Missions & Complexes

Problem
People stopped seeing NPC Defenders missiles and wondered if NPCs were still launching them.

Action Item
Test it.

Summary of Results
* NPCs are still using Defenders
* You're not seeing them because the graphics changed
* NPC Defenders still trigger on "salvos" and not on the number of missile in a salvo. Meaning, the number of missiles in the salvo has no bearing on the NPC Defender launch chance. Thus, the more missiles in the group, the less DPS loss you experience to Defenders.[1]

Test Setup
I used a couple of Core Rear Admirals in the Massive Attack (Serpentis) mission as my targets since they have a 24% chance of firing a Defender and because they have identical shield and armor resists (however all damage was done against shields.)

I used a Tengu with HMLs, Nova T1 missiles, and HML launchers. I orbited the acceleration gate (orbit set at 1500m) in the second pocket and fired missiles at them. I fired 160 salvos (HML launchers hold 40 missiles.) NPCs orbited at least 30+km out.

Test 1: One missile per salvo
160 salvos were fired. 160 missiles in total were launched. The logs show that only 122 missiles hit the target, thus 38 salvos were destroyed. 1 - (160-38) / 160 = .238. End result is that ~24% of salvos were intercepted by NPC Defenders.

Test 2: Six missiles per salvo
160 salvos were fired. (960 missiles in total were launched.) The logs recorded 160 hits. The breakdown of damage per salvo was:
* 32 hits for 251 damage: "251 to Core Rear Admiral - Nova Heavy Missile - Hits"
* 128 hits for 301 damage: "301 to Core Rear Admiral - Nova Heavy Missile - Hits"
* There were no other damage results.
Which means that ~20% of salvos were hit by a Defender. Given the small sample size, 20% is close enough to 24%, unless someone who is good with statistics says otherwise.

Please note that (301 - 251) / 301 = 0.166, i.e. one sixth, which means that one missile in the salvo was being destroyed by the Defender. The lack of damage variety in salvos means that stacks were only getting hit by one Defender. Meaning, if the Defender launch chance was checked for each missile in the volley, then we should have seen volleys that were reduced by two or more Defenders, but we didn't, so it doesn't.

DPS Loss
With one missile per salvo, the DPS loss was 1 - (160 - 38) / 160 = 23.8%.
With six missiles per salvo, the DPS loss was 1 - (960 - 32) /960 = 3.3%


Graphics
Previously, NPC Defenders had very flashy graphics and it was obvious when they were launched. However, with the missile graphics overhaul, NPC Defenders use the new missile graphics as well. They also appear to travel in a straight line. Long story short, Defenders are being launched, but they're harder to see now.



[1] Barring certain NPCs which can kill multiple missiles per defender. This came up a while back, look around post #19.

what if I'm shooting 15km/s cruise missiles

Interesting. I slapped some speed rigs on a Tengu and got 15.5km/s missile speed.

Tentatively, preliminary, not finalized yet, need to do more testing, results seem to possibly indicate that NPC defenders need ~2+ seconds of time to hit. Meaning, at 15km/s missile speed, NPC defenders have a noticeable reduced chance of hitting your missile within 30km. Against a Core Rear Admiral, 111 out of 120 missiles hit when the NPC's range varied from ~30km to 51km. That's a 7.5% defender hit rate versus a 24% launch rate.

Visibly, you could frequently see defenders go wild after missing (same flight path as the pre-missile graphics update,) or you could see them intercept at midrange. There may be some dependence on the server 1 hertz processing rate.

With 10.2km/s speed missiles, at 11-12km, no defenders hit. Around 20-21km range, defenders were hitting ~14% of the time. Defender impacts were occurring right next to the NPC.

Needs more testing with better controls. I'll see what I can see later this week.

It definitely did back in the day - I know because in my VERY early days in null ratting, it was the only way I could break some BS tanks with my humble drake was to orbit right up point blank.

I used to use the same thing against a Raven BS rat in one particular mission. At range it tooks 4 reloads to kill it, at point blank it was dead before the first reload.
Loved using that mission to explain my fitting an AB on a mission Raven back then.

I guess defenders have a max velocity too and if its slower than your missiles they'll never hit?

I just remember something Liang posted years ago in a cnr vs golem thread about a 2 hbt II golem being effectively immune to defenders and that *might* put it on par with a cnr.

I've been meaning to pay attention to it in game, but lately every time I've flown a cnr or golem I've just been using auto-targeting missiles and not paying much attention to that account and more to another account running a gun ship. I will say auto-targeting aggro rules are about as wtf as the defender logic.

and it also might have something to do with high speed breaking the physics engine, something someone mentioned back around the nano nerf.

a pilot linked me this thread. and it gave me a thought....

and cant see defenders because of graphics change .... i wonder (idk if this has ever been tested) would running smart bombs take care of incoming missiles as well in conjunction with Defenders?

At some point, there was a "firewall" fleet doctrine that did exactly that. A wall of ships with smart bombs to take out missiles.

here's some random link i found. You can search for more I'm sure

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=70996

I have been on a quest for a few hours now to try and find out how defender missiles work in PvE and what can be done to countered them, not aided by the fact there's a lot of old information out there and it is scattered all over the place.

Thank you for your informative post, it has cleared a lot of my final questions.

One question remains though; some sources indicate that defender missiles do not effect torpedos because torpedos have hgher hp than the defender missiles do damage. Has this ever been tested, and does it hold true for launcher groups, and/or individual missiles?

Since I am debating flying a golem, I would like to know. Losing a missile per salvo is a much bigger deal there compared to other ships, since every missile counts as two.