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Reminder: Assault Frigates still need to be reworked
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Yummy Chocolate
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2013-11-21 08:28:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Yummy Chocolate
This is a reminder about a thread I opened a couple months ago regarding Assault Frigates and now that Rubicon is done and CCP are working on Rubicon 1.1 I thought it's a good time to bring this up again.

Here's what I suggested back then, with second thoughts applied:

Hawk - Shield Booster Effectiveness bonus should be replaced by 4% Shield Resistance bonus to put it in line with Caldari passive shield tanking.

Ishkur - Add Drone Bandwidth to the existing Drone Bay Size bonus.
Enyo - Add Armor Repairer Effectiveness bonus to the Gallente Frigate skill to keep it in line with the Deimos.

Wolf - Add more armor hitpoints OR a bit more PG and/or CPU.
Jaguar - Replace Optimal Range bonus with Shield Booster Effectiveness.

Assault frigates are all cool and perform nicely in the hands of skilled pilots but I honestly feel they're a little messed up.

Original thread here

Frostys Virpio > CCP: Continously Crying Playerbase

Felicity Love >... was thinking "moar popcorn"... but now, seeing the truly awesome contribution this thread is going to make to the Greater Glory Of EVE.... imagonnamakkadapizza....
Electrique Wizard
Mutually Lucrative Business Proposals
#2 - 2013-11-21 11:13:27 UTC
Yummy Chocolate wrote:
This is a reminder about a thread I opened a couple months ago regarding Assault Frigates and now that Rubicon is done and CCP are working on Rubicon 1.1 I thought it's a good time to bring this up again.

Here's what I suggested back then:

Quote:
Hawk - Shield Booster Effectiveness bonus should be replaced by 4% Shield Resistance bonus to put it in line with Caldari passive shield tanking.

Ishkur - Add Drone Damage to the existing 10% Drone hitpoints bonus to increase DPS.
Enyo - Add Armor Repairer Effectiveness bonus to the Gallente Frigate skill to keep it in line with the Deimos.

Wolf - Add more armor hitpoints OR a bit more PG and/or CPU.
Jaguar - Replace Optimal Range bonus with Shield Booster Effectiveness.


Assault frigates are all cool and perform nicely in the hands of skilled pilots but I honestly feel they're a little messed up.

Original thread here


Hawk: ok
ishkur: remove all turret slots if this happens or it'll be omgwtfop
enyo: ok
wolf : meh
Jag: ok
Vengeance is ok in my eyes, maybe add a slight bit of agility/speed
Retribution is currently one of the most gimped AF's and need a big overhaul.

I am the Zodiac, I am the stars, You are the sorceress, my priestess of Mars, Queen of the night, swathed in satin black, Your ivory flesh upon my torture rack.
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
#3 - 2013-11-21 11:18:06 UTC
Ishkur is already pretty good 50% more drone damage would make it the strongest AF by a long shot.
1 less turret slot and 25% drone damage maybe.

EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
Yummy Chocolate
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#4 - 2013-11-21 13:47:24 UTC
Arya Regnar wrote:
Ishkur is already pretty good 50% more drone damage would make it the strongest AF by a long shot.
1 less turret slot and 25% drone damage maybe.

Good point. OP edited.

Frostys Virpio > CCP: Continously Crying Playerbase

Felicity Love >... was thinking "moar popcorn"... but now, seeing the truly awesome contribution this thread is going to make to the Greater Glory Of EVE.... imagonnamakkadapizza....
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#5 - 2013-11-21 13:50:54 UTC
also slots reduced to 10 like all the other T2/faction frigs for fairness

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Yummy Chocolate
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2013-11-21 13:56:17 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
also slots reduced to 10 like all the other T2/faction frigs for fairness

no.

