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New dev blog: Anomalies revisited

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Aylanaa
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#221 - 2011-11-17 22:21:37 UTC
Evelgrivion wrote:
Aylanaa wrote:
**** you and your game


This is all I have to say about that.


three cancelled accounts so yea i did deal with it
Melkie
Did he say Jump
Dock Workers
#222 - 2011-11-17 23:27:04 UTC
Mrs Troutslayer wrote:


If you make 90mill an hour doing anomalies, and it is nerfed to 60, then I would say they did not swing the nerf bat hard enough.

This thing should be nerfed to get in line with regular sanctums.[/quote]

But these really should pay more per hour than regular sanctums if you want it it to be fair and equal. Figure in the time moving the alloys to market or building stuff / updating market orders of said stuff and that raw isk / hour number goes way down. Regular sanctums give you instant isk, you don't even have to have a salvage partner of go back and salvage yourself. Just kill rats, 20 minutes later you have isk in your wallet. Unless you've lived in drone space you can't fully appreciate the logistics of "making isk" in drone space. Sure individuals with a good logistical backbone may find it easy if there are buy orders up for alloys, but someone is putting in the time to do something with all that drone poo to convert it to isk.
[/quote]
I agree, people who run drone anoms should make more because of the logistical nightmare it is to get the goo to High Sec. Now it will be less than a regular one? That makes a load of sense. . .
Tenris Anis
Schattenengel Clan
#223 - 2011-11-17 23:27:30 UTC
S8nt wrote:
Hi,

With the calculations now done with these Anomalies, could you please now go work out the following:

- ISK per hour for mining in belts in say angel space where there is a crapload of ABC's
- ISK per hour mining in say Tribute where there is no ABC's
- ISK per hour mining in system upgraded Grav sites at say a resonable level 3 or 4?

Please CCP, if there is one thing you do this expansion, please fix mining so that it doesn't have to be bot run to make a semi decent income.

S8nt


Impossible as long as bots doing our mining stuff income will always suck here, because bots can do it always cheaper than you. So forget mining as game content simply until it gets a whole rework on it.

And I still think that making out of mining a guitar hero style rhythm game would be the best solution ;-)

RaZor Flash wrote:


All CCP did was add more ships (BS and BCs to pump up the ISK:EHP ratio) to the anomalies, effectively making them harder to run, so you can't solo them as easily as you could.

The bounties on the ships have not changed, at all.


I have tried a few serpentis heavens with angle tank fitted, and emp ammo ... still work out fine, even when I have to admit I had to speed tank which cost me damage. And I have to admit furthermore that the anomaly still was not worth it. LP are simply more worth than bounties or faction drops on average.

Remove insurance.
Tenris Anis
Schattenengel Clan
#224 - 2011-11-17 23:30:15 UTC
Melkie wrote:

I agree, people who run drone anoms should make more because of the logistical nightmare it is to get the goo to High Sec. Now it will be less than a regular one? That makes a load of sense. . .


There is a single rule in eve. If something else is more worth than something else, than by all means don´t do the one that gives you less isk. In most cases prices will adapt, though I have to admit no by much in the case of drone poo, because mineral prices are not player but bot related.

Remove insurance.
Elsa Nietchize
Doomheim
#225 - 2011-11-18 03:57:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Elsa Nietchize
I hope Hilmar is reading this thread and he holds Greyscale accountable for these changes. Greyscale has already ruined the game once. If there's another exodus, maybe he'll be fired, or atleast reassigned. Nothing gets fixed without metrics and accountability.

edit: HTFU Hilmar
pmchem
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#226 - 2011-11-18 05:05:53 UTC
the only exodus this game change will cause will be of python injected bots supplying drone poo to sell for isk which is then RMT'd. some of those bots may change to L4 missions instead.

everyone else will realize they're still making better isk/hour than most players out there and go on with doing things like pew pew and training neat skills and buying fancy ships since crucible is gonna be awesome

death2allbots

https://twitter.com/pmchem/ || http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/community-spotlight-garpa/ || Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
EI Digin
irc.zulusquad.org
#227 - 2011-11-18 05:23:43 UTC
I'm really disappointed by the lack of feedback, the lack of people understanding what's going on here, and the many blind reactionary statements in this thread. Hopefully I can turn it around.

Tonight I decided to put the anomaly changes to the test. I cheaply put together an average, T2 fit ishkur (speed tanked, and decent DPS) and sloppily went through a low-valued anomaly in lowsec. The only site in the system was a Sansha's Rally Point, which is a middle of the road lowsec site, and the lowest value that spawns in null. I chose the Ishkur because it is speed/sig tanked (although I had a shield booster just in case), has a decent amount of dps at range because of drones, and because it is not too expensive.

