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Are Capsuleers definitively "Immortal" outside of their ships?

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Author
Kourdus
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#101 - 2013-10-12 05:10:05 UTC
had to take a month off to facilitate moving to a new city.

surprised that this thread is still going. :)

anyhow, my Capsuleer's just gonna hire some badasses to make sure I make it back to my Pod alive. *shrug*
Egil Musana
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#102 - 2013-11-19 19:22:04 UTC
Valerie Valate wrote:
The simple solution, should game mechanics evolve to the point where capsuleers getting out the pod to do stuff becomes a Thing, would be something along lines of:

Genolution 'Lazarus' implant - Latest implant from Genolution, the 'Lazarus' features an advanced recording suite, that allows memories of a persons actions to be integrated into a backup clone, should the user of the 'Lazarus' be killed outside of the capsule or cloning facility. This can be a disorientating experience, and associates of a Lazarus user are politely suggested not to tell the user how they died.

One of the Jovians in the Theodicy short story was killed outside of the capsule, but returned later on, and said something like "stop! do not tell me how I died!".

So, it could be done, maybe.



That's hilariously awesome...

I had a very roundabout idea simply of putting a DUST implant in a clone and jumping or regular podding into it. During the time in that DUST body, you effectively lose the capsuleer title and can't fly a ship worth **** besides physically manning it like a regular person with a crew and everything. Plus, you need the distance limitation and, depending on how an MCC or its internal suite and the DUST implant communicate, it could be rather easy to stop that connection, be it underneath thick heavy metals, or sending a resonating wave back to cancel out the implant to MCC communications.

To get back to being a capsuleer, mr. former podder must kill himself within the vicinity of the MCC and be reuploaded to a pod-capable clone.

The problems seem to be that, from how some perceive CCP's Dust implant/Pod incompatibility, it might be more of the capsuleer mind physically just cannot fit inside a DUST implant body due to sheer size limitations of neural data or whatnot. The basic idea of this rather two bit craptastic idea is more of, yes you can leave your pod and have your "immortality" but you'll be treading a still dangerous line to anyone with a brain to just break the connection and shoot you to permakill you. You still would prefer just sitting the captain's quarters with 2k ISK guards outside, staying preferably fine in the pod-ready body instead of risking such a danger.
Gaven Lok'ri
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#103 - 2013-11-19 21:03:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Gaven Lok'ri
As a note:

My understanding of the soft clone argument does not involve a slower less invasive scan as was suggested early in the thread. It involves the same deadly scan that the capsuleer undergoes.

The argument is more that the fact that the brain can obviously be converted to data means that the data from a scan can be stored.

So what this would mean is that every time you get podded (or have a clone killed in lab to make a backup) you would be creating a new set of brain data that could be stored.

So, if you get killed out of pod then the memory of the time between when you "died" last and when someone killed the character out of pod would be what was lost.

On immortality, I think the more interesting question is whether the capsuleer's mind is as immortal as their ability to survive dying. We have as a bit of a joke the idea that he people who don't RP are afflicted by a disease that makes them think they aren't real. Capsuleer dementia is more a joke than anything else, but the underlying idea that mental disease and decay would be preserved from one clone to the next seems like it is something to consider.

It seems like that, rather than physical violence, is what would threaten a capsuleer's immortality.

Admiral of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris

Divine Commodore 24th Imperial Crusade

Holder. Vassal of the Emperor Family

Da'iel Zehn
Evil Frosty's Premium Liqours and Fine Wines
#104 - 2013-11-20 17:29:45 UTC
Gaven Lok'ri wrote:


...The argument is... the fact that the brain can obviously be converted to data means that the data from a scan can be stored...


I think this is the key to the entire subject.




Egil Musana
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#105 - 2013-11-20 18:05:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Egil Musana
Da'iel Zehn wrote:
Gaven Lok'ri wrote:


...The argument is... the fact that the brain can obviously be converted to data means that the data from a scan can be stored...


I think this is the key to the entire subject.



Indeed... And we're mostly wondering if a clone body with a DUST implant can still hold the capsuleer mind data...
Can it?
Da'iel Zehn
Evil Frosty's Premium Liqours and Fine Wines
#106 - 2013-11-21 17:36:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Da'iel Zehn
Egil Musana wrote:

Indeed... And we're mostly wondering if a clone body with a DUST implant can still hold the capsuleer mind data...
Can it?


That is an excellent question.

So while a single body can't handle both cloning technologies, could the brain data be stored and transferred back and forth between clones with one having cap tech and the other merc tech.

I would say yes because the clone is you and has your brain, and I would think it could be similar to jump cloning.

I'm reading "Templar One" and Empress Sarum says that the technologys are very similar. The sleepers might have been an offshoot of the Jove.