Frostys Virpio > CCP: Continously Crying Playerbase

Felicity Love >... was thinking "moar popcorn"... but now, seeing the truly awesome contribution this thread is going to make to the Greater Glory Of EVE.... imagonnamakkadapizza....
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#7 - 2013-11-21 15:07:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Lloyd Roses
Most important, the jag needs a fourth turret hardpoint. Else, the 4/4/4 layout is very strong, it just doesn't do much on the offensive side besides tackling/neuting.
Vengeance should have it's boni applied to both rockets and light missiles.
Besides that, Hawk's active tanking bonus should be dropped to 7.5%.

That aside, AFs seem pretty damn fine in every regard. Their capacitors are quite weak in general though, the vengeances cap should rather be guideline. Would potentially break 1v1 frig-pvp though, as AFs in general are barely beatable for a t1 frigate, given both pilots know what they are doing.
Bischopt
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2013-11-21 15:08:04 UTC
Maybe you're not aware but assault frigates were among the very first ships to get rebalanced when CCP started the tiericide. So they've already been done and I'm fairly sure CCP isn't going to touch them for a long time.

Hawk: powerful brawler, you can get a huge tank on those while doing perfectly decent dps to over 20km
ishkur: pretty meh but can work.
enyo: insane dps for a frig
wolf: pretty bad - can work as a kiter
jag: has good options, fast, unpredictable
vengeance: great tank, cap recharge bonus is better than people realise
retribution: can either fit a cruiser tank or act as the best kiting AF there is
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#9 - 2013-11-21 15:17:34 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
also slots reduced to 10 like all the other T2/faction frigs for fairness

Fairness in EVE? Da heck?

Anyways, I disagree with notion that slot numbers must be standartized. Nothing wrong if they are tweaked a bit alongside with stats and bonuses.

Future of T3 cruisers - multi-tool they aspired to be instead of sledgehammer they have become
Yummy Chocolate
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#10 - 2013-11-21 15:54:41 UTC
Bischopt wrote:
Maybe you're not aware but assault frigates were among the very first ships to get rebalanced when CCP started the tiericide. So they've already been done and I'm fairly sure CCP isn't going to touch them for a long time.

And the winner of the Captain Obvious award goes to...






















BISCHOPT! Congratulations!

Frostys Virpio > CCP: Continously Crying Playerbase

Felicity Love >... was thinking "moar popcorn"... but now, seeing the truly awesome contribution this thread is going to make to the Greater Glory Of EVE.... imagonnamakkadapizza....
Yummy Chocolate
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2013-11-21 15:57:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Yummy Chocolate
Lloyd Roses wrote:
Hawk's active tanking bonus should be dropped to 7.5%.


it already is. which doesn't make sense since Caldari would rather use buffer tank with resists rather than active tanking.

Lloyd Roses wrote:
Would potentially break 1v1 frig-pvp though, as AFs in general are barely beatable for a t1 frigate, given both pilots know what they are doing.


That's how ADVANCED FRIGATES are supposed to be. if T1 frigates could easily break T2 frigs, they would be rendered completely worthless.

Frostys Virpio > CCP: Continously Crying Playerbase

Felicity Love >... was thinking "moar popcorn"... but now, seeing the truly awesome contribution this thread is going to make to the Greater Glory Of EVE.... imagonnamakkadapizza....
Isis Dea
Society of Adrift Hope
#12 - 2013-11-21 17:07:28 UTC
This is dumb, they're already op. Fix battleships first. Talk about a ship class that is completely useless for the isk you sink into it.

More Character Customization :: Especially compared to what we had in 2003...
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#13 - 2013-11-21 17:23:56 UTC

Some minor tweaks to some AF's would be alright. For the most part though, they are strong as is:

Hawk - The Hawk is an awesome ship as is... why replace the boost bonus?

Enyo - The Enyo is currently amazing... leave it alone.
Ishkur - This ship received the least change during the balancing pass because it was king-of-the-hill for AF's. It is still decent, just no longer the best. If you must have a "armor rep bonus" gallente AF, give it to the ishkur in lieu of the +5 drone bay capacity bonus (which is a poor bonus they've been getting rid of).