~40 minutes later (could have been about 25-30 minimum if I was paying more attention, I think) I was the proud new owner of ~4 million isk. Sad

If I could churn through 2-3 low leveled anomalies in lowsec in a cheap assault frigate in an hour, I could make about 1/4th of the amount anyone could make safely doing missions in highsec (10m/hr best case vs 40m/hr). If I ran anomalies for about 3 hours, I could replace the loss of my ship.

I applaud your attempt, but your changes are not drastic enough on the low end at least, and it won't be enough to get people out of missions in highsec. The lowend is what needs to be addressed to make terrible space (bad 0.0, hell even lowsec!) worthwhile.

Evidence of my crimes: http://i.imgur.com/iQcm9.jpg
Yes, I am a total scrub, but so is the average EVE player.
mkint
#228 - 2011-11-18 05:48:28 UTC
Avila Cracko wrote:
mkint wrote:
Avila Cracko wrote:
Question for CCP:

Are you going to do anything to help mineral market in EVE???

prices or minerals are at bottom... and there is too much mineral faucets in EVE...
that's hurting all industry in EVE, ship and modules diversity in EVE and EVE itself...
Look at drones and tell me how isn't it wrong that raven is better miner then any miner... how is it logic that more minerals in EVE is coming from killing things then from mining...
how is logic that you get more materials to build a plane by shooting a plane than by mining???
Re-balance eve a little...
And stop killing industry in EVE... and with it EVE itself...

And... you know... EVE is not only pew-pew...
read and not pew-pew ppl opinions...
and so something for them sometimes...

Mineral faucets have been DECREASED over the past year. You're missing the other side of the equation. Sinks.

There's nothing in EVE worth fighting over, so people are not fighting, so minerals are not being destroyed, so supply is outpacing demand, so prices are dropping.


These days ppl everything calling "DECREASE"...
Yea... when you lower the price of apartment from 300.000€ to 299.999€ its still DECREASE in price... Roll

My point is that players decide mineral prices. Players themselves are the mineral faucets and sinks. Mining is easy so it will always pay crap.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
Tenris Anis
Schattenengel Clan
#229 - 2011-11-18 08:20:36 UTC
mkint wrote:

Mining is easy to bot so it will always pay crap.


fixed.
And a fix on mining would make it somehow not as easy to bot as it is now. Most likely this would increase the fun as well.

Remove insurance.
Tekota
The Freighter Factory
#230 - 2011-11-18 08:43:18 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:

The data I have in front of me suggest that - excluding PLEX - inflation has been relatively stable since mid 2008. We generally see increased volatility around expansions, but our CPI today is about the same as it was circa Q2 2008. We do need to do more work to balance out our ISK flows, but we also need people to be playing our game, and specifically we need people to be running anomalies if we want nullsec to be a healthy area of the game.


I'm a little confused by this when it appears to contradict directly statements put out in the past. Eg. the last QEN (Q4 2010, released prior to incursions) has:

Q4 2010 QEN wrote:

EVE Central Bank has been monitoring the money supply closely and is becoming increasingly concerned about the rate of growth in the total money supply and the subsequent risk of inflation increase (see next section). The bank has therefore proposed that in 2011 there should be a focus on increasing ISK sinks in order to curb potential inflation.


The price indices put out (near) monthly also would appear to suggest significant year on year inflation with the latest September 2011 indices showing:

Mineral Price Index (12mth change): 19.5 percent
Primary Producer Price Index (12mth change): 24.5 percent
Secondary Producer Price Index (12mth change): 8.1 percent
Consumer Price Index (12mth change): 7.6 percent

(the Consumer Price Index I understand to include PLEX so feel free to disregard that one)


It is eminently possible (nay, likely) that I am reading all this wrong; I'd appreciate any pointers as to how I'm misinterpreting what appear to be contradictory statement and data.
Severian Carnifex
#231 - 2011-11-18 12:49:44 UTC
Avila Cracko wrote:
Question for CCP:

Are you going to do anything to help mineral market in EVE???

prices or minerals are at bottom... and there is too much mineral faucets in EVE...
that's hurting all industry in EVE, ship and modules diversity in EVE and EVE itself...
Look at drones and tell me how isn't it wrong that raven is better miner then any miner... how is it logic that more minerals in EVE is coming from killing things then from mining...
how is logic that you get more materials to build a plane by shooting a plane than by mining???
Re-balance eve a little...
And stop killing industry in EVE... and with it EVE itself...

And... you know... EVE is not only pew-pew...
read and not pew-pew ppl opinions...
and so something for them sometimes...



Soooo signed...
This person knows THE PROBLEM...
Asyrdin Harate
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#232 - 2011-11-18 13:12:51 UTC
from what i saw on test server:

1st spawn of anoms is too hard and out of proportion with the rest of the anom.
Zendoren
Aktaeon Industries
#233 - 2011-11-18 19:07:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Zendoren
CCP Greyscale wrote:


The tricky bit once we start factoring market price stuff is that market prices change over time, so the assumptions we make right now won't necessarily hold true in future, whereas isk is isk. It is something we want to look into extending our tools into, but it becomes a much fuzzier area of balance.

