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Could CCP be about to repeat Incarna?

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David Kir
Hotbirds
#81 - 2013-11-17 19:16:20 UTC
Shakira Khalessi wrote:
OP is right.


Quite the significant contribution, isn't it?

And then people wonder why doesn't the average player bother with these forums.

Friends are like cows: if you eat them, they die.
Abulurd Boniface
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#82 - 2013-11-17 20:51:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Abulurd Boniface
I do believe in this expansion. A lot of the big stink of Incarna was there were no FiS elements to it, or certainly not enough.

With Rubicon we're on the first leg of a journey to a radically different [I did not say: better, but I'm hoping] EVE.

The features announced are FiS through and through. You will get great new equipment and a totally novel way to frustrate the hell out of your opposition. I can definitely see this working.

I'm going to assume they have an arc for this, with a plan to implement steps through that arc so they get to go where they want to take EVE. I do believe that. I saw CCP Seagull at fanfest. I saw eagerness and the joy of working on an amazing product. We also get, and there's decidedly not enough of it, a female perspective on the development of New Eden. I fully expect to see that expressed now there's a woman in the driver's seat. And for all you neck beards who think women are too soft for EVE, I give you the words of Louis CK, our latter day philosopher: "A man will cut your arm off and throw it in a river, but he’ll leave you as a human being intact. He won’t **** with who you are. Women are non-violent, but they will **** inside of your heart." It makes me scared to have a woman at the helm. And that is how it's supposed to be.

Other than that, to dissuade you from the idea that I think CCP can do no wrong:

- giving Somer Blink all those shinies... that was way too generous

- making Dust players whole again who were expertly conned out of their corp's assets by an EVE veteran: are you absolutely kidding me?

- the whole daft thing with impersonation. Seriously? You can get banned for impersonating yourself? That makes sense now?

I don't believe for a moment that CCP have lost their way. If you've slogged at a place like New Eden for almost 15 years, it becomes a lot more than just a fad. Other MMOs have come and gone. Other MMOs will come and go. EVE is for the long haul. I want to be an insufferable old fart when kids who are not even born yet finally make their way into the vast arena of stupefying splendour that EVE will have further evolved into by then and crush their precocious little souls as I extract their tears, the most valuable commodity in all of New Eden.

And all of you adorable smegheads want to be there too, and you know it.

Rubicon is going to be good. Give yourself some respite and stop whining about details. Look at the bigger picture, paint a larger canvas and see a path towards a bright future in this, the most fabulous playground on the intertubes today.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#83 - 2013-11-17 20:52:56 UTC
Let's see…

Does it cover a completely new direction for the game?
Do we have a three year old prototype on public that has been scrapped?
Do we have a lot of people clamouring for the content?
Do we have a downward trend in population?
Do we have a string of panicked attempt to reverse that trend with short-gain efforts?
Is it the delivery on half a decade of hype?
Is the final product less functional that the three year old prototype (i.e. it under-delivers on something already delivered)?
Is it preceded by two years of near inactivity?
Is it combined with an attempt to introduce a completely new business model based around double-dipping?
Is it combined with a complete lack of market research?
Does it ignore customer feedback?
Does it ignore known player behaviour?
Does it ignore the fact that there is a meta-game to go with the game?
Does it break people's computers?
Does it break old promises about the direction of the game?
Does it remove functionality from the game?
Does it **** off every third-party community project?
Does it ignore or contradict core game design elements?
Does it ignore or contradict game lore?

That's maybe ⅓ of the boxes that need to be ticked before we're “about to repeat Incarna”. Being at the front end of what might be that half-decade hype doesn't even come close to start filling them in, and long hype alone wasn't what created the Incarna fiasco (PI had just as long a delivery, and only resulted in a shrug when it finally under-delivered).

The dynamics of the summer of rage is a bit more complex than how people tend to describe it.
Rekkr Nordgard
Steelforge Heavy Industries
#84 - 2013-11-17 21:07:30 UTC
Rubicon will not be another Incarna for the simple fact that Rubicon is utterly lackluster in content, both promised and delivered. CCP's strategy seems to be that if they don't offer big features, then there will never be a big blowup. And thus we get our current situation - mediocre patches and a slow motion train wreck.
Abulurd Boniface
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#85 - 2013-11-17 21:11:27 UTC
Rekkr Nordgard wrote:
Rubicon will not be another Incarna for the simple fact that Rubicon is utterly lackluster in content, both promised and delivered. CCP's strategy seems to be that if they don't offer big features, then there will never be a big blowup. And thus we get our current situation - mediocre patches and a slow motion train wreck.


I keep reading this kind of comment and I'm getting a little tired of it.

It's not that you're not entitled to your opinion, by all means do express yourself freely. It's the straight-through-the-floor negativity that gets me.