I say similar to jump cloning, but I could be completely wrong. Is there lore somewhere that explains jump clone tech?
Kytayn
Kronos TEchnologies
#107 - 2013-11-23 02:05:01 UTC
This has me concerned. I wrote a story for the Pod & Planet fiction contest where the capsuleer is killed outside of his pod. While I didn't directly say the character would come back (it's open to interpretation), the implication is there.

I actually did search through the fiction portal on the subject. From what lore I have read, I expected that so long as there was some clone, somewhere, the capsuleer could come back, just sans the latest "state" Altered Carbon-style.

Is this definitively not so?

Be careful in Pulsar systems, you might get Pod Flu.

(Bio for YouTube reading)

Izzy Ankhavees
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#108 - 2013-11-24 04:40:10 UTC
Problem is: almost all people think in the lines of using the clone as it is only in the ships and you HAVE to use your main clone to walk on stations.

If you have a clone like a jump clone with which you use to walk on stations, not as a vessel for your scan, but rather a clone your main clone controls by neural interfaces, you still have the same power to be blown to pieces and just wake up your main clone. Either a flesh and blood clone remote controled, or something on the lines of Surrogates movie, which is a robot human like you control with your mind. Either way, it is not out of technology reach as you are stated to have brain/machine interfacing technology already in place, and humanoid robots which could simply be covered on balistic gel to resemble you.

But on top of all, if the need to explain why you cant be permanently killed while walking around, there are hundreds of ways the lore dont need to be changed in order to explain how that can happen. It is just a matter of EVE Fiction writters to choose their most loved one.

One note on that, yes, I know, they have not been so wise in the past regarding not changing lore to fit game mechanics, but lately that has been better done.

[i]"Perfect crimes do not exist, for to be a crime, it must be proven." "Make the body count unacceptable to ensure your own safety." "Basic rule of covert ops: let someone else do your dirty work.[/i]"

Dangirdas Bachir
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#109 - 2013-11-25 09:23:01 UTC
I'm just sitting here waiting for local hubs where people can meet and assassinate each other. PERMA DEATH FTW!

EVE EVE STARGALACTIC CITY B I T C H

Stitcher
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#110 - 2013-11-26 15:45:52 UTC
the cloning process involves making a detailed scan of somebody's brain and transmitting that to be uploaded into a new body.

If data can be transmitted, it can be stored. If it can be stored, then it can be used as a contingency in the event of the primary upload failing (this is my head-canon for the SP loss if you get podded with an inadequate clone).

If I were to design a mechanic for getting killed out of pod it would run as follows:

1: Backups. Every time you are podded or make a clone jump, you store "backup" information. You may also create a backup by spending some small amount of ISK. Your backup is your exact skill profile at that moment - number of skills, level of each skill, number of SP in each skill. You only have (and need) one backup at a time.

2: If you are killed out of pod, you restore from backup. This means that your character resets to the exact number of SP and number of skills they had at the point when the backup was made. if you're cautious, there's no reason you shouldn't lose more than a few thousand SP. If it's been forever since your last podding, clone jump or manual backup, though, you could stand to lose millions of SP.

3: If you can somehow recover your corpse and extract the cybernetic memory module from it, you can get back the lost SP.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Kytayn
Kronos TEchnologies
#111 - 2013-11-27 00:30:06 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
the cloning process involves making a detailed scan of somebody's brain and transmitting that to be uploaded into a new body.

If data can be transmitted, it can be stored. If it can be stored, then it can be used as a contingency in the event of the primary upload failing (this is my head-canon for the SP loss if you get podded with an inadequate clone).

If I were to design a mechanic for getting killed out of pod it would run as follows:

1: Backups. Every time you are podded or make a clone jump, you store "backup" information. You may also create a backup by spending some small amount of ISK. Your backup is your exact skill profile at that moment - number of skills, level of each skill, number of SP in each skill. You only have (and need) one backup at a time.

2: If you are killed out of pod, you restore from backup. This means that your character resets to the exact number of SP and number of skills they had at the point when the backup was made. if you're cautious, there's no reason you shouldn't lose more than a few thousand SP. If it's been forever since your last podding, clone jump or manual backup, though, you could stand to lose millions of SP.

3: If you can somehow recover your corpse and extract the cybernetic memory module from it, you can get back the lost SP.

That was my working assumption and I couldn't find lore that directly contradicted it. It's possible for a capsuleer to be dead dead, but special circumstances seem to obtain.

Be careful in Pulsar systems, you might get Pod Flu.

(Bio for YouTube reading)

Heyer Vitally
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#112 - 2013-11-27 03:57:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Heyer Vitally
Dobie Mercault wrote:
One distinction that might be drawn in types of cloning is how well memories are kept. In the capsule rebirth, you remember everything up to the moment of death. A non-capsule rebirth might only restore the memories that were "backed up" during the last brain scan, or whatever. Or there may be ways to "transfer" memories even while out of pod, as is suggested in at least one chronicle.