And yes, getting better metrics on things like completion times is high up on our to-log list :)


not to be an ass but, you wont have this issues if you guys would continue to iterate and tweak the game every patch or put in mechanics that don't rely on the market or the silly idea of fairness =P

Good job so far CCP Greyscale, keep up the work! Also, keep those answer posts coming! We only beat the crap out of you with our comments because we care! ^_^


Asyrdin Harate wrote:
from what i saw on test server:

1st spawn of anoms is too hard and out of proportion with the rest of the anom.



We need a name of the anom you found this at!

❒ Single ❒ Taken ✔ Playing EVE Online

CCP Guard > Where's the shoot button on this thing?

CCP Space Cadet > What's this "offline guns" button do?
RaZor Flash
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#234 - 2011-11-18 22:02:02 UTC  |  Edited by: RaZor Flash
Zendoren wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:


The tricky bit once we start factoring market price stuff is that market prices change over time, so the assumptions we make right now won't necessarily hold true in future, whereas isk is isk. It is something we want to look into extending our tools into, but it becomes a much fuzzier area of balance.

And yes, getting better metrics on things like completion times is high up on our to-log list :)


not to be an ass but, you wont have this issues if you guys would continue to iterate and tweak the game every patch or put in mechanics that don't rely on the market or the silly idea of fairness =P

Good job so far CCP Greyscale, keep up the work! Also, keep those answer posts coming! We only beat the crap out of you with our comments because we care! ^_^


Asyrdin Harate wrote:
from what i saw on test server:

1st spawn of anoms is too hard and out of proportion with the rest of the anom.



We need a name of the anom you found this at!


The anomaly he is referring to is the forsaken hubs. The initial wave is significantly harder.

I guess CCP thinks that everyone just rats in a carrier and doesn't need to care about tank.

Before Patch
Rally points really easy, Hubs, semi difficult, havens hard, sanctums hardest

Now..
The rally point i just warped into was harder than the hub, the hub i just warped into was harder than the haven.

I dont know if you changed anything but today I just warped to a

Forsaken Hub :
7 popes (BS) (full damage at 50km) and 7 bcs is simply too much damage. Corpus B-Type mod for tank in abaddon. Couldn't tank it
Forsaken Rally Point
11 Battleships(various types) 4 Hacs and 3 frigates upon warp in. I was getting destroyed. (It wasn't like this yesterday...)

Haven:
3 Popes 3 Cardinals 3 hacs 3 bs and 2 sentry guns. (I could tank this one)

Sanctum:
7 battleships 3 bcs - (I could tank this one).

Greyscale you asked for specific examples

I am telling you:
Forsaken Hubs and Rally points. I would really appreciate if you balanced them. They need to be a step down from havens and sanctums, not a step up. The easiest way to do this, is to create move waves or simply lessen the # of ships per wave.

I was able to do sanctums and havens and not the hubs and the rally point today. Are you honestly going to try to tell me that's intentional?

I *really* hope you can get this done before patch.

*not everyone uses a carrier or a t3 to rat in 0.0*
Asyrdin Harate
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#235 - 2011-11-19 01:10:14 UTC
i was referring to forsaken hubs in this case yes, but i noticed that lower end anomalies also spawn 6ish BS with equal amount of BC excluding any additional triggers.

i believe the max number a t2 fitted abaddon can tank with perfect skills is about 5 without getting in serious trouble or sacrificing significant amounts of DPS for tank.

In my case i can manage quite well even with things being this hard but imagine a low skill char with like 40M sp and some industrial training ...will be impossible to just any anoms anymore
BeanBagKing
The Order of Atlas
#236 - 2011-11-19 08:51:51 UTC  |  Edited by: BeanBagKing
CCP Greyscale wrote:

This wasn't changed as part of this project, this was changed as part of a bugfix. They're both going out in Crucible, so the timing's pretty unfortunate, but it's a separate issue. And again, the amount of money being made in this way was way higher than intended, that's part of the reason for making the change in the first place (the other part being that it was possible to totally break the site, of course).

Malakai wrote:

Giving the bunkers 5-10x more HP would have probably fixed the 'one shot pop / no spawn' issue, surely ?


Wait, so the bug was "one shot no spawn" so rather than fix the actual bug, or put in a work around (like more HP), you removed it all together?

This is a horrible way to "fix" an issue, especially at such an "unfortunate" time. All the Anoms get a buff to line up more closely with what drone anoms make, and then drone anoms get what is effectively a nerf (for reasons others have explained already). That's no so much unfortunate, as it is ******* the drone residents, who already have to have a salvage follow them around, and then have to turn that poo into liquid isk somehow before a dime ever hits our wallets. Seriously, go back and look at this.