Wolf - Add more armor hitpoints OR a bit more PG and/or CPU. (Tweaks to PG/CPU are generally reasonable).

Jaguar - Replace Optimal Range bonus with Shield Booster Effectiveness.--- This would make the jag in line with the breacher, but would may make this a bit OP.


If you leave the hawk as is, give the Jag & Ishkur active tank bonuses, then you have strong self rep ships in each race. This would be interesting.
The Lobsters
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#14 - 2013-11-21 17:31:27 UTC
Assault ships are in pretty good shape now. The only change worth having I think is swapping the optimal and falloff bonuses on the jag and wolf.

The drone bay bonus on the ishkur seems a bit daft, maybe swap it for tracking. All the other AF's are pretty spot on imo.

That man is the noblest creature may be inferred from the fact that no other creature has contested his claim.
Urkhan Law
Black Rebel Rifter Club
The Devil's Tattoo
#15 - 2013-11-21 18:56:18 UTC
The Lobsters wrote:
The only change worth having I think is swapping the optimal and falloff bonuses on the jag and wolf.

Please no, nice for the Jag, but terrible for the AC Wolf - which can still cause some pain when controlled at the moment.
Yummy Chocolate
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2013-11-21 20:27:38 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Hawk - The Hawk is an awesome ship as is... why replace the boost bonus?


Hawk is probably the only caldari subcap to enjoy an active tank bonus instead of shield resistances.

Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Enyo - The Enyo is currently amazing... leave it alone.


You don't want the enyo to be buffed? now that's a first.

Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
If you must have a "armor rep bonus" gallente AF, give it to the ishkur in lieu of the +5 drone bay capacity bonus (which is a poor bonus they've been getting rid of).


you're way off there.

Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Jaguar --- This would make the jag in line with the breacher, but would may make this a bit OP.


Try "consistent with Minmatar Style Active Tanking".

Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
If you leave the hawk as is, give the Jag & Ishkur active tank bonuses, then you have strong self rep ships in each race. This would be interesting.


about the only line from your post I can agree with. other than that it's just wong on so many levels.

Frostys Virpio > CCP: Continously Crying Playerbase

Felicity Love >... was thinking "moar popcorn"... but now, seeing the truly awesome contribution this thread is going to make to the Greater Glory Of EVE.... imagonnamakkadapizza....
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#17 - 2013-11-21 20:33:08 UTC
Bischopt wrote:
Maybe you're not aware but assault frigates were among the very first ships to get rebalanced when CCP started the tiericide. So they've already been done and I'm fairly sure CCP isn't going to touch them for a long time.


Bears repeating. Bear

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#18 - 2013-11-21 20:59:21 UTC
Yummy Chocolate wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Hawk - The Hawk is an awesome ship as is... why replace the boost bonus?


Hawk is probably the only caldari subcap to enjoy an active tank bonus instead of shield resistances.

Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Enyo - The Enyo is currently amazing... leave it alone.


You don't want the enyo to be buffed? now that's a first.

Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
If you must have a "armor rep bonus" gallente AF, give it to the ishkur in lieu of the +5 drone bay capacity bonus (which is a poor bonus they've been getting rid of).


you're way off there.

Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Jaguar --- This would make the jag in line with the breacher, but would may make this a bit OP.


Try "consistent with Minmatar Style Active Tanking".


One thing you should familiarize yourself with before suggesting changes to ships in EvE online, is the concept of balance.

Hawk: The resist bonus is THE STRONGEST SHIP BONUS CCP gives ships. Putting a resist bonus on a 5-mid, rocket spewing, t2 base resist frigate hull would be over the top. I can already make 15k EHP Harpies, and certainly don't need a rocket version with an extra EWAR slot...

Enyo: Because my 300 dps, 10k EHP, active tanking beast doesn't NEED to be buffed. It already decimates most ships in its class.

