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Do you feel ECM is a good game mechanic?

Author
Il Feytid
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1 - 2011-11-20 15:51:17 UTC
I don't want this to turn into a giant debate. I just want to see to know how everyone feels about this game mechanic. Do not go one about what part of the current mechanic needs to be changed or anything like that. The question is simple:

Do you think the current ECM mechanic is good and if not; would you like to see it replaced with something completely new?
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2011-11-20 15:52:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Gilbaron
i dont consider it perfect (especially on the visual and ui side)

but much more important, its everything but broken and a really good game mechanic
Tear Miner
Doomheim
#3 - 2011-11-20 15:55:11 UTC
Yes.

Next, we need to move along. I've got a busy day today, so I can only approve today's threads so fast.
Morganta
The Greater Goon
Clockwork Pineapple
#4 - 2011-11-20 16:16:03 UTC
yes, ECM is a good game mechanic

it could stand a little work, a little more evenness of effect
The Original Alt
Doomheim
#5 - 2011-11-20 16:16:42 UTC
No and yes.
Caulk H0lster
Kazakh Ministry of Wealth Redistribution
#6 - 2011-11-20 16:34:30 UTC
Tactic, yes.

Game mechanic, no.

From what I understand about ECM jamming, it works on a chance basis, determining the chance a target is going to be jammed by looking at the jamming strength of the jamming ship, compared to the sensor strength of the target ship. This SHOULD mean that a ship with a very high sensor strength should be immune from jamming from something with a very low jam strength like an ECM drone, but this is usually not the case, since 5 light ECM drones can jam just about anything OCCASIONALLY.

Maybe the best solution would be to toss out the sensor strength value, (and probably the jam strength value) and find a new mechanic to make jamming work. Sensor strength has been causing issues anyway because of people making un-probable (or now, PRETTY MUCH un-probable) ships. ECM jam strength seems like it would just have to go along with sensor strength.

To replace the old system, I suggest two things. The first would be to make the following effects the end result of dedicated jamming ships (falcon, rook, blackbird, scorp, widow), while reducing the functionality of non-jamming ships fitting ECM and ECM drones to 1/5th or 1/10th of the percentage chances below. Second, start all tech 1 ships with a baseline chance to be jammed that is the same regardless of the ship size (maybe 40-50% chance). Then instead of making jamming tied to sensor strength, T2 ships would get a bonus relating to "ECM resistance" that would make tech 2 ships harder to jam than their T1 counterparts (maybe 20-25% chance). Finally for the top tier, you'd have things like recons and logistics which have naturally high sensor strength now, who would just get a "plus 2" ECM resistance bonus, making them ever harder still to jam (10-15% chance). Lastly, ships like marauders which now have sensor strength as their main weakness in PvP, would simply retain the tech 1 level of ECM resistance (or lack thereof). This has the added benefit of being simple to add as a bonus for certain T3 subsystems as well, without making them un-probable. Capitals would also work under this scheme with "plus 2" or even a "plus 3" ECM resistance, with supers being immune.

All this combined would keep the current jamming ships capabilities about the same as they are now, simplify the system from the pilot standpoint, not having to figure out rough jam chances based on guesswork as to a targets sensor strength, and further eliminate sensor strength all together, which has been a problem area for CCP recently and seems to serve very little gameplay purpose.

Also, un-nerf the falcon so it can jam out at 200+k once again (and get probed down and 0wned), thanks in advance.
Long John Silver
Doomheim
#7 - 2011-11-20 16:58:50 UTC
Errr.... Shocked Might I politely suggest that there are more significant things to focus on at the moment.

**Long John Silver **| Pirate Alt and Forum Troll.

Don Pellegrino
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2011-11-20 17:22:23 UTC
No. There's a reason why highly competitive games have no "stunning" mechanics. It removes a huge part of the player skill/experience influence and instead can make fights depend on the outcome of a random numbers generator.

This game NEEDS a mechanic to neutralize high value targets, but ECM (eve's stunning) is a terrible way to do it. It also scales terribly, a Falcon in a 5v5 can easily keep 3/5 enemy targets permajammed while in large battles ECM is close to useless.
Zhula Guixgrixks
Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations
#9 - 2011-11-20 17:23:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Zhula Guixgrixks
ECM warfare is one of the best balanced in Eve.

ECM hardeners work, still not lot of pilots fit those. It's their problem. Quite cheap LG ECCM implants are
an option too.

ECM drones melt with help of smarbbombs. Use it.

ECM and ECCM works. Even if I don't use ECM very often (good fights) I would not like to see it removed from
game. Generaly speaking all E-war stuff ads lot of variability into the combat, which is good.


Things which need balancing : other E-war platforms

- All e-war drones with exception of ecm suck
- Dampener-ships need rebalancing
- Pilgrim needs rebalancing

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Amro One
One.
One. Space
#10 - 2011-11-20 17:32:07 UTC
Learn to fit a ECCM and stop bitching because you do not like being jammed.

You can jam in real life so you can totally Jam spaceships.