Hell, I'd rather live with the bug than with this fix, that tells me there's something really wrong with your method.
Trespasser
S0utherN Comfort
#237 - 2011-11-19 12:11:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Trespasser
Alot of good points from the drone regions in here.


The drone regions create so many minerals for the whole of eve its really quite insane. While this doesnt affect me personally because i dont mine, it does effect people who do and this is the big reason why minerals are so depressed. Its just a massive spawn of alloys all the time.


I think the best way to fix this, is just give the drones bounty's and loot like every other npc in the game, thus removing alloys and a HUGE amount of minerals from the game. With this change i feel that mineral prices will rebound quite well given time and thus would make everything a bit more pricey. This would also bring back mining as a legit profession again and maybe people will start doing it like they did back in 03-04.


With these changes everyone can get about the same amount of cash per hour and we wouldnt be having this issue.


Im sorry greyscale but with these changes, bug or not .. it looks like your boosting everyone else and penalizing us in the drone regions.

It wouldnt be that hard to just boost the bunkers HP, or have everything spawn when you warp into it.. or change the spawns to the turret placements etc etc.

CCP have been showing great amount of improvement this winter... I really find it hard to understand that you guys dont have enough time to increase the hp or just leave the hordes how they are till you have time to patch it.
Valtrinor
S0utherN Comfort
#238 - 2011-11-19 14:03:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Valtrinor
Trespasser wrote:
[--SNIP--]
Im sorry greyscale but with these changes, bug or not .. it looks like your boosting everyone else and penalizing us in the drone regions.

It wouldnt be that hard to just boost the bunkers HP, or have everything spawn when you warp into it.. or change the spawns to the turret placements etc etc.

CCP have been showing great amount of improvement this winter... I really find it hard to understand that you guys dont have enough time to increase the hp or just leave the hordes how they are till you have time to patch it.

This. Everything about this. Still not 100% sold on the stuff snipped, but can see the point there too. Don't destroy an entire type of site over one little (annoying, but meh, there's ways around) bug.

Twitter: @Valtrinor
BigCountry
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#239 - 2011-11-19 21:18:07 UTC
Avila Cracko wrote:
Question for CCP:

Are you going to do anything to help mineral market in EVE???

prices or minerals are at bottom... and there is too much mineral faucets in EVE...
that's hurting all industry in EVE, ship and modules diversity in EVE and EVE itself...
Look at drones and tell me how isn't it wrong that raven is better miner then any miner... how is it logic that more minerals in EVE is coming from killing things then from mining...
how is logic that you get more materials to build a plane by shooting a plane than by mining???
Re-balance eve a little...
And stop killing industry in EVE... and with it EVE itself...

And... you know... EVE is not only pew-pew...
read and not pew-pew ppl opinions...
and so something for them sometimes...



This was a silly read.... Drone Alloys are not killing industry or EVE.... it may be putting a noose on miners ... but miners are not all taht make up "Industry"

Im sure ppl that manufacture love the low prices... higher mineral prices do not mean higher profits, well not for manufacturing ppl.... Plus I think you might be wrong .. consider low ends are higher now then they have been in a long time ...high ends prices are not because of alloys...
S8nt
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#240 - 2011-11-19 22:32:34 UTC
BigCountry wrote:
Avila Cracko wrote:
Question for CCP:

Are you going to do anything to help mineral market in EVE???

prices or minerals are at bottom... and there is too much mineral faucets in EVE...
that's hurting all industry in EVE, ship and modules diversity in EVE and EVE itself...
Look at drones and tell me how isn't it wrong that raven is better miner then any miner... how is it logic that more minerals in EVE is coming from killing things then from mining...
how is logic that you get more materials to build a plane by shooting a plane than by mining???
Re-balance eve a little...
And stop killing industry in EVE... and with it EVE itself...

And... you know... EVE is not only pew-pew...
read and not pew-pew ppl opinions...
and so something for them sometimes...



This was a silly read.... Drone Alloys are not killing industry or EVE.... it may be putting a noose on miners ... but miners are not all taht make up "Industry"

Im sure ppl that manufacture love the low prices... higher mineral prices do not mean higher profits, well not for manufacturing ppl.... Plus I think you might be wrong .. consider low ends are higher now then they have been in a long time ...high ends prices are not because of alloys...


If mineral prices go up, manufacturers will make their prices higher. Killing battleships for alloys is a bit of an unrealistic source of minerals. CCP just needs to listen to the hundreds of players that suggested to changes the alloys to bounties.

I do approve of the changes made to the new alloy mineral changes on the test server. This should really help with the collapsed high end mineral market prices.