So, do tell us, if it was up to you, your decision entirely, to be minutely executed by CCP: what would you want Rubicon to do for you? You are restricted by nothing at all. Go wild!
Red Teufel
Calamitous-Intent
#86 - 2013-11-17 21:13:24 UTC
I'm not a fan of helmar. Honestly after that huge fiasco where he almost resigned...really he should have resigned. anyways it looks like he is going to let seagull take his vision to new heights. I like this progress and I think EvE will be going on strong for years to come If Seagull's vision is a huge hit i think she should take the reigns of the company when helmar retires. anyways gl seagull.
Arduemont
Rotten Legion
#87 - 2013-11-17 21:25:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Arduemont
Abulurd Boniface wrote:

So, do tell us, if it was up to you, your decision entirely, to be minutely executed by CCP: what would you want Rubicon to do for you? You are restricted by nothing at all. Go wild!


I empathise with him to be honest. If I had to answer your question, my answer would simply be "more". All the changes they are making are great, well thought through, interesting etc. It just doesn't seem enough.

"In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." www.stateofwar.co.nf
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#88 - 2013-11-17 21:38:26 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:

Translation: EVE will die if it doesn't give me what I want.

It's nonsense, and it demonstrates than many establish players are too close to the game to see things clearly. Rubicon might not seem like a big deal to some established players, but that's just shortsightedness.


Wrong, you have no idea about what I want in EvE and it's absolutely not what anyone in this thread has written nor what any CCP dev has announced. I still play EvE well knowing I will never get that.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Rekkr Nordgard
Steelforge Heavy Industries
#89 - 2013-11-17 21:40:44 UTC
Abulurd Boniface wrote:
Rekkr Nordgard wrote:
Rubicon will not be another Incarna for the simple fact that Rubicon is utterly lackluster in content, both promised and delivered. CCP's strategy seems to be that if they don't offer big features, then there will never be a big blowup. And thus we get our current situation - mediocre patches and a slow motion train wreck.


I keep reading this kind of comment and I'm getting a little tired of it.

It's not that you're not entitled to your opinion, by all means do express yourself freely. It's the straight-through-the-floor negativity that gets me.

So, do tell us, if it was up to you, your decision entirely, to be minutely executed by CCP: what would you want Rubicon to do for you? You are restricted by nothing at all. Go wild!


It's not so much that what's in Rubicon is bad as, with so many half-completed and broken features in Eve, they chose to do THAT instead?!?!
JamDunc
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#90 - 2013-11-17 21:41:37 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
It's just a law of symmetry.

How many times have we read people demanding EvE to forever stick to an early 2000 game play, where you MUST be super-social, super committed, join super corps, basically live EvE (this usually happens in pro null seccers vs everyone else)? Else you are meant to have a miserable life, don't deserve any kind of reward, should possibly die slowly eaten alive by scarabs.

But many know this is not early 2000 any more and the world has changed and with it the playerbase has changed as well. Many MMOs had to adapt to the new players RL induced necessities or died.


In the same fashion, the glorious pre-2000 developers days have gone.

Even CCP employees often blame a lot the elder CCP developers and their "spaghetti, inestricable code" and even design decisions. But then, THOSE were the old school devs with loads and loads of vision.
Yes they coded in a furious and confused way yet THEY brought EvE to life not the SCRUM era employees.

Those early devs would also imagine those "Jesus expansions" and then deliver them - usually with tons of mistakes, incidents a la boot.ini but in the end the stuff was delivered.
Over time natural turnover, promotion etc. made those early devs slowly disappear or lose contact with the playerbase needs. They slowly got replaced by "new gen" devs and designers.

Technically these are more orderly, more adherent to good practices, more... a lot of stuff. Yet there's somehow less "Insanity and genius" about them, the epic taste has gone. Sure, having 2 years of bugfixes is nice and all, but is this all what we can aim to now? It's little creativity at work here. Worse, they are losing contact with the ever running evolution in the rest of the gaming world.
The gaming world don't care for academic achievements like proving a console game could attach into an existing MMO, it cared to get Wormholes. It cared to get playable WiS not a proof of concept engine.

Anyway CCP should try and get back some of those scarce visionary designers.

Imagine what a guy like Chris Taylor or Chris Roberts could do to EvE. People that could single handedly affect the gaming industry just because they thought farter and higher.
EvE should routinely beat itself. EvE should not just have "emergent gameplay" but used to be and should return being "emergent developing".

Example: EvE started with a revolutionary concept - and underlying technology - to allow a one shard universe.
That was emergent developing.

Example of the new course: TiDi. It's a nice concept but it's a "defensive, defeated guy approach" to tackle the issue it tries to fix. Had it been the "real" CCP they'd have concoted something absolutely incredible and bold, like i.e. introducing multi-threaded clusters, sub-grid dynamic players entities management and so on. All of this possibly created in a small room full of smoke, furiously coding 18h a day "a la old times" and possibly with who knows how many issues. But in the end it'd give a new generation of lag-less gameplay.