Freaking morons
Serafiel
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2011-11-20 17:33:26 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
I don't want this to turn into a giant debate. I just want to see to know how everyone feels about this game mechanic. Do not go one about what part of the current mechanic needs to be changed or anything like that. The question is simple:

Do you think the current ECM mechanic is good and if not; would you like to see it replaced with something completely new?


ECM? Yeah, i think its fine.

Sincerelly,

Falcon pilot XD
Rod Blaine
Evolution
Northern Coalition.
#12 - 2011-11-20 17:43:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Rod Blaine
I like ECM, what i don't like is all the other kinds of EW, because they are much too weak.
Good strong EW options (and equally strong counters) could make combat alot more dynamic if we'd let it.

Caulk H0lster wrote:

stuff that pretty much amounts to a rebalancing of sensor strenchts across ship classes


Well, sure, rebalancing is good. as long as one ting stays clear; chance based > point based. as in: do not go back to before ECM became chance based.
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#13 - 2011-11-20 17:51:56 UTC
Electronic Warfare needs a revamp.

I purpose that ECM belong to all races but the behavior in how they target jam is what makes them flavored. All capable of destroying target lock.

To the point that ECM becomes a defensive measure not an offensive one.

Caldari projects false electronic images which reduces inbound accuracy.
Gallente scramble targeting information which may break lock better
Amarrian blind the sensors and possible unlock multiple targets instead of just itself
Minmatar would probably work like old times.

Dunno either way it would be something I rather sit down and let all of the Ewar boil into before I cook something up real good.

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Dr Karsun
Coffee Lovers Brewing Club
#14 - 2011-11-20 18:13:50 UTC
It's an awesome thing in the game.

It's just all the other EW ways of fighting that totally suck. ECM is awesome, at best requires so tweaks, while the other E-war weapons are almost totally useless.

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Caulk H0lster
Kazakh Ministry of Wealth Redistribution
#15 - 2011-11-20 18:21:22 UTC
On the point of other EWar besides ECM:

Tracking disruption works very well with the advanced skill, even in ships which don't get TD bonuses.

Target painting works fairly well, but probably should increase a targets sig radius more than it currently does.

Dampeners are terrible. They CAN be put to use in a few situations, but if you're bringing some EWar in your fleet, would you rather reduce the effectiveness of the opponents ships slightly in lock time and range, or would you rather just have them jammed. Yea. Jammed. Almost no reason to use damps whatsoever except highly specialized roles.
Sable Moran
Moran Light Industries
#16 - 2011-11-20 18:25:15 UTC
I see it being pretty much OK. The only issue is that in comparison to other types of EW it is more powerful by far.

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Elson Tamar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2011-11-21 00:19:55 UTC
Yes as i have just started training for a rook
Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#18 - 2011-11-21 00:56:12 UTC
Ewar is quite complex thing overall.

Lets think about falcon or other jamming ships. You will bring falcon to fight so you can engage more enemies at same time. Enemy usually knows ships you will have on fight, yes, competent enemy knows you are having falcon support too.

Then your enemy counts that they need more ships to engage because of falcon will jamm atleast 1 or 2 ships all the time.

So all you get with falcon is that enemy brings even more numbers and then you wonder why people always blob you.

On bigger fights coordinating use of ewar is quite hard job and not many are capable to take full benefits of it.

There is certain setups that are dependable on some sort of ecm support and i approve use of ecm on those but as general use ecm ships just makes you enemy think twice to engage or not. Most of times it is just better to bring more tackling ships than jamming ships.
Apollo Gabriel
Mercatoris
#19 - 2011-11-21 01:01:15 UTC
The only think I dislike about ECM is the ridiculous idea that the other 3 races would NOT use it.

It is chance based, and I wish it were subject to diminishing returns (if it is, I'll say I'm wrong now). If 10 guys activate ECM on you, you're essentially permajammed whereas if 10 guys target paint you, you're fine.

I am being hyperbolic of course, but it sure sits a let above other ewar, and ultimately doesn't really *help* you do more damage.

End of my ramblings tldr: I wish other races used it and caldari got Target painters as their primary ewar.
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The Offerer
Doomheim
#20 - 2011-11-21 01:31:26 UTC
Apollo Gabriel wrote:

It is chance based, and I wish it were subject to diminishing returns (if it is, I'll say I'm wrong now). If 10 guys activate ECM on you, you're essentially permajammed whereas if 10 guys target paint you, you're fine.


Except Target painting is not a primary e-war for any race.

So:
- If 10 guys web you, you will not move at all

can: shoot, tank, target
can't: move

- If 10 guys neut you, you won't have cap at all

can: shoot if missiles/projectiles/drones, target
can't: shoot if lasers/hybrids, tank, move with any speed mod (ab/mwd)

- If 10 guys dampen you, you won't be able to even target your own idle drone that is orbiting your ship

can: tank, move
can't: shoot, target

- if 10 guys jam you, you can not target anything

can: tank, move
can't: shoot, target

Looks to me like neuts are op here, not ECM.
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