6th day type stuff.

But thats not how it works in Eve, they mentioned it previously, that you actually die from the "Snapshot" of the brain.

Once your pod is breached, the device activates and downloads your brain, this process ends up scrambling your brain, but that alright cause "Every capsuleer knows that capsule breach = death" or something like that.

I wonder if they keep old versions of you saved somewhere from previous deaths,

If they do wonder whats stopping two or more versions of yourself walking around
Xindi Kraid
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#113 - 2013-12-01 21:05:23 UTC
I am in agreement with Stitcher on this. It would be stupid NOT to be able to and have backup copies of the data transmitted from your pod to your designated CRU.

Does CCP have any stance on the "slow clone" idea some RPers toy with some times: that is the idea that it's possible to take similar brain scans in a less invasive and destructive manner that also, necessarily, takes a longer time, and then if anything happens, use that stored backup to create a new clone if there was a cloning error on podding or someone dies outside the pod.

Matar Ronin
#114 - 2013-12-04 18:01:53 UTC
Until all this is sorted out I'll continue to rely on my loyal obscenely well paid personal security staff of Dust514 Mercs to shuttle me about stations in the rare times I need to do a physical face to face meeting with anyone other than a family member. As it currently stands my family lives on station so I rarely have the need to actually go down to a planet surface. My personal security staff has state of the art scanning tools so my family and I are as safe as possible when in station.

To keep up to date on what is going on on the surface of worlds I rely upon reports from loyal Dust514 Mercs, baseline employees, and family members. You gain quite a bit when you become a capsuleer but you do have to give up quite a few things as well. So random strolls in public are out of the question. Having taken part in missions that have resulted in the deaths of numerous baseliner crew members I am not eager to offer myself up as an easy target while clothes shopping.

Revenge is a real thing, not to mention bounty hunters.

‘Vain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.’

" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.

Petar Harad
Justified and Ancient
#115 - 2013-12-05 02:00:09 UTC
Valerie Valate wrote:
The simple solution, should game mechanics evolve to the point where capsuleers getting out the pod to do stuff becomes a Thing, would be something along lines of:

Genolution 'Lazarus' implant - Latest implant from Genolution, the 'Lazarus' features an advanced recording suite, that allows memories of a persons actions to be integrated into a backup clone, should the user of the 'Lazarus' be killed outside of the capsule or cloning facility. This can be a disorientating experience, and associates of a Lazarus user are politely suggested not to tell the user how they died.

One of the Jovians in the Theodicy short story was killed outside of the capsule, but returned later on, and said something like "stop! do not tell me how I died!".

So, it could be done, maybe.
That is actually a good idea. I would suggest another name though, as in my mother tongue 'Lazarus' means being absolutely stupefied drunk.....
Now that would be a nice catch: Plug in Genolution 'Lazarus' implant, have a 40% chance of being wasted as a side effect....Twisted

...without the signatures, the world has descended into chaos. No one knows how long we have left...CCP Falcon

Orland Yormes
Hueromont Interstellar Exploration Inc.
#116 - 2013-12-14 08:54:44 UTC
I defently see a possibility that in the future that clones with dust implants linked to neuralsockets on the back that capsuleers possess and can in turn be linked to the stargate network trough it to connect to a clone instead of a mobile revival unit. It would render capsuleers imortal outside the pod as well. The capsuleers would however remember their own deaths like dust soldiers do.
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#117 - 2013-12-25 23:35:09 UTC
Death outside the pod should be devastating, if you were forced to awaken in a new clone based on the snapshot of your last clone death you may conceivably lose millions of sp, to safeguard against this I would support the remote mindlink/telepresence station only clone as being the easiest and most logical way of allowing clone death without loss of memory of events and sp to the capsuleer who may be in their cq controlling the station based proxy body at the time.

capsuleers are very fearful of perma death and would seek a technological solution to prevent them from being vulnerable to it.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...

Rauour Engil
Rabies Inc.
#118 - 2013-12-26 16:02:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Rauour Engil
You could probably remote a clone with a slave set from your pod. No one would realize that your slaved clone wasn't you... just saying. btw.. update your clone before you get out of your pod, record everything that happens when in the station and if you get killed you only have a couple of hours to catch-up on before planning revenge :)
PinkPanter
Origin.
#119 - 2014-01-05 18:15:06 UTC
What about the broker?
That dude had multiple clones running at the same time and was killing his current clone whenever he reached desired action/target?
Orland Yormes
Hueromont Interstellar Exploration Inc.
#120 - 2014-01-10 08:23:35 UTC
We have been discussing it, check by the earlier posts.