But as I said above, it's not golden times any more. Players would not accept having a less than 99.95% servers functionality even with such a feature being delivered. And devs would not accept the "18h a day in a small room full of smoke" old way of delivering stuff.

Therefore we are in a post-golden times gaming era, where players are not the ones we could have back in the day, nor developers.


One of the best posts I have read in years
Rak Jakuard
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#91 - 2013-11-17 21:43:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Rak Jakuard
We're yet to discover what all of this is leading to, I think it's too soon to express ourselves on the possible outcome.

EDIT: Oh, by the way: I was just reading this, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge%27s_law_of_headlines, I hope you'll find it funny.
JamDunc
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#92 - 2013-11-17 22:00:38 UTC
Rak Jakuard wrote:
We're yet to discover what all of this is leading to, I think it's too soon to express ourselves on the possible outcome.

EDIT: Oh, by the way: I was just reading this, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge%27s_law_of_headlines, I hope you'll find it funny.


TBH its a very smart move by CCP from a marketing perspective. For the next 4 years as long as they produce 'something' every 6 months, the white knights will invade any conversation about lack of content and scream 'the VISION' in the same way as the forums were full of people screaming but Walking in Stations will be amazing for years.

This Vision buys CCP 4 years of producing pretty much anything without major complaints. The blowback if it proves to be smoke a mirrors will be huge, but most will have left CCP by then. Just like the old Russian 5 year plans that they knew would never happen.

I hope I am wrong, but CCP do not have a good track record of following things through or being able to focus on one idea for more than a short period of time.
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#93 - 2013-11-17 22:19:52 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Evei Shard wrote:
As for the Rubicon expansion, I'm still left wondering if CCP is at a point that they *can't* do anything more with Eve. That they've hit some hard limits on code or technology, and so on, and that they are now in a mode of treading water, just trying to keep the playerbase subscribing until they get WoD out (and perhaps foolishly assuming that it will save them financially).

On the other hand, I imagine that it's possible that the players of Eve are the problem for CCP. They may have some fantastic Sov solutions out there that would transform null-sec completely and make it a very competitive and exciting place to be, but they can't ever implement them because the changes would require a reset of nullsec. This would **** off their primary playerbase, so we're stuck.
Same with POS' stuff. They probably have some great fixes that would be easy to code, but it would require a complete reset.

In the interest of communication, maybe CCP should approach the community about such things, if they exist. Maybe they'll find out that null-sec is actually open to going that far if it means a much better solution (it's a stretch, but I'm feeling optimistic today).


It's just a law of symmetry.

How many times have we read people demanding EvE to forever stick to an early 2000 game play, where you MUST be super-social, super committed, join super corps, basically live EvE (this usually happens in pro null seccers vs everyone else)? Else you are meant to have a miserable life, don't deserve any kind of reward, should possibly die slowly eaten alive by scarabs.

But many know this is not early 2000 any more and the world has changed and with it the playerbase has changed as well. Many MMOs had to adapt to the new players RL induced necessities or died.


In the same fashion, the glorious pre-2000 developers days have gone.

Even CCP employees often blame a lot the elder CCP developers and their "spaghetti, inestricable code" and even design decisions. But then, THOSE were the old school devs with loads and loads of vision.
Yes they coded in a furious and confused way yet THEY brought EvE to life not the SCRUM era employees.

Those early devs would also imagine those "Jesus expansions" and then deliver them - usually with tons of mistakes, incidents a la boot.ini but in the end the stuff was delivered.
Over time natural turnover, promotion etc. made those early devs slowly disappear or lose contact with the playerbase needs. They slowly got replaced by "new gen" devs and designers.

Technically these are more orderly, more adherent to good practices, more... a lot of stuff. Yet there's somehow less "Insanity and genius" about them, the epic taste has gone. Sure, having 2 years of bugfixes is nice and all, but is this all what we can aim to now? It's little creativity at work here. Worse, they are losing contact with the ever running evolution in the rest of the gaming world.
The gaming world don't care for academic achievements like proving a console game could attach into an existing MMO, it cared to get Wormholes. It cared to get playable WiS not a proof of concept engine.

Anyway CCP should try and get back some of those scarce visionary designers.

Imagine what a guy like Chris Taylor or Chris Roberts could do to EvE. People that could single handedly affect the gaming industry just because they thought farter and higher.
EvE should routinely beat itself. EvE should not just have "emergent gameplay" but used to be and should return being "emergent developing".

Example: EvE started with a revolutionary concept - and underlying technology - to allow a one shard universe.
That was emergent developing.