Ishkur: They got rid of the +50 drone bay on the Ishtar and instead gave it a static drone bay. To be frank, they should remove all the "+x bay capacity" bonuses, and give these ships a static drone bay in general. This bonus is generally crap. Now, the ishkur is currently middle of the road (where it used to lead the pack). If you left it with a static 50 m3 bay and gave it the "armor rep bonus" it would probably be OP (or close to it). I think this is on the right track, but needs to be appropriately toned.

Jaguar: Same caution I recommend with the Ishkur... CCP wants these ships to be balanced, not omg pwnmobiles. While the optimal range bonus of the jag is moderately "meh" for autocannons (just like the drone bay capacity bonus is pretty meh), an active tank bonus in lie of this mediocre bonus could easily boost this ship too much.


Yummy Chocolate
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#19 - 2013-11-22 18:01:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Yummy Chocolate
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
One thing you should familiarize yourself with before suggesting changes to ships in EvE online, is the concept of balance.

Hawk: The resist bonus is THE STRONGEST SHIP BONUS CCP gives ships. Putting a resist bonus on a 5-mid, rocket spewing, t2 base resist frigate hull would be over the top. I can already make 15k EHP Harpies, and certainly don't need a rocket version with an extra EWAR slot...

Enyo: Because my 300 dps, 10k EHP, active tanking beast doesn't NEED to be buffed. It already decimates most ships in its class.

Ishkur: They got rid of the +50 drone bay on the Ishtar and instead gave it a static drone bay. To be frank, they should remove all the "+x bay capacity" bonuses, and give these ships a static drone bay in general. This bonus is generally crap. Now, the ishkur is currently middle of the road (where it used to lead the pack). If you left it with a static 50 m3 bay and gave it the "armor rep bonus" it would probably be OP (or close to it). I think this is on the right track, but needs to be appropriately toned.

Jaguar: Same caution I recommend with the Ishkur... CCP wants these ships to be balanced, not omg pwnmobiles. While the optimal range bonus of the jag is moderately "meh" for autocannons (just like the drone bay capacity bonus is pretty meh), an active tank bonus in lie of this mediocre bonus could easily boost this ship too much.


Speaking of balance, I don't know if you're aware of the fact that the hawk is the toughest to kill solo.
also, in the thread that you linked, fozzie says that a FIVE PERCENT BONUS to resists ends up 3% LESS EFFECTIVE than a 7.5 active tank bonus, and therefore all ships with resistance bonuses have had that bonus REDUCED.

Enyo - 10K EHP ACTIVE TANK? you don't seem to know the definition of "Effective Hit Points".

Ishkur... an active tanking bonus does not fit with the creodron set of bonuses. sure the Eos has it, but that's because until rubicon it was a variation of the Brutix which has the active tanking bonus. that is why this bonus fits better with the Enyo, which is supposed to be a baby Deimos.

and the Jaguar? being the frigate sized counterpart of the Vagabond, and considering Minmatar prefer an active tank with shield boosters, then including the fact that the Jag is one of the AFs with the LEAST amount of DPS, it really deserves a shield booster bonus - especially now that people are changing their Jag fits to dual ASB.

and last but not least, if CCP didn't want AFs to be pwnmobiles they wouldn't have modified the Enyo to be able to deal >300 DPS.

bottom line is, your post is way off. think carefully about what you say.

Frostys Virpio > CCP: Continously Crying Playerbase

Felicity Love >... was thinking "moar popcorn"... but now, seeing the truly awesome contribution this thread is going to make to the Greater Glory Of EVE.... imagonnamakkadapizza....
Randy Wray
Warcrows
THE OLD SCHOOL
#20 - 2013-11-22 21:33:27 UTC
jaguar and ishkur are the ones I feel need some help, the rest is a nice bunch.

Solo Pvper in all areas of space including wormhole space. Check out my youtube channel @ http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCd6M3xV43Af-3E1ds0tTyew/feed for mostly small scale pvp in lowsec/nullsec

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