool, he may have been the mastermind.

Eh. The fact is that this war has cost far too many lives.

Improving Archaeology
James Syagrius
Luminaire Sovereign Solutions
#33 - 2013-11-26 00:07:24 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
Natalcya Katla wrote:
Aebe Amraen wrote:
Remember Malkalen!


I remember Malkalen. I remember the twisted metal, the smoke, the wounded as they were dragged out of the wreckage to be evacuated onboard the hastily assembled fleet piloted by capsuleers from every corner of New Eden. I remember Stitcher and others like him, equal parts stupid and brave as they left their capsules to personally lead search parties into the ruined station. I remember the horror we all felt as we realized the sheer magnitude of the disaster. I remember the sharp spikes of hope and elation each time a new pocket of survivors, or even just a single one, was found. Most of all, I remember the unity. That single day of unified purpose.


I remember a baby, a boy. Three, four weeks old. His parents had managed to stuff him in a safety case and power up the seals - literally the last thing they ever did. Their apartment had breached, vented - they died in each others' arms. They must have literally only just finished sealing the kid in when the Wandering Saint hit - frankly, given how little warning there was, they acted with commendable speed to even be able to save him.

That kid's five years old now. Being raised in a corporate creche in Korama. He's a normal, happy, healthy boy: He doesn't grieve for the parents he never knew. Has a Sela Sentinels lunchbox.

I did a lot that day. Technically broke the law by practicing surgery without a license, but I doubt any of my patients complained.

I'm as angry as anybody else over Malkalen. But my determination is that it should never happen again. And the way we're going to do that is by understanding that whatever happened, it probably WASN'T the Federation's fault - they didn't stand to gain anything from it. All that can be achieved by continuing to antagonise them is to perpetuate the same festering anger that killed that boy's parents in the first place.

I don't buy that Noir just "snapped" but I've gone over the arguments why I don't accept that explanation a great many times, and I offer no alternative explanation. I don't know if I will ever be privy to the secrets of that day - but wild speculation ahead of the facts can only serve to do harm by increasing the risk that it might, someday, happen again.

I would go a very, very long way to never again have to carry a wailing infant's lifebox away from his mother's body.

Sometimes we forget the price paid by those most helpless.

Thank you for reminding us that great tragedy's are experienced individually.

“Here also are the heralds of his praise."
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#34 - 2013-11-26 00:21:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Fredfredbug4
Aebe Amraen wrote:
Stitcher wrote:
Ironic. If it's not a conspiracy theory about impersonation and inside jobs, it's a conspiracy theory about Jacus Roden profiting from the destruction.

Guess no matter what you do, there's always going to be a conspiracy.


I don't think there can be any doubt that Jacus Roden profits from the increased demand for Roden Shipyards warships.


And there's no doubt that the megacorps such as Ishukone and Kaalakoita profit from the increase demand for their warships.

Quite frankly, we have enough of you blind and biased fanatics on the IGS as it is. Not only from the State but from all factions. With this attitude, don't expect to be taken seriously, even by your own countrymen. Although considering that you are a former Gallentean, you are now the laughing stock of both your old nation, and your new one. That takes skill.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2013-11-26 00:31:44 UTC
On the topic of Roden, he's the only President within my lifetime that made me doubt the Federation. That made me doubt our ideals. That made me doubt our goals for the future.

Is he as bad as Heth? No, but I fear that if put in a similar position, he would be even worse. The only thing holding Roden back is the Senate and the Supreme Court. If he can get their support or work around them, then we're going to have a major mess on our hands.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!
Constantin Baracca
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#36 - 2013-11-26 03:55:57 UTC
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
On the topic of Roden, he's the only President within my lifetime that made me doubt the Federation. That made me doubt our ideals. That made me doubt our goals for the future.

Is he as bad as Heth? No, but I fear that if put in a similar position, he would be even worse. The only thing holding Roden back is the Senate and the Supreme Court. If he can get their support or work around them, then we're going to have a major mess on our hands.



I suppose it's true what they say about political power and the barrels of guns. What our four empires seem to have in common is that we seem to grant political power to the best armed of our options.

"What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?"

-Matthew 16:26
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2013-11-26 04:08:43 UTC
Constantin Baracca wrote:
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
On the topic of Roden, he's the only President within my lifetime that made me doubt the Federation. That made me doubt our ideals. That made me doubt our goals for the future.

Is he as bad as Heth? No, but I fear that if put in a similar position, he would be even worse. The only thing holding Roden back is the Senate and the Supreme Court. If he can get their support or work around them, then we're going to have a major mess on our hands.



I suppose it's true what they say about political power and the barrels of guns. What our four empires seem to have in common is that we seem to grant political power to the best armed of our options.


To be as fair to Roden as possible, he was elected during a time of war. We needed a military leader and we elected one. The problem is that instead of voting for someone who would win us the war, we got someone who would draw it out as long as he could.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!
Constantin Baracca
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#38 - 2013-11-26 04:23:24 UTC
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
Constantin Baracca wrote:
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
On the topic of Roden, he's the only President within my lifetime that made me doubt the Federation. That made me doubt our ideals. That made me doubt our goals for the future.

Is he as bad as Heth? No, but I fear that if put in a similar position, he would be even worse. The only thing holding Roden back is the Senate and the Supreme Court. If he can get their support or work around them, then we're going to have a major mess on our hands.



I suppose it's true what they say about political power and the barrels of guns. What our four empires seem to have in common is that we seem to grant political power to the best armed of our options.


To be as fair to Roden as possible, he was elected during a time of war. We needed a military leader and we elected one. The problem is that instead of voting for someone who would win us the war, we got someone who would draw it out as long as he could.


It is a bit of a self-fulfilling cycle. Military leaders, especially in democracies, don't have much incentive to win wars as much as fight them forever. After all, he was elected because a war was going on, not necessarily because he thought he could successfully negotiate between freighter unions and local governments over issues of warp-wake.

At the very least, if your people realize it, they do have the ability to get rid of him and elect in a new direction sooner rather than later. I suppose the question is if he can make your people more afraid of the cluster outside than disappointed with the amount of resources he dedicates to that pursuit. I think we might all seriously reconsider warfare among ourselves if we tally up the costs associated with fighting it.

It's hard to elect the sort of people who can wind down a war, though, especially since you need a pair of them on opposite sides to do it.

"What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?"

-Matthew 16:26
Rinai Vero
Blades of Liberty
#39 - 2013-11-26 06:09:11 UTC
What's all this reference to Roden as a "Military Leader?" Militant, perhaps... but Arms Manufacturing Tycoon has never been a rank in any branch of the Federated Union Armed Forces that I'm familiar with. Did I skip a few chapters of his biography or something?

Roden's agenda for coming to power was predicated upon protecting the rights of the Gallente Corporate class more than anything. Not something I particularly disagree with, nor would most Caldari disagree either were their own leaders to take similar action. Sure, Roden has vigorously prosecuted the War, but did we have any choice? Do we now? The Gallente have offered peace repeatedly. Even now the State Protectorate and its Capsuleer militiamen prosecute another major offensive. When will we hear their leaders offer peace?
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#40 - 2013-11-26 06:36:14 UTC
I must have missed those constant offers of peace, Rinai. In fact the last offer of peace was proffered by Ishukone, as I remember, although sadly it didn't include the end of the CEWPA agreement.

I do remember your boss repudiating my attempt to broker a more civilised conduct to the war, though.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
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