Example of the new course: TiDi. It's a nice concept but it's a "defensive, defeated guy approach" to tackle the issue it tries to fix. Had it been the "real" CCP they'd have concoted something absolutely incredible and bold, like i.e. introducing multi-threaded clusters, sub-grid dynamic players entities management and so on. All of this possibly created in a small room full of smoke, furiously coding 18h a day "a la old times" and possibly with who knows how many issues. But in the end it'd give a new generation of lag-less gameplay.

But as I said above, it's not golden times any more. Players would not accept having a less than 99.95% servers functionality even with such a feature being delivered. And devs would not accept the "18h a day in a small room full of smoke" old way of delivering stuff.

Therefore we are in a post-golden times gaming era, where players are not the ones we could have back in the day, nor developers.

This is a good post. Someone at CCP should read.
Alphax45
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#94 - 2013-11-17 22:31:05 UTC
Rubicon is giving some new features (mobile depots, SoE ships, warp changes) and I'm on the side of believing CCP does have a plan here that will include fixes to existing and some cool new features. Maybe we should give them a chance before we rage.
Ila Dace
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#95 - 2013-11-17 23:01:53 UTC
CCP Devs have said the old POS code is impossible.

Players have said "No really, fix POSes".

Sometimes it's cheaper and easier to rewrite than to fix. I think it's likely that the new deployable structures serve as the first cut for the foundation of entirely new player owned starbase system. They can't tear the old one up and replace it without taking two years to do it, but they can do it in small, polished, useful pieces.

But OMG they're not doing exactly what I think they should... so we get threads like this.

If House played Eve: http://i.imgur.com/y7ShT.jpg

But in purple, I'm stunning!
Utremi Fasolasi
La Dolce Vita
#96 - 2013-11-17 23:13:15 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
JamDunc wrote:
I don't mean they are about to start making us all space barbies again, I mean the mistakes they made in the past could be about to repeat themselves.


You must be the last EVE Player to not know that IncanaDebacle had nothing, nothing to do with Avatars. At ALL.

It was the incomplete nature of CQ, and with only the Minnie CQ available. And the lack of avatar interaction and a sealed Door. That...or a static picture of The Door were the options when docking.

Had nothing to do with your barbies themselves. Leave them out of it.

derp.


You forgot the part about it not being optional and literally melting some folks older video cards.

And the incomplete NEX. It was all rushed out the door too quickly.

The NPE got a huge buff in that expansion though which the bittervets forget because it didn't affect them.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#97 - 2013-11-17 23:49:10 UTC
Abulurd Boniface wrote:
Rekkr Nordgard wrote:
Rubicon will not be another Incarna for the simple fact that Rubicon is utterly lackluster in content, both promised and delivered. CCP's strategy seems to be that if they don't offer big features, then there will never be a big blowup. And thus we get our current situation - mediocre patches and a slow motion train wreck.


I keep reading this kind of comment and I'm getting a little tired of it.

It's not that you're not entitled to your opinion, by all means do express yourself freely. It's the straight-through-the-floor negativity that gets me.

So, do tell us, if it was up to you, your decision entirely, to be minutely executed by CCP: what would you want Rubicon to do for you? You are restricted by nothing at all. Go wild!


This, I see the ultra negative posts and I imagine middle aged min in diapers throwing a fit lol.

It all depends on what a person's expectations are. Most expansions that have come to EVE since I started playing didn't really give me (personally) anything new or interesting to play with. I didn't ***** about it, but then again I was (and am) happy with EVE online as it is. Many gamers it seems to me have really small attnetion spans when it comes to this kind of thing.

This expansion, however, is going to offer a whole boat load of new things for me to use, like rapid (I do wish they'd go ahead and call them "burst") launcers for my battleships, a new cruiser I'ma ching to get into, and mobil structures that are gioing to be so useful to me as an explorer, it will be like when I trained carriers and Blops all over again lol. That totally leaves aside the fact that I'm am SO gonna shove a Bation mode Dual ASB Vargur up the Blood Raiders collective butt-cracks and solo their 10/10 for th 1st time ever lol.

Even the things I don't use much (like interceptors and dictors) are going to change the game. The implications of the warp changes and siphons and such can't even really be predicted. I can't begin to imagine how people are going to use the new toys of rubicon in PVP.

Like I said before, I really really couldn't be CCP. Just watching them have to deal with persnickety as hell players who somehow think that paying a company 15 bucks a month makes them stock holders (with a controlling interest no less) is hard enough lol.
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#98 - 2013-11-18 01:01:48 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
persnickety
TIL a new word.

Thanks ! :D
Xavier Higdon
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#99 - 2013-11-18 02:16:53 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
So when is EvE dying?

*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#100 - 2013-11-18 02:23:14 UTC
Xavier Higdon wrote:
So when is EvE dying?


According to the forums, 2003.